Training is the way to win. Personal expierience!
- Thread starter Ivy Mike
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Ding Dongs don't make people do stupid things that get themselves and others maimed and killed perhaps? :banghead:
Perhaps you're wrong. Obesity is a major killer. Alcohol doesn't make people do stupid things....people do stupid things on their own with or without alcohol. Don't trust yourself under the influence? Don't drink. Don't trust yourself with a gun? Don't own one. Keep bangin' your head. 
Biker
Biker
CAnnoneer
Member
Problem is even if you magically take alcohol away, stupid people would just find some other way to hurt themselves and others. It is the human nature that is at fault, not the substances. If there are no stupid and weak people, substances would not be an issue.
One thing I have to say is that reasoning with a chemically altered individual is a waste of time and the same can be said of those with a poor outlook on life who look for fight! Once they have perceived something, it becomes their reality! They simply do not have capacity for rationalized thought! You will be wasting precious time, and the possibility of being cornered or ganged up on!
You have basically three options.
#1 Choose carefully where and how you park
#2 Distance yourself from the discussion
#3 Prepare to defend yourself or your loved ones
Of course there is another option listed, do not engage in ETOH ingestion in public!
You have basically three options.
#1 Choose carefully where and how you park
#2 Distance yourself from the discussion
#3 Prepare to defend yourself or your loved ones
Of course there is another option listed, do not engage in ETOH ingestion in public!
carebear
Member
Keep in mind that just because someone has been drinking does not = serious impairment. Yet the whiff of alcohol could justify a "drunk in public" charge (it may not need a BAC to stick).
A beer or two does not by definition turn every previously rational individual into a raving idiot, nor does it make them an unguided missile of booze-filled destruction on the road.
The idea that any amount of alcohol alone can cause a person to automatically make bad decisions isn't that far from claiming inanimate objects can either. It is still up to the individual to control their consumption to what they know they can handle and bear the consequences of misjudging.
I am not forced every time I have a beer to drink myself insensible nor am I any more effectively impaired after doing so (having 1 over an hours time) due to my mass and tolerance than I would be after say staying up a little late.
I know my limits, I control my drinking decisions based on what I plan to do in the immediate future and I accept responsibility for the consequences. Alcohol may impair the quality of one's decisions after too much, the trick is to make good decisions before hand, not turn into Carrie Nation.
A beer or two does not by definition turn every previously rational individual into a raving idiot, nor does it make them an unguided missile of booze-filled destruction on the road.
The idea that any amount of alcohol alone can cause a person to automatically make bad decisions isn't that far from claiming inanimate objects can either. It is still up to the individual to control their consumption to what they know they can handle and bear the consequences of misjudging.
I am not forced every time I have a beer to drink myself insensible nor am I any more effectively impaired after doing so (having 1 over an hours time) due to my mass and tolerance than I would be after say staying up a little late.
I know my limits, I control my drinking decisions based on what I plan to do in the immediate future and I accept responsibility for the consequences. Alcohol may impair the quality of one's decisions after too much, the trick is to make good decisions before hand, not turn into Carrie Nation.
ThreadKiller
Member
I agree it is the imbiber who is ultimately responsible for his/her actions. It is not the substance's fault. Somewhere along the line a human being made a choice and they are entirely to blame.
I'd like to have a dollar for every post I've read here and on other gun related forums that involve the use of alcohol and violence. Seems to me like it's just a darn good idea to stay away from places that serve alcohol, particularly late at night.
If trouble was my goal, bars are where I'd go look first.
Tim
I'd like to have a dollar for every post I've read here and on other gun related forums that involve the use of alcohol and violence. Seems to me like it's just a darn good idea to stay away from places that serve alcohol, particularly late at night.
If trouble was my goal, bars are where I'd go look first.
Tim
cracked butt
Member
The fight was probably avoidable, you probably could have gotten hurt, the badguy could have had a knife or a gun, you probably let your ego drive you where you shouldn't have gone, blah, blah, blah.... That type of monday morning rationalizing reminds me of the phrase "If grandma had a penis, she'd be grandpa"
I've been there, done that, more than a few times when I was younger and much more reckless, I've also walked away from many more guys that were even bigger A-holes than the one described in the story. The important thing is that you came out of the incident relatively unhurt and probably a bit wiser, and an A-hole got his arse handed to him in a way where he probably won't be showing much injury the day after.
