Training is the way to win. Personal expierience!

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Ivy Mike

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For those that have peeked through a few martial arts threads, you have probably seen my posts on Krav Maga. I'm a fairly new guy to the art having studied it for just about 6 months.
Well, last night at a favorite pub, I was forced into puting it to use. Now, I didn't have my carry piece on me as I had planned on drinking. The Makarov was sleeping in the glove box of my car at the time which is where it always sits when I plan on consuming alcohol.
Anyway, down to the good part.

A buddy and I were finishing up for the evening and had paid our tabs and left. We had walked to our vehicles and he had gotten in his already. Just then, he (mike) jumps out and starts walking over to tell me something about plans for dinner tomorrow. Well, the moment he shut the car door, a man had just stepped out of the pub and was walking to his car. He began yelling at my friend. The scumbag was yelling obscenities and asking what Mike was doing in his (the scumbags) car. Mike was distancing himself from the irate man as I exited my car. Mike was trying to explain that he had not been in the guys car, but the guy wasn't having it.
Mike got to my car (only a few spaces away) and I was standing next to it at this point. The scumbag noticed that Mike was not alone, so he slowed his pace. He is stading a couple yards away and resumes yelling about Mike being in his car. Mike is explaining that he wasn't in the mans car and invited the man to go check it out to verify.
Again, the beligerence returns and he is calling Mike a liar.

At this point, he points to me and tells me to shut the f*** up and not open my mouth.
I informed him that I hadn't said anything and that he wouldn't speak to me that way. I had already begun (unwittingly...love that training) to position myself to fight. The guy told me that I needed to back down or he would swing on me.
Now, my reply probably wasn't too smart. I could have just said OK and let him finish his tirade. Well, the Irishman, fueled by beer, replied "and what if I don't?"
At this point, he threw the first punch at me. A little slowed by drink, I dodged a little late and incompletely. His sloppy hook struck a glancing blow high on my neck.
It wouldn't have mattered if he had missed altogether or had landed full force into my face. My fist was already moving. My hook was aimed much better and had more force behind it. It connected solidly with the side of his face; staggering him.
I would have stopped a year ago and waited to see what happened next. That was most certainly not the case last night. The training kicked in and I went to work. The drills ordered me to drive a few more punches home.
I had closed the gap after hitting him 3 or 4 times in the cheek and neck area. Now, I grabbed his shoulders and drove 2 knee strikes home into his abdomen. I suddenly noticed I couldn't deliver a third.
This was because he had fallen into me and then to the ground.

At this point, both Mike and I made a hasty exit. I debated calling the police, but decided against such a thing. I didn't feel like risking a public intoxication charge and possibly assault.

So, critique my night. What could I have done differently?
What would you have done?
 
So that was you! Next time you won't be so lucky, you little punk! And from now on, stay away from my car! :mad:

:p :D
 
Well, you could have defused the situation. Maybe.

Sometimes a man's pride kicks in and he won't back down (my in-laws are Irish, so I know how that can go :rolleyes: ), so, taking into consideration your big mouth, you did exactly what you're supposed to do: eliminate him as a threat before he has a chance to do you any more harm.
 
[monday morning QB]If he didn't want to punch you but instead stabbed you in the neck you probably wouldn't be posting this now. You let him get too close. OC might have been a better choice or not drinking and being in that situation at all.[/monday morning QB]
 
sounds cool, i wish someone around here taught classes like that krav maga stuff
 
Address the Threat....Done
Counterattack simultaniously...Done
Be aggressive...Done
Get the heck outa dodge...Done
:) :) :) :)

Aside from that make sure you make a 90 degree angle between his forearm and yours (Attack the weapon...)
Hope your neck isn't too sore.. :(
Hope his head hurts like hell. :D
 
I probably would have gone straight for the knee, soon as you see the sloppy hook coming go for the bridge. Get inside, get the clinch and start firing knees. If you're feeling nasty, snap the head down as soon as you get neck control and fire them straight to the face.

Good point about the possability of an edged weapon however ShackleMeNot. One of the reasons not getting into fights isn't a bad idea.

-Jenrick
 
shacklemenot, I thought about the possibility of a weapon ex post facto.
I had kinda watched him and didn't see a weapon, but that doesn't mean he wasn't armed. I don't carry any weapons when I drink. I guess you could count my keys, but otherwise, no OC, no knife, no gun, nothing. It's not worth the risk when I'm not clear headed. The state of NV REALLY looks down on weapons + drugs/alcohol.

