Dangerous Game rifle

[bratch]

WARNING: This is going to be one of those "What if/best..." threads

With all this talk of loose lions and rampaging gorillas its time for a dangerous game rifle

The thought of a "super rifle" able to take down the world's meanest critters intrigues me. Only problem is this is a new realm for me.

I would like to get one while I am young and more or less responsibility free. However this also kind of limits the budget.

I have looked around and saw the CZ rifles at reasonable prices and heard they are decent rifles. Have also seen domestic guns in a variety of prices.

Any reccomendations on a good rifle? No need for pretty just functional. Doubles would be great but I feel are out of my range

And the fun part: caliber....

This gun may one day actually make it across the seas for a serious workout. It may also see use around North America on bear and other larger game if it isn't absolutley overpowered. Can get at some piggies too around here; I know I saw H&H shooting at them with his bigger guns.

I have read the 375H&H is a great base round but may be a little weak for the larger, angrier beast. Have also heard good remarks on the various .4 calibers.

I plan on reloading soon so that will give me a wider range of loads and make ammo a bit cheaper for what ever I go with.

Guide me those with knowledge.

 

[Slingster]

There are a few ways you could go about this in terms of cartridge, but the CZ 550 rifle is a good choice for a platform in all cases as a "starter DG."

For maximum utility in "normal" North American hunting while still having minimal power to handle the big stuff, the 9.3x62 cartridge is a great choice, with 286-grain bullets at 2350 fps. It fits in a standard-length action, so the rifle can be trimmer and shorter. The increase in recoil is modest compared to a .30-06 and would be a good first step up. While it doesn't compare on paper to the .375 H&H, in the field it performs pretty much the same. In some African countries it's legal for Cape buffalo, and I know a PH who has a rifle so chambered that's been used to take over 650 buff. On the other hand, if you've already got something in the .338" to .358" calibers, this will be mostly duplicative.

For pure classical appeal, the traditional "all-rounder" .375 H&H can't be beat. For North American hunting you can drop down to 270-grain bullets at 2400 fps with modest recoil and still have all the killing power you need for everything. If you make it to Africa, load up premium 300-grain bullets at 2400-2450 fps and you're set.

On the other hand, if you want a true DGR, the CZ 550 also comes in .416 Rigby. A definite step up in performance but also in recoil and ammo/reloading costs. A 400-grain bullet at 2400 fps will take down anything on the planet.

So, on balance, I'd say go with the CZ 550 in .375 H&H and use it a lot. Then, if Africa becomes a reality for you, your first hunt will most likely be for plains game and the .375 will do it all. On your second hunt for DG, with some African experience under your belt, you can then make a decision whether you're comfortable with the .375 or need something bigger. Your familiarization with the .375 will stand you in good stead if you make the step up to .416 or .458.

 

[BigG]

Good advice there from Slingster! I also have a .376 Steyr Scout. I know it's a rare caliber but the gun is dang nice and I just wanted to mention it. It has ballistics in the ballpark with .375 H&H but in a compact neat package. The gun comes up like a shotgun and the intermediate eye relief scope is right on target when the gun hits your shoulder.

I know it's not for everybody, but it is a dang fine solution if you were going to go all the way to Africa. It would be once in a lifetime for most people.

 

[bratch]

Oy the battle between logic and desire... The 375H&H does sounds a though it would be the best choice (kinda knew that coming in) but the power of a 416 still calls me.

Is the .416 any use on our continent or is it a little too far past the excessive line?

Presently have a 30-06; 25-06; and a slew of 22s and shotguns and a couple commie guns. So nothing in this class.

Thanks a ton for the insight so far guys.

Whats the reloading breakdown on the 375 versus the 416? I remember somebody getting the 375 to reasonable cost on here.

 

[armoredman]

700 Nitro Express....

 

[twoblink]

I asked my buddy in the army..

he answered "a SAW".. since that's what he carries...

 

[JShirley]

If I had waaaaaay more money than sense, I'd like to get a strong modern repeating rifle chambered in one of the old powerful American cartridges....say, .45-110. Work up some rhino rollers with modern slow smokeless, and head out to take over the world.

A little more realistically, I plan on having a 1917 custom in .416 Rigby one day. Not too much for the world's largest land carnivore in Alaska, and perfect for Africa.