You got to try out your KM and I'm certainly not going to be the one who throws stones or faults you for it, but next time try to avoid the situation all together.
I've been there, done that, more than a few times when I was younger and much more reckless, I've also walked away from many more guys that were even bigger A-holes than the one described in the story. The important thing is that you came out of the incident relatively unhurt and probably a bit wiser, and an A-hole got his arse handed to him in a way where he probably won't be showing much injury the day after.
You got to try out your KM and I'm certainly not going to be the one who throws stones or faults you for it, but next time try to avoid the situation all together.
Biker,
Can you honestly tell me you've seen no one that behaved in a reckless or inappropriately aggressive way because they were intoxicated?
Or are you saying that such people have got the be such idiots in the first place or they wouldn't have gotten that drunk in the first place?
Reckless people drink recklessly which makes them impared reckless people?
I want to be sure we're disagreeing based on semantics.
Ding dongs bad example. Stuffing your piehole with crap won't cause a wreck (unless you're diving after that dropped blob of gooey crap while driving) while getting behind the wheel after slamming a few increases your potential for a wreck directly proportional to the amount of alcohol consumed.
Can you honestly tell me you've seen no one that behaved in a reckless or inappropriately aggressive way because they were intoxicated?
Or are you saying that such people have got the be such idiots in the first place or they wouldn't have gotten that drunk in the first place?
Reckless people drink recklessly which makes them impared reckless people?
I want to be sure we're disagreeing based on semantics.
Ding dongs bad example. Stuffing your piehole with crap won't cause a wreck (unless you're diving after that dropped blob of gooey crap while driving) while getting behind the wheel after slamming a few increases your potential for a wreck directly proportional to the amount of alcohol consumed.
OP
OP
Ivy Mike
Member
Wow, this thread certainly grew.
Allow me to address a few points that some have brought up.
1. This fight was PROBABLY avoidable. You'll notice that I mentioned this before.
2. Yes I drove away. The guy was pissed about someone in his car. I wasn't about to walk away when some injured, angry drunk has a car. Car vs pedestrian = loss for pedestrian. I feel I made the wiser choice.
3. Training teaches you to follow what works. I reasoned for myself when I enrolled in Krav Maga training. I understood that I had little fight expierience and that somebody older and wiser than I knew what they were talking about. Had I just punched the guy once, the threat may not have stopped.
You can't tell me to shoot to stop a threat in one sentence and then tell me to pull a punch in the next. I attacked until the threat was gone.
4. I closed distance with the attacker AFTER the initial blows had been struck. I did this because the more damaging attacks don't work from great distance. I delivered what I thought would work, as quickly and as forcefully as possible.
5. The attack wasn't directed at my friend. The verbal barrage was. The first punch was directed at me. I responded in kind.
6. Drinking and using a weapon is a felony in this state. 1st DUI is a slap on the wrist. Better to be stopped by a cop and sleep it off in jail than stopped by an Audi and sleep it off in a morgue.
7. We tried removing alcohol. Prohibition filled morgues rather quickly. The war on drugs still does it to this day.
What I gathered from this incident is as follows.
1. Shut up and let bad guy walk away.
2. If he attacks, strike back until threat is gone
3. Get out of the area.
Its the same thing I learned during my CCW class.
1. Avoid conflict if possible
2. Shoot to stop
(obviously you don't leave the scene of a shooting)
My mistakes did not include getting out of the car. My friend was unarmed and alone until I stood with him. I don't think I could call myself a friend unless I was available to aid.
If we both had driven off, it would have been better, but it wasn't an option at this point.
I should have stayed quiet or even moved to the other side of the car. Mistake one.
I should have walked back inside, ordered some water and begun to sober up. Mistake two.
Thats about all I count.
Allow me to address a few points that some have brought up.
1. This fight was PROBABLY avoidable. You'll notice that I mentioned this before.
2. Yes I drove away. The guy was pissed about someone in his car. I wasn't about to walk away when some injured, angry drunk has a car. Car vs pedestrian = loss for pedestrian. I feel I made the wiser choice.
