Dangit... More nonsense regarding my Dad and CCW. (long)

[tyme]

[blockquote]My Dad, as it seems now, is for gun-ownership -- but not carry, self-defense, or gun use.[/blockquote]
Well isn't that interesting. The Amazing Second Amendment justification clause mutation that protects guns only behind display cases... I don't recall anything from history class about the militia finding museums useful, but I'm not a history major...

 

[Dorrin79]

Maybe I'm just a cold heartless bastard - but I would not associate with a member of my family who went out of their way to provoke me by insulting my beliefs.

I have no tolerance for such people, regardless of who they are.

I am fortunate in that my family, regardless of our wildly divergent opinions, are all civil people.

 

[labgrade]

Just a quick thread skim, but I've some observations anyway.

& although I'm of the "don't thread on me" mindset, I still subscribe to the "don't burn bridges" things just as easily.

My Dad & I went round 'n round about so many things political, philosophical.

He was a B17 tail gunner in WW2, an ardent "try for the one-holer groups" with a .22-250 he once owned.

I'd mentioned the time the world 1000 yard record was broken with the .50 cal & his reply was that "nobody needed to have a gun that powerful." I was stunned! a 3+" group at 1000 yards & he wasn't impressed, or awed!? + some other ramblings about his own .50 cal use - yada.

We went round & round over such sillyness, never to convince the other.

:banghead:

Seems the heated conversations sometimes got in the way of what we really thought. It does that at times.

Well, I "won" that arguement as Dad died just over 3 years ago & his "one-holer" resides in my own gun safe now.

How I wish that I could still have those heated arguements over such seemingly inane things.

Sorry, just brought back some past tapes .....

 

[Feanaro]

What it comes down to is this. You may simply ignore him when he brings it up or present an ultimatum: cut the crap or I don't speak with you. You can continue to argue with him and simply stomach it. You can burn the bridges and simply never speak to him again.

 

[Pendragon]

A few points.

You ought stay close to your parents - you only got one set and they do not last forever.

That said, you need to get schooled in the concept of debate as sport - blood sport even.

First, you are getting WAY WAY WAY to emotionally involved in the debates. Your dad sees he can get a rise out of you so he pushes the buttons.

Disconnect your buttons.

You are still young and living with your parents os it is very hard - we want to look up to our dads and think they are infallible. So you have internal conflicts when this happens - you want yout dad to be right or you want to believe him or at least respect him - but you know he is wrong hence the dilemma.

Understand that there are many ways of viewing the world. Some people have trouble accepting certain obvious facts as the truth because so many of our beliefs are interconnected and changing one forces us to rethink many of our other beliefs.

So understand that your parents are very much subconciously protecting their understanding of the world, how it works, their place in it and their priority list of things to worry about and things to not worry about.

If they conceed that CCW is a good idea, then they may have to do so themselves and are simply not prepared to do so. So by making the CCW holders crazy, they can relieve themselves of any potential duty or reason to worry about their personal safety.

As in martial arts, the verbal arts are very often about using your opponents moves and momentum against him.

When your dad starts the crazy talk, try agreeing with him - "yeah dad, I knows its crazy, but I can't help but do what the voices tell me" or "yeah, I know all the CCW guys are jerks, but I have to carry my gun for 2 weeks solid in order to get into the jerk club - I was considering the league of paranoid idiots, but the jerk club has the best dental plan - so jerk club it is!"

Something wacky, off the wall and light - basically you are all "heh heh dad! yeah, its SO FUNNY how you kid me about all this crazy stuff, so Im kidding you right back - arent we CRAZY!?"

Thats another thing - refuse to have a serious, logical debate with him. He is not interested in "truth" or "facts" or any other nuggets you got. Dads do not learn this stuff from sons, accept it, understand it, deal with it.

Once you understand that these little events are not some meeting place where open minded people come and debate each other in an atmosphere of respect and academic thirst for wisdom...etc, you will be much better off.