I probably could have avoided the fight altogether if I woulda just shut up. Usually, I would just let them jabber on and wait for them to leave. But this guy was almost asking for it.

mattw, the beauty of Krav Maga isn't in the fancy moves or strikes or grappling. They teach you to use your instincts (making a fist to hit someone) to your advantage while overcoming the ones that don't benefit you.
The strikes are your basic punches and palm strikes. You use elbows and knees and feet. Kicks are very simple, knee/elbow strikes are very simple. Grappling is kept rather basic (I may go take some BJJ or wrestling later to expand my knowledge) My favorite part are the targeted attacks (eye gouging, groin strikes, box the ears) and small joint manipulation.
I didn't have need of small joint work last night nor did I need to attack the eyes. The other thing that my instructor stresses is escape. If you can stop the threat, get away as fast as you can to avoid further trouble (thats why we left so quickly) If you can hit them, stun them and run away, you should. Some KM teachers don't teach the escape part as heavily, although I feel they should.

KM's success is in its simplicity.
Any training is better than winging it though. Take something realistic.
BJJ, Muay Thai, wrestling, boxing would all be great arts to study. Obviously you will have to tailor the training to the situation (avoid holding the guy in guard if he has friends around) but at least you will have the knowledge.
 
Jenrick, after using my 20/20 hindsight, you would be right...sorta.

As stated earlier, I allowed the guy to get too close. If I had kept him at proper distance, I could have gone to more damaging attacks more quickly. I had already punched him 3 times (I landed a couple of them wrong and now my hand hurts) before moving in for the knee strikes.
I got hit, and while it is a definite possibility in a fight, I should have been more aware of what was going on.

Changes I would make:

1. Let him blow off steam and don't open my mouth.
if that wouldn't have worked
2. start kicking/kneeing first
3. Punch if required and choose a better type of punch. An uppercut to the jaw would have probably worked better or possibly a hard jab to the nose.

I don't think going for a hold or choke would have benefitted me in this situation. It may have calmed the guy down and he coulda walked away with less damage. That would have been his choice though.
Small joint manipulation (aka breaking fingers) wasn't necesary nor did I have the chance.
 
Well I'm glad that this worked out for you. Training certainly makes a difference. In this paticular situation, pulling a gun probably wouldn't have been the best way to deal with it, at least from a legal situation. And if the guy called your bluff, what do you do? Shoot an unamred drunk?

This is a great example of why folks that are serious about personal safety need to have some training. That training kicked in for you when you needed it. A lack of training might well have dictated a different end to your story.

If you had held your cool and just let the guy vent, you might have avoided the physcial thing all together though. Chalk it up to lessons learned, but stick with the training.

Good luck,
 
Does anyone know if there has been a thread that covers realistic fighting styles? I feel the need to enroll in some type of martial arts class or something, i don't get in enough fights to gain experience so i think i need some training.

On topic: I am not as nice as some of you, i don't like to be insulted or talked-down to.. wether the guy is drunk or not I would not have let him talk to me that way.
 
If you felt like you needed to create some distance, a teep (Muay Thai front push kick) could have given you that. A solid one, with either the heel or the toe, in the gut will push them back and usually make them very unhappy. You can throw it from extremely close range too with practice (it's my go to in the ring when I'm fighting someone who has a better clinch then I do).

I'm assuming you actually punched him closed fist in the head. If you did, defineately work your open palm strikes, there much more effective then a closed fist when striking hard areas of the body. Also you don't have to worry about breaking a hand.

The jab to the nose isn't a bad idea, but if you miss you'll contact his forehead, which can easily break your hand. Same with his jaw, most likely you'll have a broken hand. An open handed strike to the nose can still break it real easy, but you don't have to worry about breaking your hand. Sure you can't through an uppercut as effectively, but if your in that close start throwing elbows instead. A vertical elbow would have ended it right there.

Overall though, your in one piece, your buds in one piece, and no body ended up in the hospital or jail. Pretty good all around if you ask me.

-Jenrick
 
Avoiding bars (and thereby missing out on bar parking lot tussles with Bubba Drunker'n'U) might be a good start on doing something different... next Bubba might have a knife, or three friends with pipes, or (gasp) maybe even an illegally carried gun. That Farnam line comes to mind...

lpl/nc (you asked...)
 