3. Training teaches you to follow what works. I reasoned for myself when I enrolled in Krav Maga training. I understood that I had little fight expierience and that somebody older and wiser than I knew what they were talking about. Had I just punched the guy once, the threat may not have stopped.
You can't tell me to shoot to stop a threat in one sentence and then tell me to pull a punch in the next. I attacked until the threat was gone.
4. I closed distance with the attacker AFTER the initial blows had been struck. I did this because the more damaging attacks don't work from great distance. I delivered what I thought would work, as quickly and as forcefully as possible.
5. The attack wasn't directed at my friend. The verbal barrage was. The first punch was directed at me. I responded in kind.
6. Drinking and using a weapon is a felony in this state. 1st DUI is a slap on the wrist. Better to be stopped by a cop and sleep it off in jail than stopped by an Audi and sleep it off in a morgue.
7. We tried removing alcohol. Prohibition filled morgues rather quickly. The war on drugs still does it to this day.
What I gathered from this incident is as follows.
1. Shut up and let bad guy walk away.
2. If he attacks, strike back until threat is gone
3. Get out of the area.
Its the same thing I learned during my CCW class.
1. Avoid conflict if possible
2. Shoot to stop
(obviously you don't leave the scene of a shooting)
My mistakes did not include getting out of the car. My friend was unarmed and alone until I stood with him. I don't think I could call myself a friend unless I was available to aid.
If we both had driven off, it would have been better, but it wasn't an option at this point.
I should have stayed quiet or even moved to the other side of the car. Mistake one.
I should have walked back inside, ordered some water and begun to sober up. Mistake two.
Thats about all I count.
OP
OP
Ivy Mike
Member
mattw,
There have been several threads that have dealt with various effective fighting styles.
The major ones are Jiu Jitsu, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling and in smaller numbers, Krav Maga.
Folks go on for hours about what works better and what does not. The main thing to remember is that any training is usually better than no training. You will be well served by a style that has a realistic focus on fighting.
Beware of some teachers that teach for competition. They don't take into account certain real-world aspects.
The best thing you can do is to go observe a class or two. Most schools worth the ground they're built on will allow you to observe before signing up. Talk with an instructor, see if you like what he/she has to say.
There have been several threads that have dealt with various effective fighting styles.
The major ones are Jiu Jitsu, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling and in smaller numbers, Krav Maga.
Folks go on for hours about what works better and what does not. The main thing to remember is that any training is usually better than no training. You will be well served by a style that has a realistic focus on fighting.
Beware of some teachers that teach for competition. They don't take into account certain real-world aspects.
The best thing you can do is to go observe a class or two. Most schools worth the ground they're built on will allow you to observe before signing up. Talk with an instructor, see if you like what he/she has to say.
ShackleMeNot
Member
:banghead:
The legal consequences are the worst potential consequences of drinking and driving?
How old are you?
Wisdom & Prudence
Probably not the wisest course of action, I don't fault you for coming to the aid of your buddy. Responing in a smart manner to a drunken fool's verbiage was not prudent, though understandable. Keeping up the attack until your opponent was no longer a threat was the right answer.
As far as getting in your car & driving, I would only squawk if you had imbbed "too much." What is "too much?" So much that you operate your vehicle in a fashion that is more impaired than a station-flipping, cell-phone-talking, latte-swilling soccer-mom with 3 kids raising Caine in the back seats of her minivan. (The legal limit forced on the states by MADD & their amen corner is too low, IMO.)
Righteous Fanny-Whacking
Drunk-boy earned his licks. Frankly, I don't have enough time to administer a$$-whoopings to everyone who has earned them. It is nice to know that at least some are being applied.
******
Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was single, I had a few similar such incidents. The difference was, I was usually sober. (I just don't drink much when out & about.)
Drunk folks can do awfully irrational and belligerent things. Among them, is accost 6', 250lb powerlifters with a couple years of Taiho-Ryu under their belts who also are wearing steel-toe engineer boots. It usually did not end well for "drunk, belligerent guy." I was a bit more aggressive and less tolerant of jacka$$ery back then, too. I'm much more mellow, nowadays.