John

 

[smokemaker]

If I had waaaay more money than sense, I'd have C. Sharps make me a rifle in .50-140 sharps and go take over the world, but I love that somebody mentioned the .45-110. Thanks John, I knew there were guys out there who still remember those great cartridges.
Aren't there still some reasonably priced mauser actions available in .458 Winnie?? I got my MK-X for a song, and it's way softer to shoot with full house rounds than my Dad's .416 Rem, which is just brutal for recoil.

 

[JShirley]

Makes sense. The .416 is smaller diameter, and IIRC, higher pressure. (Aren't .458's usually downloaded to double-rifle pressures?)

Yeah, I considered one of the .50's, but .45 is just such a great diameter. When we both have that more money than sense failing, we can head out together.

John

 

[H&Hhunter]

(Aren't .458's usually downloaded to double-rifle pressures?)

JS.

Uhhh no not even close.. The .458Win is a very high pressure round. I think the recoil issue is once again a matter of stock fit in this circumstance. I find the .416's of all flavors to be quite reasonable recoil wise.

I think you must be thinking that the .458win was designed to duplicate the Nitro's performance with a 500gr bullet. The case is so space limited that it takes some serious pressure to attempt to achieve that.

I have to agree with slingster on the .375 idea and shoot it alot. Only i would get a Model-70 just a preferance thing.

 

[JShirley]

Well, it's nice to know I'm still wrong sometimes. I was beginning to scare myself.



John

 

[bratch]

H&H: What are your thoughts on the subject? I was looking foward to your insight in the subject as you seem very informed.
Any use for the 416 on North America? Whats its cost compared to the 375?

Any good shops in Colorado for the big guns? Seem I would have a bit better luck finding one up there than in plain country.

 

[Leadbutt]

Heck,now that CZ has said they are going to bring out the 505 Gibb's wait till it comes out and get one

 

[bratch]

This is horrible so many choices... That have led to a few more questions:

I've been looking at a ballistics chart I found online. Its far from complete but leads me in a few directions...kinda.

Just looking at the chart the 338 Ultra and the 340 Weatherby had equivalent power levels as a 416 Rigby. What makes the 416 a better round or is it? Larger, bullets, more weight? ***reread H&H old post and noticed the 400 grain requirment but man those 338s have some umph***

The 416 Remington also looks like a stopper as does the 458 Win.

What has set these few rounds(375 H&H;416 rigby) apart as superior to those around it? More platforms available, more bullet selection, or is it all subjective?

Sorry for this rambling and geek number works but I'm trying to learn and you guys have a wealth of knowledge

Anymore info on the lever action DG rifles that were mentioned in H&H old thread?

 

[BigG]

What has set these few rounds(375 H&H;416 rigby) apart as superior to those around it? More platforms available, more bullet selection, or is it all subjective?

Ballistics charts are a marketing tool and have very little to do with the actual performance of a given round. They make for heated discussions around the stove among statistics enthusiasts, though. YMMV

The 375 and 416 use long, heavy bullets for their diameter, 300 gr in 375 and 400 gr in 416 and 500 gr in the various 45s. These bullets actually have the performance to drill in and knock out an elephant with a proper brain shot, which was the objective criteria used by the white hunters of old.

The 375 also has the virtue of shooting three different bullet weights into the same group, something very few other cartridges will do so you can use a 235 gr and 270 gr as well as the 300 gr. Pick your bullet for the situation. The 270 and 300 gr bullets shoot about the same trajectory as the classic 30/06 so you can have a 30/06 for a light rifle and the 375 for the big game and each will have the same hold over. Makes things simple. HTH

 

[Slingster]

bratch wrote:

Is the .416 any use on our continent or is it a little too far past the excessive line?

I'd consider it comforting for close encounters with the big brown bears and polar bears, provided you can handle it quickly and accurately with full power loads. The .416 Remington Magnum is the equivalent of the .416 Rigby in ballistics, can be housed in a trimmer action, and is available from more manufacturers.

Of course, you could always buy a .458 Win Mag and download with 300-350-grain bullets at 2200-2400 fps for North American use, reserving the 500-grain loads at 2100-2200 fps for when you go up against dangerous game.

Someone above mentioned the .376 Steyr Scout as a good rifle/cartridge for Africa. I concur. I took one to Africa in 2002 with 300-grain handloads at 2320 fps and it was a real killer on plains game up to eland (moose-sized antelope). In my opinion, if the .308 Steyr Scout is an American general purpose rifle, the .376 Steyr Scout is an African general purpose rifle.

