Coworker Break-In

[tkopp]

I have a coworker named Mike. Mike owns a couple handguns, practices about once a month.

This morning Mike came to me at work visibly shaken. He lives alone, and last night he heard a sound upstairs. While he wasn't sure it was anything, he grabbed his pistol (a stainless 9mm Smith I wasn't familiar with) and went upstairs to check it out.

When he reached his back patio, he saw his sliding glass door jimmied open, with three black males just entering his home. They were carrying empty trash bags for loot. He racked his slide (stored full mag empty chamber) and pointed at the lead burglar, puling the trigger.

Click. Jam. Mike was resourceful. He yelled, "Get the **** out before I start killing people!" None of them noticed his gun was jammed, and they departed post haste. On his back porch he found a big raw steak -- a plan for distracting his dog.

He asked me to figure out why his gun was jammed. Now, I own a .45 and a .380. The solution wasn't immediately obvious to me, but I suggested his ammo was probably out of spec. He argued that couldn't be! He'd fired this ammo many times before. Why, this Mak 9mm ammo was top grade hollowpoints!

His top two rounds were makarov. The rest of the mag was largo. Don't ask me why he didn't notice the rounds he put in his mag were completely different lengths, but there you go. The stamp around the primer said 9mm on every round, so why not?

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

Luger is .355-.356. Makarov is .363-.365. I'm surprised that he managed to get the Makarov to chamber/fire before. If so, his chamber has to be badly out of spec.

 

[Hold My Own]

Wow..

I'm not familiar with the Makarov, but I'm glad that your friend is alright. He did some extraordinary thinking on his feet by yelling for them to get out. I understand he could have confused two rounds though. I dropped two boxes of ammo before (7.62x39, and 7.62x51) and there were rounds everywhere and I got a few of the rounds confused at first glance.

 

[Trebor]

To clarify:

The gun is a S&W in 9x19MM, correct?

The ammo was 9mm Makarov (9x18MM) and 9mm Largo? (What's the MM of that?)

Man, he needs a good lesson in "What 9mm is what."

Tell him this:

His gun is a 9x19mm pistol. 9x19mm ammo is also called - 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, and 9mm NATO. If it doesn't say, "9x19MM, 9mm Luger, 9mm Parabellum, or 9mm NATO" on the box, don't try to shoot it through that gun.

9mm Makarov (9x18), 9mm Largo, and 9mm Corto/9mm Shor (9x17) are RIGHT OUT.

 

[highorder]

He's lucky to be alive. They could have rushed him and beat him to death.

Some education is in order. Hopefully they won't come back.

 

[tkopp]

Trebor:

I'm sure he was just confused when he told me the ammo in the mag had fired before. We had a nice discussion about 9mm Kurtz, 9mm Browning, 9mm Makarov, 9mm Largo, 9mm Luger, etc. Then I showed him my .45 and he decided on the spot to go get a less confusing caliber! Until I told him about .45 super. Somehow I think he wouldn't be confused by .45 long colt and .45-70.

Now that I'm rested, some thoughts;

These guys had some means of climbing in to enter on the second floor. Mike thought he didn't need a dowel or pin making his sliding door more secure because it was elevated ten feet.

'Get a dog!' He has one. They brought a steak. He tossed it, and who knows if it was laced with something. It takes an expensive, well-trained dog to ignore a treat like that.

The burglars worked as a team. This was a three on one situation. They know there's safety in numbers, and who knows if there was backup in a vehicle down below.

 

[psyopspec]

9mm Largo? (What's the MM of that?)

9mmx23. Interesting, I didn't know Smith made any handguns in this caliber.

 

[Trebor]

Then I showed him my .45 and he decided on the spot to go get a less confusing caliber! Until I told him about .45 super.

Don't forget about .45 GAP.

It's especially confusing to newbies since Glock makes pistols in both .45 ACP and .45 Glock Auto Pistol (GAP). I have seen people confuse the two before.

 

[highorder]

The $64,000 question:

Why do you think he was he targeted?

A second floor entry, planning ahead for his dog, etc.
Is he involved in illegal activity? Recreational drugs?

 

[walker944]

Sounds like Mike might be heading down the same path as before, with potential confusing rounds: 45 super...45 GAP...45ACP???

Incidentally, I've never even heard of 45 super. It's certainly not a very common round.

 

[hacksaw]

personally...

A) Your friend got lucky!

B) He needs a different pistol/cartridge combo, or better yet an 870 or Mossy 500.....

 

[MortalWombat]

He's lucky to be alive. They could have rushed him and beat him to death.

Yeah, I was thinking his ammo mistake may have prevented even bigger headaches down the road. The chances of him getting all three guys are probably a lot less than at least one of them getting away and coming back later for retaliation if he had shot one or two of them.

 

[highorder]

MortalWombat said,

Yeah, I was thinking his ammo mistake may have prevented even bigger headaches down the road. The chances of him getting all three guys are probably a lot less than at least one of them getting away and coming back later for retaliation if he had shot one or two of them.

That sounds suspiciously like, "don't defend yourself, you'll just make things worse."

Thats not what you meant, right?

 

[Shadow 7D]

Wow, he was lucky, the way I understand it, you "can" shoot 9mm (para, nato, etc) in a 9mak, but not reverse due to the size difference, don't know about 9 largo (baynard??) as that is 9 x 21 or 23, I forget.

Wow, take a moment to talk to him about ammo and the differences, Wikipedia is a good spot to start, and security.