Probably not the wisest course of action, I don't fault you for coming to the aid of your buddy. Responing in a smart manner to a drunken fool's verbiage was not prudent, though understandable. Keeping up the attack until your opponent was no longer a threat was the right answer.
As far as getting in your car & driving, I would only squawk if you had imbbed "too much." What is "too much?" So much that you operate your vehicle in a fashion that is more impaired than a station-flipping, cell-phone-talking, latte-swilling soccer-mom with 3 kids raising Caine in the back seats of her minivan. (The legal limit forced on the states by MADD & their amen corner is too low, IMO.)
Righteous Fanny-Whacking
Drunk-boy earned his licks. Frankly, I don't have enough time to administer a$$-whoopings to everyone who has earned them. It is nice to know that at least some are being applied.
******
Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I was single, I had a few similar such incidents. The difference was, I was usually sober. (I just don't drink much when out & about.)
Drunk folks can do awfully irrational and belligerent things. Among them, is accost 6', 250lb powerlifters with a couple years of Taiho-Ryu under their belts who also are wearing steel-toe engineer boots. It usually did not end well for "drunk, belligerent guy." I was a bit more aggressive and less tolerant of jacka$$ery back then, too. I'm much more mellow, nowadays.
odysseus
Member
Have been eating popcorn through this thread until I see...
I think you are changing the story a little. So when you went into your car and your friend went into his just before the incident, you were not intending to drive off while intoxicated anyway? Just admit it - it was wrong for you to be doing this and others here like myself are pointing this out. Have you lost any family members to DUI drivers? Ohh it's just a slap on the wrist for you...
Now that I am writing, 2 more cents...
I agree you needed to defend your friend. The BG was obviously out of his mind. That's what friends do.
You encouraged the situation a bit with your challenge to him. He got what he deserved throwing down on you, but from what you wrote - this was poorly handled challenging him to fight you. To tie this in with your martial arts instruction, well I believe you are not learning the humble art of avoidance and deflecting, something Eastern thought teaches you and maybe krav maga doesn't?
You should have called the police after the incident. That was a poor choice to just go away. Also, it again shows you were were intoxicated and making poor decisions, and you knew it too.
I think you are changing the story a little. So when you went into your car and your friend went into his just before the incident, you were not intending to drive off while intoxicated anyway? Just admit it - it was wrong for you to be doing this and others here like myself are pointing this out. Have you lost any family members to DUI drivers? Ohh it's just a slap on the wrist for you...
Now that I am writing, 2 more cents...
I agree you needed to defend your friend. The BG was obviously out of his mind. That's what friends do.
You encouraged the situation a bit with your challenge to him. He got what he deserved throwing down on you, but from what you wrote - this was poorly handled challenging him to fight you. To tie this in with your martial arts instruction, well I believe you are not learning the humble art of avoidance and deflecting, something Eastern thought teaches you and maybe krav maga doesn't?
You should have called the police after the incident. That was a poor choice to just go away. Also, it again shows you were were intoxicated and making poor decisions, and you knew it too.
OP
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Ivy Mike
Member
For those asking, I am 23 years of age.
The legal consequences were first and foremost on my mind. I never said I was too impaired to operate and use a weapon.
The State of Nevada does not permit a person to have in physical possesion, a firearm while intoxicated. It COULD be a felony. DUI is a weak misdemeanor. If you want to know, the legal limit for BAC in NV is 0.08. The legal BAC limit for possesion of a firearm is 0.10. Would I have been wiser to pull my weapon? Not knowing exactly what my BAC was at the time, I felt that erring on the side of caution and risking a DUI was more prudent than risking a crime that could have quite possibly turned into a felony charge with much greater ease than a DUI.
ShackleMeNot, yes, the legal consequences are the only things I would face by drinking and driving. I understand that I have no other obligation to the other people on the road other than those outlined by law. If somebody had died because of my actions, I would have faced the justice system and hopefully be rightly convicted of whatever charge suited the crime. I also felt that it was worth the risk to protect myself from further injury or death.
I was also presented with a compromising situation. There was a drunk, injured, angry man who had just been placed in that state by myself. He had a car. The best protection against being hit by a car is to be in something large enough to protect you...such as a building or another car. I elected to remove myself from the scene simply because my attacker was still there. I was avoiding further trouble. Did I risk the health and safety of others? Possibly.