 

[TaxPhd]

This seems pretty simple to me.

CRF rifle. Make mine a Model 70.

Caliber could be .375 H&H, .416 (Rigby or Remington), or .458 Lott.

Problem solved.




Scott

 

[bratch]

Slowly beginning to think 2 may be the answer A 375 I could actually use and a big un just cuz.

Still open to all advice and thoughts.

Thanks guys

 

[BigG]

The 375 H&H is really your best shot if you just want to %$# around with a larger bore. The ammo is about 1/2 as costly as 458 Winnie and the 416 is even higher. You will get plenty of excitement being booted with the 40+ fp of kick - about 2 1/2 X a 30/06. Not only that, the 375 is very accurate. If you do your part it will go under an inch at 100 yds off the bench. You can always get a 458 later on. HTH and Good Luck!

 

[Dan the Man]

Bratch-

The .375 H&H is considered the minimum for dangerous game. Do you want the minimum when an 800 lb gorilla (just recently escaped from the zoo) wants to pull your arms off? Or a 1600 lb buff wants to smear you into the ground? Nah!

If you can shoot a .375, you can handle a .458 Lott (I've shot both). At practical dangerous game ranges, the bullet trajectory is the same (a 300 grain .375 zeroed at 200 yards is 12" low at 300 yards. A 465 grain .458 Lott zeroed at 200 yards is 13" low at 300 yards).

The Lott is therefore perfectly adequate for hunting large and/or dangerous game compared to the .375 or the .416's. But it is a much better choice for 'stopping' large or dangerous game than either.

I believe CZ now makes a .458 Lott. If I were shopping for one today, that would be my choice. My current heavy bolt-rifle is a CZ550 magnum converted to .458 Lott (before they were making them). My double rifle is a .475 nitro express #2. My son's heavy bolt-rifle is a Blaser R93 in .375 H&H.

Regards
--Dan

 

[H&Hhunter]

H&H: What are your thoughts on the subject? I was looking foward to your insight in the subject as you seem very informed.

Any use for the 416 on North America? Whats its cost compared to the 375?

Any good shops in Colorado for the big guns? Seem I would have a bit better luck finding one up there than in plain country.

Bratch.

I'll try and answewr your questions the best I can.

1. My thoughts on the subject are....If you want an all out mudstomping DG rifle go and get yourself a .458Lott and be done with it. the make and model is up to you but for the money a CZ-550 would be hard to beat for an entry level rifle. Of all the heavy rifle calibers built the Lott is definatley the cheapest to reload for bar none except the .458 Win mag is about the same price.

If you want an all around usefull rifle that fits into the DG catagory for use in the USA then get a .375H&H. It'll shoot flat enough to use on elk and such and it whalops enough for dangerous game. With proper bullets there is no animal on earth I wouldn't hunt with a .375H&H. I just perfer heavier stuff when hunting thick skinned DG in tight cover. If my double was broken however don't think for a second I wouldn't use my .375H&H for buff in the tall grass.

2. A .375H&h is cheaper to reload for or to buy factory ammo period..There is a use for the .416 in NA and as previously mentioned that is in the large carnivor application. However anything you can do with a .416 you can do better with a .458lott. Just my humble opinon. If you can learn to shoot a Lott, but if you can handle the recoil of a hot .416 than you will be able to handle a Lott. I am not a big .416 fan. It's a great caliber but I don't really have any use for one.


3. I don't really know of a "good' big bore shop in CO. I do have a friend who has CZ550 for sale in .458Lott right now if your inerested let me know.

I hope I was of some assistance.

H&Hhunter.

 

[stephen_g22]

I thought buckshot was all anyone needed for dangerous game

 

[bratch]

How about a .410 slug that almost as large as a .416 and larger than a 375

 

[Al Thompson]

Buckshot?

One thing that may been mentioned and I missed, is that you can always hunt down with a big bore. I've smacked a bunch of small stuff with my .375 and it tears up less meat at close ranges than some super fast, thin skinned bullet.

Ten years ago, I worked up some dandy loads for my .458 using the 400 grain X bullet at 2350 fps or so. Wouldn't be as flat shooting as a .416, but would be darn close to 250 yards or so.

Guy who has my .458 shoots cast bullets in it, btw.

 

[BigG]

Al, I've shot 405 gr .458 cast bullets meant for the 45/70 in my Model 70 and it's a hoot. Foop! Thunk!