It's already been pointed out that you should have avoided the situation in the first place. If you want to go the bar scene then don't drink alcoholic beverages. While the girls don't get prettier as the night progresses everyone sure seems to get funnier if your the sober one.

If you do get into a potential confrontation don't let your "manhood" (which actually translates into delayed adolescence) get in the way from getting out of there alive. You can't tell where a street confrontation is going to end up so it's almost always better to give some loudmouth the right of way. (this does not apply to every situation, but if it's some jackass 'woofing' let'em bark)

You never have any idea whether the BG has pulled a knife or not so unless you are 110% sure the haven't you should treat any street attack as if there's a blade in their fist. You should train for this.

Hit the hard parts with an open hand and the soft parts with a closed one (but best of all is have something in your hand to hit both with). If you bust your hand on some idiot's thick skull you reduce your ability to survive. You may also find that years from now you end up with all the little cumulative damage to your hands coming back to haunt you (advice from someone nearly 50 with many years of MA abuse on their hands).

If you train seriously enough you will eventually get to the point where you will be so confident in your abiltiy to protect yourself that you will not feel threatened by these idiots and won't get angry enough to respond to their BS.
 
The thread title seems a little obvious. I can't think of anyone who spouts that the way to win isn't through training.

What should you have done differently? Everything you did escalated the situation until it was over.

You should not have left your car in the first place. Your buddy should have gotten in his.

You chose to stand and confront (by physical presence) and when told to shut up, you told him that he would not talk to you that way. He verbally challenged you and you returned the challenge. He swung, you swung. What the hell were you thinking by letting a beligerant drunk close distance on you, verbally assaulting you, and get close enough that he could strike you and strike you first? Allowing this to happen is bad on so many levels. Judging by your comments, you let the guy close in because you wanted to fight him.

While you had not made good decisions up to this point, you had a second chance. Seeing your blow staggered him, you could have broken off the engagement and left, but you decided to administer some additional punishment. This is maybe okay, maybe not in terms of your use of force, but the stupid part was that you closed the distance on the guy when you did not need to do so. Anytime you are in close proximity to a bad guy, the risk to you increases. Closer proximity means less skill is required to do harm. The drunk may have gotten lucky or he could have been suckering you in with the stagger act. I have seen it happen. You are lucky he didn't stick you with a knife when you closed the gap to administer additional punishment.

This statement disturbs me,
The drills ordered me to drive a few more punches home.

It gives the impression that you don't have the ability to reason for yourself and that you mindlessly follow directions. Given the statement and how you reacted, I don't think you were reasoning very well at the time, certainly not thinking smartly.

It is great you have martial arts training. It is a shame they didn't teach you better on how not to be in a fight, how to not escalate a fight. Sure, you won the fight, but it was a fight that you need need not have had. As near as I can tell, you did everything in your power to make yourself part of the confrontation that initially didn't involve you and to get into a fight. And where this potentially gets really bad is that you exchanged blows over nothing of consequence and while you may have won the fight, you could have lost the war. If the drunk transferred any bodily fluids to you while you beat him and he is HIV positive, then your great martial arts training and poor judgment may be what kills you if you managed to get infected as a result of the fluid transfer. All the martial arts training in the world won't protect you from HIV.

Truly amazing about this incident is that you got into a fight with a guy that wasn't your problem and it was a fight stemming from this guy's incorrect belief that your buddy was in his car. So you ended up fighting because over something that didn't happen because both you and the drunk had big mouths, drunken bravado, and poor reasoning skills. You got in a fight, apparently, in an attempt to help out your buddy Mike who apparently didn't do a single thing to help you. Now that is the type of friend you want to have.

Otherwise, you did a fine job on everything until you got out of your car.
 
Can't blame ya a bit. Could it have been avoided? Likely. But you have a right to go where you like and do the same as long as you're harming no one and you shouldn't have to tuck tail and run everytime a Richard Head decides to throw his weight around. Good on you.
Biker
 
That drunk was up to no good. If you had backed out, he would have assaulted your friend. The drunk got what was coming to him. The fact that you stopped hitting him after he went down shows self-restraint to me - many others would have given him the boot too.

What I'd have done differently is what Jenrick said - hit soft areas with closed fist and hard areas with open fist, to protect your wrist from fracture. Also pat him off before turning my back on him, just in case he is packing and wakes up before I leave.
 