Did I feel that the risk to my own health and safety was more important? Yes I did. I have no obligation to protect others.
No, I have not lost family members to DUI. I certainly hope I never do, but the only consequences I am concerned about are the legal ones. I have no other obligation to anybody or organization OTHER than the legal system.
I should not have called the police. The fact that I had won the fight could very possibly have landed an assault charge on my head. That is not something I am willing to risk, especially when I wasn't the assailant. I defended myself in kind.
I will not abstain from drink. I enjoy drinking and as it is the only substance that can be legally used to alter moods and perceptions, I will continue to enjoy it in quantity.
I still maintain that I only made two mistakes.
1. I didn't keep my mouth shut and escalated the fight.
2. I left instead of going inside and waiting for legal sobriety.
Remember folks, this is the High Road, not the High Horse.
The legal consequences were first and foremost on my mind. I never said I was too impaired to operate and use a weapon.
The State of Nevada does not permit a person to have in physical possesion, a firearm while intoxicated. It COULD be a felony. DUI is a weak misdemeanor. If you want to know, the legal limit for BAC in NV is 0.08. The legal BAC limit for possesion of a firearm is 0.10. Would I have been wiser to pull my weapon? Not knowing exactly what my BAC was at the time, I felt that erring on the side of caution and risking a DUI was more prudent than risking a crime that could have quite possibly turned into a felony charge with much greater ease than a DUI.
ShackleMeNot, yes, the legal consequences are the only things I would face by drinking and driving. I understand that I have no other obligation to the other people on the road other than those outlined by law. If somebody had died because of my actions, I would have faced the justice system and hopefully be rightly convicted of whatever charge suited the crime. I also felt that it was worth the risk to protect myself from further injury or death.
I was also presented with a compromising situation. There was a drunk, injured, angry man who had just been placed in that state by myself. He had a car. The best protection against being hit by a car is to be in something large enough to protect you...such as a building or another car. I elected to remove myself from the scene simply because my attacker was still there. I was avoiding further trouble. Did I risk the health and safety of others? Possibly.
Did I feel that the risk to my own health and safety was more important? Yes I did. I have no obligation to protect others.
No, I have not lost family members to DUI. I certainly hope I never do, but the only consequences I am concerned about are the legal ones. I have no other obligation to anybody or organization OTHER than the legal system.
I should not have called the police. The fact that I had won the fight could very possibly have landed an assault charge on my head. That is not something I am willing to risk, especially when I wasn't the assailant. I defended myself in kind.
I will not abstain from drink. I enjoy drinking and as it is the only substance that can be legally used to alter moods and perceptions, I will continue to enjoy it in quantity.
I still maintain that I only made two mistakes.
1. I didn't keep my mouth shut and escalated the fight.
2. I left instead of going inside and waiting for legal sobriety.
Remember folks, this is the High Road, not the High Horse.
odysseus
Member
The legal system changes, fairly and unfairly; moral and ethical obligations do not. My point is in regards to the latter. It's your free will, drive drunk - fine. As you say, you only care about how the legal implications effect you.
OP
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Ivy Mike
Member
odysseus said:
What moral and ethical obligations are those?
I have no moral obligation to do anything for anyone.
The obligation is a legal one. What is there to be mad about?
CAnnoneer
Member
I do not drink at all and so have no reference for comparison but would testify that sugar, chocolate, and coffee do alter moods and perceptions and yet are perfectly legal.
Frankly, I have always wondered if a 120 lbs lady on 4 large moccas is less impaired than a 240 lbs guy on 4 beers.
I'm not gettin' all of this indignation. First, the guy had a few brews but was alright to drive, in his opinion. And before anyone pipes in on this, yes, some folks can have a few brews and be perfectly safe to operate a motor vehicle. Second, he knocked a guy out who obviously deserved it. What is the problem?
It probably could've been avoided, but not all fights *should* be avoided, and I'll stand by that statement all day long.
Biker
It probably could've been avoided, but not all fights *should* be avoided, and I'll stand by that statement all day long.
Biker
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