Cuffed and Caged for Open Carry

[Madrevar]

3-2-09

12:30pm

Coon Rapids (Riverdale Crossing)

For reference, I begin this story carrying a CZ82 9x18mm in an all but unused Czech leather police holster, with thumb-break. I am wearing nothing but shorts/tshirt/sandals with only wallet/gun on me, with keys in left hand and beverage in right.

My girlfriend and I had just eaten at Chipotle and were leaving to pay my phone bill at the adjacent TMobile. After leaving Tmobile, we proceeded across the lot to my truck. I got as far as the rearend of my truck, when a Coon Rapids Police Department marked car flew in and stopped a few parking spots to the left and opposite my side, approximately 15 yards away. The Officer commanded, "Hey, you! Get over here!" Then, "Now turn around, up against the car!" This car was to my left parked next to my truck. I complied with all demands up to this point. As the Officer approached me with pistol drawn, "DO YOU KNOW WHAT FRICKEN' CONCEALED CARRY MEANS?" As he puts my hands behind my head I reply, "Yes Sir." Then he asks, "Then why are you carrying out in the open like that?" I chose my words carefully, "Well, Officer my permit says 'Permit To Carry' not 'Concealed Carry'." He says, "I DON'T CARE WHAT THE FRICKEN PERMIT SAYS! ITS CALLED 'MINNESOTA CONCEALED CARRY LAW' FOR A REASON!"

After disarming me and handing my pistol to his partner to be secured, he immediately started cuffing me. I ask, "Officer, may I ask why we are cuffing?" To which he replies, "So I can frisk you and put you in the car." At this point I am not sure what is going to happen, but start thinking a "Disorderly Conduct/Distubing The Peace" charge is in my future. After putting me in his squad, he and his partner and another officer deliberate on what to charge me with and if open carry is legal. After about ten minutes he comes back and starts asking me the rudimentary questions for his report, where I live, phone number, etc. After that he lets me out of the car, uncuffs me and gives me my keys and wallet back, but no gun yet. First he gives me the speil about how open carry is not the best idea, sheeple will call MWAG, and how if enough sheople would have been disturbed he would have charged me. He also told me that when and if I have law enforcement respond again I should be fine if I do as I did that day. He also admitted that he didn't have much experience with carrying off-duty much so he hasn't had to deal with it himself. All in all the Officers were polite and professional, even if a bit excessive with the detainment. He had me and the girlfriend get in my truck, hands my pistol and mag back to me through my window. I notice my previously-chambered round is missing, so I asked him to get that for me. We shook hands and I asked for his card. Then he went on his way.

No particular agenda on my part, just looking for comments and contructive criticisms from all. Thanks

 

[dogrunner]

Well, your 'rookie' "defecated" in his chapeau...........and knew it!

Bet he handles the next one a bit differently......you COULD complain.........your call.

Had that officer worked for me I'd do some remedial training along with a bit of hard discussion in tact.

 

[SaxonPig]

If open carry is indeed completely legal in MN and it happened as you say then I would take a reasonable and measured course of action.

I would hire an attorney and sue the city, the PD, and the individual officers for millions of dollars.

I would do my best to get the officers fired.

I would do my best to get the chief fired.

I would do my best to get all of the cops noted above charged with criminal offenses for violating my civil liberties.

Other than that I'd just shrug it off.

IMO what should have happened if a complaint was made then the officer should have contacted you, verified your legal status to carry, and bid you a good day. You describe their actions as professional. Right, if they are professional Nazis.

 

[distra]

That's one reason why I always carry concealed. In CT, there is no specific law making it illegal to open carry. However, for just this reason it is not practical to open carry. I'm not a big fan of open carry and my suggestion would be to conceal carry instead.

 

[DocBoCook]

that's the reason I got my CHP here in VA. too many people "asking" me to leave or they'll call the cops, even after I explained to them that it is perfectly legal in VA to open carry. Last straw, was when Dick's sporting goods would not let me enter open carrying

 

[grampster]

The following is just my opinion. I am a firm believer in the 2A. I think our society ought to be very concerned about the upholding of our Constitution, all of it at all times.

Having said that, discretion is always the better part of valor. While open carry may be legal in your jurisdiction, and should be legal in every jurisdiction, whether one chooses to carry openly should be tempered by unintended consequences.