At this point, both Mike and I made a hasty exit. I debated calling the police, but decided against such a thing. I didn't feel like risking a public intoxication charge and possibly assault.
And yet you got back into your car and drove on public streets/roads while in this state of intoxication. :confused: :uhoh: :fire:
 
Yeah, these were the parts nagging at me as well:
I had planned on drinking. The Makarov was sleeping in the glove box of my car at the time which is where it always sits when I plan on consuming alcohol.
Well, the Irishman, fueled by beer,
A little slowed by drink, I dodged a little late
I didn't feel like risking a public intoxication charge and possibly assault
So is HB correct? You did drive away after all this?
But you have a right to go where you like and do the same as long as you're harming no one and you shouldn't have to tuck tail and run everytime a Richard Head decides to throw his weight around.
Well, I just have to disagree with this ... all you're doing is letting your pride and your emotions control your behavior. A fight such as this could easily have been, and should have been avoided. Had law enforcement been nearby and responded, you'd almost certainly have gone to jail, especially if you left your opponent on the ground -- with no witnesses. There were two of you and presumably you weren't as intoxicated as your opponent.

In my book, if you feel you have to fight every drunk who challenges you inside or outside a bar, there are no desirable outcomes. It's a pattern than will inevitably end up with you having a criminal record.
 
While exiting a Golden Gloves match at a local college 15 years ago; A crazed but sober guy comes up to me in the quay and starts screaming that he was glad the soldier I was rooting for lost and what an SOB I was ect. Never saw the person before I thought and told him to go away. All of a sudden the guy swung on me from the rear, but with in my alerted vision quadrant. I ducked and rising blocked and in the now undefended face hard fisted three quick, full drop stepped punches to nose and face. Pulled his head down into my knee lift and let him slide to ground. I quickly jogged to my car and drove home VERY adrenelin rushed.
The next day cops at my door want me to go down town 'to talk'! I went down town where a Det. showd me this AH's face pictures with 30 stiches and looked really screwed up. He told the arriving security I laid wait for him with 2 other people and hit him with a 2"x4". Det. said, however witnesses stated what really happened and he wanted me to take a lie detector test. I said OK and passed. The cops said I must have really wailed on the guy, but witnesses in the croud only saw a couple punchs with the guy throwing the first one after screaming ect. Anyway the guy turned out to be a physcho ex church member to the church I attended and didn't like me for whatever reason. He did meet somebody I knew a couple years later and told that person he learned to keep his mouth shut! I was never charged for anything. I was 44 at the time and an Akido practitioner , but was a Brown belt in Taikwondo in 60s and a college boxer before that. I am NOT the billy bad @$$ I used to be , however :D
 
Well, last night at a favorite pub, I was forced into puting it to use. ... A little slowed by drink, I dodged a little late and incompletely. His sloppy hook struck a glancing blow high on my neck.
It wouldn't have mattered if he had missed altogether or had landed full force into my face. My fist was already moving. My hook was aimed much better and had more force behind it. It connected solidly with the side of his face; staggering him.
I would have stopped a year ago and waited to see what happened next. That was most certainly not the case last night. The training kicked in and I went to work. The drills ordered me to drive a few more punches home.
I had closed the gap after hitting him 3 or 4 times in the cheek and neck area. Now, I grabbed his shoulders and drove 2 knee strikes home into his abdomen.
Finely honed fighting skills in the wrong hands are a solution looking for a problem. Some folks spend a lot of money on dojo's and maybe they need to see that their money was well spent. It would be a shame to spend all that time and money and never get to beat anybody up. I agree with most all that Double Naught Spy, Old Dog and others had to say. This was totally avoidable.
 
On the other hand, what if this guy had attacked someone who couldn't defend himself as well? Then, an innocent man takes an ass whuppin-I doubt that this was the first time this a-hole has pulled this crap. This way, the bully gets whupped and he'll quite likely think about things first before he pulls this crap on a stranger next time. If not, at least karma took a turn.
Biker
 
+1 biker

The a-hole had it coming. And I don't think it was avoidable. Note that the other driver tried to reason with the drunk, to no effect. Maybe there was an element of eagerness, but that is independent of the drunk's intentions or choices. IIRC the original post, the drunk also threw the first punch.

But the point about DUI is a valid one...
 
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