CZ finally offers the 527 in 6.5 Grendel

[1stmarine]

here some additional thoughts...

IMHO, for many people there is a huge advantage to having a popular round that perhaps they also enjoy in the AR or some other popular firearm.
The problem comes when we expect them to do something that is not really possible but as soon as one knows the limitations of the round there
are plenty of formulas to extend the range and/or killing potential possibly tailored to the specific game animal in question.
Both the 6.8 and 6.5 Grendel are good hunting rounds with TTSX bullets and within moderate ranges. 2800-2900 fps is possible with careful reloading
and not too bad on the brass that is pretty strong. the 6.8spcii in the AR is also very hard to overlook. The 7.62x39 can also be explored with either
heavier softer bullets or lighter solids.

IMO we should not generalize because only the hunter/shooter knows what is really needed and what is an acceptable compromise between reach,
power and/or more complications or costs. With ballistics, there is always a trade-off of some sort.

There are many wildcats that are also very attractive due to being simple especially those that do not require cutting, forming, fireforming, neck turning,
frequent annealing, etc.. and that might be simple and affordable in nature.
In terms of the solid bullets I have to say that more times than not it is ok to trade off a bit of grain and sectional density in exchange for speed. Actually
a lower sectional density might translate into a more effective terminal effect but of course one has to be smart about the game in question and match
bullets to animal type and body weight and be reasonable in expectations. Like @horsey300 explained a soft skin small white tail is not that hard to kill
and kill well, but if we switch to a running wild Bore even in the same weight range that is a complete different ball game.

When evaluating options we should consider everything. In the bolt action we do not have the type of limitations we might find in other platforms so we
might also take advantage of that. Did you ever wonder why the 243 is so popular when people can virtually achieve the same with the 6mm BR and
less powder and heat? Aside from technicalities and other considerations I think the marketing, over the shelf ammo and rifle choices have a huge
impact on what becomes more popular. People see less popular cartriges as more specialized, more expensive, when in fact when you start reloading
that might not be the case but we also know many people do not care about cartrige development and ballistics analysis too much.
Many reloaders want to find a couple or three accurate loads for different uses and stick to them for hunting or target or whatever they need.

I love the BRX and dasher line of cartriges but I undersand that is not something is going to be popular with many specially because one can take a 6BR
and simply neck it up or down the same thing as the 6.8 or grendel and have a few very good and very simple variants if that is desired. Possibly not
the best performers in that class but they will be good enough and simplicity will attract more people to the cats.

At least this has been my experience, simple cats attract more people.

We know how complicated some cats can get right? (I have been there lol) ..and after all is said and done we might find out there is an eaiser more suitable
alternative that does the same or even more, even a reload on a popular commercial cartridge.

 

[LoonWulf]

Gahhh logic!

 

[horsey300]

Gahhh logic!

Yes, but as a gal I'm VERY fond of says, "logic is stupid! This is more fun!"

 

[1stmarine]

Yes, but as a gal I'm VERY fond of says, "logic is stupid! This is more fun!"

I heard square bicycle tires can be a lot of fun! lol

 

[LoonWulf]

U must work for the same guys i do!

 

[horsey300]

I heard square bicycle tires can be a lot of fun! lol

Heck ya! Put em on a short fat pair of skids (square more stable than round) and we've got a downhill snow race, (or pull it behind the truck) steer either needs to be wider or dual for safety, or reversed like a rudder on the rear.

I think I just wildcatted a bicycle.

 

[adcoch1]

The point with the cz, in my opinion, is that it is greater in person than on paper. The zastava mini mausers felt junky, a short action seems silly in little cartridges like the grendel, but the cz527 just balances SO well! Its a pleasure to handle and shoot, its lighter than any over the counter rifle I've ever picked up, and for deer it may be the perfect rifle. That's in 7.62x39. The logical jump to hotrodding this sweet little rifle is expected, and the grendel makes great sense, as it does on an ar15 platform.

Trying to max out a platform is in our nature as gun people, but sometimes we take it too far. The grendel, or 6.8, or 357 maximum are awesome top end ideas for the mini mauser action. Anything more though and its probably wise to just move to a short action. As llama bob pointed out, a short action can be had in a really light package too.

I may end up with the cz as my foray into 6.5mm, but I keep looking at 6.5x55 too, so who knows!

 

[LoonWulf]

short fat pair of skids

Read that as pair of short fat kids....

 

[horsey300]

Read that as pair of short fat kids....