Concealed carry provides an element of uncertainty for those who would prey upon their fellow citizens. That uncertainty has a lot of benefit for everyone as well as not stirring up those who are meek.

For one to go about with a firearm openly displayed may be legal, but not beneficial. This is shown by what happened to you. Obviously somebody got distressed with observing a person walking around openly strapped and called the police.

What possible benefit accrued from your experience? I think you need to ask yourself that question.

I've posted this with all due respect to the notion that if we don't exercise our rights, we may lose them.

 

[Madrevar]

dogrunner: sadly he was no rookie, unless he joined at 40.

SaxonPig: Is there any other kind of Nazi? lol

distra: I believe in liberty, so I would believe in both.

 

[Madrevar]

DocBoCook: Funny thing is the manager of my particular Chipotle restaurant wants me there as much as I can. He says he likes the free deterrence!

grampster: I have to say that if I could do only one and not the other, I would prefer concealed as well. However, I think that saying there was no benefit at all isn't fair. The two officers *hopefully* learned something that day, even if it doesn't change their procedure.

 

[Seminole]

All in all the Officers were polite and porfessional,

Let's see, lack of knowledge of the law, detaining you for no apparent reason, handcuffing you for no apparent reason, speaking rudely to you--what part of any of that is polite and professional?

LEOs have no business abusing their authority--ignorance of the law is no excuse. If it is indeed legal to OC in your state, SaxonPig's suggestions are indeed "reasonable and measured."

 

[Bubba613]

When you open carry you invite that sort of thing. If you aren't bothered by it, OK. If you are, the obvious suggestion is not to do it anymore.

 

[General Geoff]

Q: Why do people feel forced to conceal their firearms like criminals?

A: Because the police often treat them as criminals if they don't.

The solution to this isn't concealment, it's better law enforcement education and, if required, discipline.

 

[Gamera]

I've posted this with all due respect to the notion that if we don't exercise our rights, we may lose them.

Exactly.

It may not be the best "tactical" decision to open carry, and you may spook some people, but if you want to exercise your legal right to open carry then you should be allowed to do so without the police stopping and cuffing you.

I personally wouldn't take any legal action, but I would write a letter to the local PD and make sure this type of thing doesn't happen again.

 

[taprackbang]

We need more people like you. Many people treat police like they are infallible and they are far from that, as evidenced by your stand.
I applaud you sir. In my mind, you already won...

 

[Superlite27]

What an EXCELLENT response by the OP!

Many times, when we become offronted, act like we've been accosted by the gestapo, and loudly complain "I'll have your badge, copper!" we justify their jack booted behavior in their opinion.

When we cooly and calmly comply like we've done nothing wrong (since we haven't) it just makes their behavior look all that more idiotic.

Kudo's to the OP. Since he acted so calmly, there was nothing for the cop to justify being so hysterical. Having the chance to reflect on his own reaction, he probably had no other option than to realize what a moron he was being.

I'd still write a letter of complaint to his department head about how offensively he was treated. Only to possibly prevent such horrible treatment of others in the future. They won't correct such problems if nothing is ever done about it.

 

[DHJenkins]

Which part of the law allowing open carry guarantees freedom from harrassment?

There are plenty of things that are legal to do that you'll take crap for.

 

[General Geoff]

Which part of the law allowing open carry guarantees freedom from harassment?

1. Laws tell us what is prohibited,, not what is allowed.
2. The law that makes harassment, well, illegal. Last I checked there are no exemptions for police officers in harassment law.

 

[Mainsail]

I'm not a big fan of open carry and my suggestion would be to conceal carry instead.

that's the reason I got my CHP here in VA. too many people "asking" me to leave or they'll call the cops, even after I explained to them that it is perfectly legal in VA to open carry. Last straw, was when Dick's sporting goods would not let me enter open carrying

When you open carry you invite that sort of thing.

You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers…..well, unless your ignorance of the law makes it awkward for me.

It is dangerously shortsighted to think that the way things are now is the way they will always be. At the present, concealed carry goes on pretty much without much police disturbance. That will not always be the case though. The Air Force base where I work has a van that can see through car and truck bodies, as well as the driver, as they drive past it. There will be a time soon when the government will know who is and who isn’t carrying a firearm, even if you conceal it. Knowing what your rights are, as well as the laws about firearms and privacy from government interference, will help you now and in the future. The outrageous violations of privacy rights we read about, including the OP’s experience, are only a few years away for those who would knuckle under and hide their rights merely because it’s inconvenient.