Otherwise, take him to the bar and buy him a drink, then (next day) take him to the range and sign him up for a class or two, talk to him about a CCW.

 

[Jbabbler]

So why would he have 9x23, 9x18 and 9x19 rounds? Does he own weapons chambered for all of those calibers? Incidentally, had the 9x18 MAK gone off the gun would not have reacted favorably and he could have injured himself quite severly.

 

[tkopp]

Originally posted by walker944

Incidentally, I've never even heard of 45 super. It's certainly not a very common round.

I hadn't heard of it either. I bought a box of .45 super back during the ammo shortage and ran a couple mags of it through my officer 1911. That stuff packs quite a kick! That was probably Mike's situation too -- he shoots every couple months. Probably bought this stuff when it was the only selection of hollow points on the shelves. His pistol's set up in 9x19. Got him some Speer+Ps and he's set.

As to why he was targeted -- I'm not sure. Guy drives a lexus with tinted windows, leather interior, which is a little above his pay grade at the pawn shop, but he just started with us recently. I'm not sure what he did before he came on with us. You'd think if this were directed at him, though, that one or more of the people who came in would have been armed. He makes no secret that he shoots recreationally, even if his frequency of shooting is a little laughable to many who post here.

 

[9mmepiphany]

while we can blame "Mike" for not knowing and should try to educate him...i have a feeling he had some help in his "selection" of ammo.

i've been in store where someone will come to the counter and ask for "9mm ammo" and be handed any box that says "9mm" on it. i've even seen a seller tell a customer that .380 is "the same thing". the funniest is wtaching a clerk hand .380 ammo to someone wanting .38 spl..."it'll fit". actually 9x17mm and 9x18mm ammo will fit and fire in a 9x19mm handgun

just as likely is the situation that someone "gave him" some 9mm ammo they had laying around

i don't think a switch in caliber will help, he just need to be educated in recognition of the correct ammo.

to address the shotgun recommendation. if someone doesn't chamber a round in a gun for HD, what makes you think he'd be able to chamber a round in a shotgun under stress

 

[Jbabbler]

actually 9x17mm and 9x18mm ammo will fit and fire in a 9x19mm handgun

I have to disagree with the 9x18 portion of your post. You would be hard pressed to find a 9x19 gun that could survive a 9x18 round being fired through it. A 9x18 mak round is 9.27 mm (0.365 in) in diameter while the average OD of a 9x19 luger round is 9.03 mm (0.356 in). I wanted to use a spent 9x18 case as a snap-cap in my 3913 a few weeks ago and couldn't even get my Steyr S9, M9 KTP11 or S&W 3913 to go completely into battery.

 

[highorder]

Guy drives a lexus with tinted windows, leather interior, which is a little above his pay grade at the pawn shop, but he just started with us recently. I'm not sure what he did before he came on with us. You'd think if this were directed at him, though, that one or more of the people who came in would have been armed.

Works at a pawn shop? Check.
Drives a fancy car? Check.
Not sure what he did before, or in his spare time? well...

Maybe the guys that broke in know more than you think...

Also, what reason do you have to believe they weren't armed?
Knowing when to leave is smarter than drawing on someone that has you in their sights.

He's lucky, thats for sure.

 

[Mike J]

I have went into a pawn shop/gun shop to buy ammo & when asking for 9x19 been given one box of 9x19 & one box of 9x18(9mm makarov). I caught it & got the correct ammo but all it takes is a moment of someone not paying attention. I always double check to make sure I've been given the correct ammunition before paying. If your friend didn't realize there are several different 9mm cartridges it would be very easy for this to happen.

 

[bluntarski]

A revolver would be a good choice in this case. I personally don't think you can go wrong with a .357 magnum. You can fire 38 specials thru them to save some money when shooting targets and there are lots of different loads available between those two sizes. It won't jam under pressure like a semi-auto could, and it is safer in my opinion against accidental mishandling, loading/unloading, etc.

 

[21bubba]

Glad your friend came out of this o.k. In my opinion anybody that is breaking in or has broken into my house will get shot. Retreating or hiding is not going to happen. "What if they are armed"? All the more reason to shoot.

There seems to be more and more members on here that believe that there is almost always some way to keep from using a weapon.

 

[LoneCoon]

I have fired .380 out of a PA-63. It fires, but doesn't cycle reliably, it's not accurate, and it bulges the cases something fierce.

Your coworker is really lucky. Tell him to get some more range time in, and pay attention to the head stamps on his ammo. Hopefully he has learned a valuable lesson in defensive ammo selection, namely MAKE SURE IT WORKS RELIABLY IN YOUR GUN. Your $40 a box ammo doesn't do you any good if it jams on every round.

It's good that you gave him a lesson in the madness that is 9mm, I hope he never has to deal with that again.

 

[hammerklavier]

9x18 is 9.27 mm in diameter because the case is not tapered. Just line the ammo up and your friend should be able to see the difference. Anyway, lesson learned.

Your friend was resourceful, quick thinking on his part (despite slow thinking earlier). God must really love that lead man, despite his criminal activities. Pray that he'll turn his life around.

 

[MortalWombat]

That sounds suspiciously like, "don't defend yourself, you'll just make things worse."

Wow. Where did you get that? I was commenting on the actual outcome caused by the gun not firing, in which neither the home owner nor anyone else got killed. Which, I'm sure you'll agree, would be more of a headache to deal with than the burglars running away.