Probably still functional with enough ski wax

 

[horsey300]

Back to the OP. I would take the 527 in a Grendel over the x39 because I like savage bored .308 better. Now if cz would do that too.....the Grendel only gains ballistics.....

 

[LoonWulf]

Probably still functional with enough ski wax

Added functionality is always good in a wildcat.... But back to the cz, does anyone know what rhe actual coal the mag can take?

 

[fireman 9731]

You're missing the point - 6mm Dasher is a superior cartridge for the application in a mini-action, flat out. So that's the custom side of things.

On the factory side, the CZ offering is so overweight as to be substantially larger and heavier than similarly priced and featured rifles using .308 size cartridges. So the 6.5 Grendel loses on the factory side of things.

Factory, custom, auto, bolt - doesn't matter. The 6.5 Grendel manages to lose wherever it goes

Have you ever even handled a 527? You all are over thinking this way too much. The Grendel in the 527 is natural because all it required was a barrel swap. The magazine and bolt head required no modification. Not to mention, you can buy a 20 round box of Wolf plinking ammo for $5. Nobody is saying that the Grendel is the end-all, be-all of cartridges. Its just a good fit and upgrade from the previously available 527 chamberings.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Yeah, actually you are. 6mm Dasher is a CUSTOM option. The superior factory offering is the Savage Lightweight Hunter in .243, .260 or 6.5CM. It's smaller, lighter, probably more accurate, and chambered in much more capable rounds. If you're trying to figure out how to shoot a superior factory rifle cheaply, that's your solution.

Shooting 6mm Dasher with Norma brass is actually very cheap once you buy the rifle BTW - the brass is about $1/case and lasts about 10 uses. Charge weights are in the 35 grain neck of the woods, so you're looking at a total of about $0.25 of components outside of the bullet depending on exactly what primer and powder you choose. There's really not much else with that level of performance that is so cheap to shoot.

I'm not talking about custom options Bob. I'm talking about going down to Cabelas and buying a rifle off of the shelf. You know, the one's 90% of rifle buyers buy.

If you want to redirect this conversation to the economical aspects of reloading we can talk about that too I guess. The grendel will cost about the same to reload as just about any short action rifle cartridge, except two. The .308 would be one. I noticed you failed to mention that one in your last post. Maybe you think that cartridge can't perform either compared to a 6 mm, I don't know. I can assure you I can reload .308 cheaper than any other short action cartridge (except .223) and so can just about anybody who tries to keep costs down. The brass is laying around on my range and I pick it up every time I shoot. I can buy a thousand lbs of the either 5.56 or 7.62 at a nearby military base at auction for 2-3 bucks a pound.

So none of your cartridges would be my solution to shooting a short action "cheap". That would be .223 and .308. Most of the shooters at my range shoot AR's. Most of the bolt shooters are using 30 cal. something or other. That's where the market is. It isn't building a rifle for every wildcat cartridge that comes down the road.

 

[adcoch1]

Added functionality is always good in a wildcat.... But back to the cz, does anyone know what rhe actual coal the mag can take?

2.325" is the internal magazine length for my x39 mag, so that is the theoretical cartrige length, practical is more like 2.318"

 

[LoonWulf]

cool. My Ar before the mag cut would take 2.28 so you should get a little extra length there, which goes a long way in the stubby little case, well perhaps not that much but enough to be worth it.

 

[horsey300]

Added functionality is always good in a wildcat.... But back to the cz, does anyone know what rhe actual coal the mag can take?

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=12368.0
2.334" according to these guys. Saami says the Grendel goes to 2.26" so anything loaded long might get single fed. Still though, shouldn't need to load the 100 and 120's that long for hunting and plinking.

 

[Llama Bob]

I'm not talking about custom options Bob. I'm talking about going down to Cabelas and buying a rifle off of the shelf. You know, the one's 90% of rifle buyers buy.

If you want to redirect this conversation to the economical aspects of reloading we can talk about that too I guess. The grendel will cost about the same to reload as just about any short action rifle cartridge, except two. The .308 would be one. I noticed you failed to mention that one in your last post. Maybe you think that cartridge can't perform either compared to a 6 mm, I don't know. I can assure you I can reload .308 cheaper than any other short action cartridge (except .223) and so can just about anybody who tries to keep costs down. The brass is laying around on my range and I pick it up every time I shoot. I can buy a thousand lbs of the either 5.56 or 7.62 at a nearby military base at auction for 2-3 bucks a pound.