The more you allow firearms carry to be associated with illegal activity, more rigid the nexus becomes. The folks who today are openly carrying their firearms are doing more for the protection of your firearms rights than you realize, and more than some of you are willing to do yourself.

 

[jackstinson]

sheeple will call MWAG, and how if enough sheople would have been disturbed he would have charged me.

Now you have me curious as to whether the LEO actually used the term; "sheeple"?

 

[Mainsail]

Which part of the law allowing open carry guarantees freedom from harrassment? (sic)

It’s not about the law “allowing” open carry; it’s the lack of a law that forbids it. I can’t tell from your post where you live, but here in America, the law doesn’t work the way you seem to think it does.

Let’s look at the Washington Constitution:

SECTION 7 INVASION OF PRIVATE AFFAIRS OR HOME PROHIBITED. No person shall be disturbed in his private affairs, or his home invaded, without authority of law.

Article One Section Seven guarantees freedom from government (police) harassment.

SECTION 24 RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.

There is nothing in section 24 that even mentions concealed or open carry. The Washington legislature and the courts of the state have determined that laws forbidding concealed carry are constitutional. We now have to have a concealed pistol license to carry concealed firearms, but no license or permit is required to carry a firearm openly.

 

[twoclones]

Which part of the law allowing open carry guarantees freedom from harrassment?

4th amendment?

 

[Deanimator]

Which part of the law allowing open carry guarantees freedom from harrassment?

So then what you're saying is that he can harass you for wearing a Republican or Democrat T-shirt, or pretty much anything else?

There are plenty of things that are legal to do that you'll take crap for.

And the cop and his family will end up living under a bridge.

 

[CoRoMo]

I, personally, wouldn't sue anyone because if I saw it as no harm done, I'll just get on with my life. I would want a sincere apology and I might follow up with his superior officer. Hopefully he'd send out a memo to his patrolmen and educate them on what not to do. An effort to keep another schmo from getting detained and harassed.

The solution to this isn't concealment, it's better law enforcement education and, if required, discipline.

Yep.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I do NOT understand the argument that just because something is legal does not mean that a person should NOT do it because they may be harrassed by LEO. When in heck are we going to say, enough is enough, cops don't make laws, they enforce them. By saying we shouldn't do something because a cop may harass us is giving them the power to make their own laws.

What if a cop wanted to stop, handcuff and search you for wearing an orange shirt, discussed it for 10 minutes, and then said, well there is nothing illegal about wearing an orange shirt, but I don't like orange shirts and orange shirts make some people nervous? Or what about cell phones? Some people's cell phones annoy the H**L out of me. Can I get the cops to harass someone for their cell phone that is annoying me? What the H**L is the difference between a legally carried firearm and an orange shirt?!? Can someone please offer me an intelligent answer to that question?

For one to go about with a firearm openly displayed may be legal, but not beneficial.

I obviously disagree. There are many benefits to open carry.

 

[Grey_Mana]

If you have lots of time on your hands

Most jurisdictions don't require the officer to file a report for such as case, but they are permitted to do so. After 24 hours have elapsed, you should contact the police department and request a copy of the filed report. If there is a report, check it for factual accuracy and challenge any lies.

If there is no report, your chances of winning in small claims court just went up to 15%. If it happened in front of your girlfriend, you were slandered. Her fear that you might, in the future, be stopped and help is a permanent detriment to your reputation. That has monetary value.

The time that you were held has a monetary value.

Needing to ask for your bullet back? Should be reported as attempted robbery.

It's probably too late now, but if you were startled by the cop and had whiplash, you should self-assess you potential injury. If you were cuffed & put into the back of a cruiser, you should self-assess for injuries. If you might have been injured, you should see a doctor for that joint and back pain.

 

[kirklandkie]

So then what you're saying is that he can harass you for wearing a Republican or Democrat T-shirt, or pretty much anything else?

sad thing, people often are harassed for political views.

and regarding the opened carry: good stuff, you should make a point to do it more often (and based on the clothing i'd guess the weather wouldn't permit a true concealed carry)

-Kirk