So none of your cartridges would be my solution to shooting a short action "cheap". That would be .223 and .308. Most of the shooters at my range shoot AR's. Most of the bolt shooters are using 30 cal. something or other. That's where the market is. It isn't building a rifle for every wildcat cartridge that comes down the road.

Wow, you continue to be confused. I think it's intentional.

Fact is, the 6.5 Grendel is a failure of a cartridge. Bad design for an AR15, bad design for a bolt gun.

 

[LoonWulf]

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=12368.0
2.334" according to these guys. Saami says the Grendel goes to 2.26" so anything loaded long might get single fed. Still though, shouldn't need to load the 100 and 120's that long for hunting and plinking.

I havent had issues with length as long as it fits in the mag, but again my pool of experience is small, exactly 2 mags and 2 uppers, and Jmorris now has one of each lol.

 

[LoonWulf]

Fact is, the 6.5 Grendel is a failure of a cartridge. Bad design for an AR15, bad design for a bolt gun.

I dont think id qualify the Grendel as a failed round, the 30RAR is a failed round, kinda sad too it looked like it might be a good one. The Grens chambered in pretty much every gun that its fit for.

If we go buy available options I think the Grendels doing pretty good actually.
Does that mean its better (or even as good) at anything, or everything, than some other rounds? not really, but as stated its an easy conversion, offers acceptable to good ballistics from a very short package with common brass (anyone who makes an x39 dosent need to change alot to make grendel brass), and a good selection of bullets.

 

[adcoch1]

There is potential in the bottom metal for a slightly longer mag, maybe cz is using a slightly different mag than the 7.62x39...

 

[Llama Bob]

I dont think id qualify the Grendel as a failed round, the 30RAR is a failed round, kinda sad too it looked like it might be a good one. The Grens chambered in pretty much every gun that its fit for.

It's stuck in a whirlwind of broken bolts and broken extractors and infighting between manufacturers who know the problems are fundamentally unfixable because the round was misdesigned on the AR side. On the bolt gun side, it just performs so pathetically as to be a laughingstock.

Sales are low and falling.

I'd call that a failure.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Wow, you continue to be confused. I think it's intentional.

Fact is, the 6.5 Grendel is a failure of a cartridge. Bad design for an AR15, bad design for a bolt gun.

Yeah, I guess it's a failed cartridge. You should probably call the marketing execs at Anderson, CZ and Nikko and tell them what you know about the cartridge ASAP. You could save them a ton of money. Better inform the military also because I understand they are testing some modified M4's using the cartridge. I certainly don't want my tax dollars buying something that was doomed from the start. Thanks for the heads up.

 

[LoonWulf]

It's stuck in a whirlwind of broken bolts and broken extractors and infighting between manufacturers who know the problems are fundamentally unfixable because the round was misdesigned on the AR side. On the bolt gun side, it just performs so pathetically as to be a laughingstock.

Sales are low and falling.
I'd call that a failure.

I'm curious as to where the low sales figgures are from? Serious question not trying to heckle. I see them all over for sale, but never did any research into how many actually get sold

 

[Llama Bob]

I'm curious as to where the low sales figgures are from?

Just general involvement in the firearms industry. The 6.5 Grendel was hot for a brief period of time when it came out in the early 2000s before everyone realized what a clown Bill Alexander is and that the guns break. Now it's, well, let's say not hot.

And CZ's not the one who's going to lose money on this. Their total tooling cost since they already made 6.5mm barrels is a couple reamers - we're talking a few hundred bucks up front. For that investment, they get to sell guns to anyone gullible enough to buy them. When the inevitable plays out, it's the buyers who are left holding the bag with an unsupported and poorly designed caliber.

 

[Llama Bob]

Better inform the military also because I understand they are testing some modified M4's using the cartridge.

You understood wrong. This rumor has been floating around for a decade, and it's no more true than it was in 2003. The one experiment that was done was to wildcat the .30 Remington in an AR, with bullets ranging between .22 and .30 caliber which eventually produced the 6.8 SPC. There was a 6.5 SPC tried as well, and never saw the light of day since the goal of the AMU/Remington experiments was to produce a short barrel carbine round, and long range performance was not a design criteria.

The 6.5 Grendel will never see military service in an AR in the US for at least 3 reasons:
1) it breaks bolts
2) it breaks extractors
3) the high taper on the case reduces feed reliability