Your dad is possibly worried about you - probably thinks you are a little obsessed with guns and CCW - and you probably are - he thinks he is going to keep pushing your emotional buttons and maybe? - change you? make you re-think your life decisions until you see the world his way? something.

Bottom line - your dad is not open to having his mind changed and may even be embarassed by the idea of having his mind changed by his son - who knows?

Respect this in your dad - give him the chance to save face and be your dad, appreciate that he may think he is doing this for your own good.

Refuse to debate - he has heard it and will not hear it. He is not open, you will not change him, this is about a lot of things, the least of which is guns.

 

[WonderNine]

Fumegator, you father sounds like my mother, only less Stalinist, but at the same time more annoying....

 

[labgrade]

"What it comes down to is this. You may simply ignore him when he brings it up or present an ultimatum: cut the crap or I don't speak with you. You can continue to argue with him and simply stomach it. You can burn the bridges and simply never speak to him again."

Yup, you can, but this sounds somewhat extreme from my perspective, & maybe I've read you entrely wrong. My mistake, if so.

When your father is dead, you will regret all those things you could never reconcile. Trust me on this.

I now have all the firearms my father held dear to him, & for all his own reasons, no matter the "political ramifications," my father was a "true-believer" - even though I always thought him a pure wuss regards true RKBA.

Nonetheless, & just a "reconciliation" with those still living, I'd suggest treadingy lightly enough to express your ideals, while still attempting to make way.

My Mom is approaching 80. She's much more "liberal" than was my Dad, but still too, she has seen some things I've pointed out regards RKBA, etc. - + some more libertarian ideals.

But none of it really matters much. She will soon die & not a bit of what I've "accomplished" will matter one stinking bit.

Likely you won't ever convince your parents - so what?

I know it's a passion, but it matters not.

Love them for what they are, cherish them for what they gave you (that you have the process to even "beat them up"for this is a check that they taught you well) & really, blow it off.

 

[duckfoot]

As a old soul in a 17 year old body long ago. I faced the same type of argument with the fokes about enlisting in the Marines. Moms, spouted that I was too young, too nice, will make you a baby killer, wife beater, drunkard, whore monger, etc....

Some times it is easier to say sorry, than ask permission.

Left for Recruit Training (Parris Island) the day after my 18th birthday.

Keep the peace and get out ASAP.

 

[BHPshooter]

Wow, I've got a lot of catching up to do. Thanks for the help.

You said your grandfather keeps a loaded Luger close at hand - I say, have a chat with him. On friendly terms, of course, and get his advice on the matter.

Well... he does keep his Luger loaded by the bed. I should mention that it is a .22 Luger -- it might help you get a feel for my Grandpa. What I meant to point out is that my Grandpa at least seems to grasp the point that an unloaded gun is a useless gun. My Dad belongs to the "keep guns and ammo locked up seperately" club.

My Grandpa, when he found out I owned guns (and hence, showed me his) he said, "You went through a background check, didn't you?"

From that, I assume that he's okay with the Brady Bill and GCA, etc.

Just don't call him on it or he'll call you paranoid

Too late.

Fumegator, you father sounds like my mother, only less Stalinist, but at the same time more annoying....

I feel for ya, man.

Keep the peace and get out ASAP.

Believe you me, it's on the top of my list.

This reminds me of when my dad was harassing me endlessly to move out towards the end of high school. Soon thereafter -- oh happy day -- I moved out to college. You can't believe how hard it was to move back in with my parents after that year.

Obviously, he wanted me to move out, which explains why he harrassed me about it so much. But what does he want when he "discusses" guns with me?

Wes

 

[Bill Hook]

Ya got yer brains from Mom. End of discussion.

 

[Balog]

This is a really personal discussion. You have to make your own choices. Letting someone mentally abuse you simply because they happen to be your parent is a bad idea IMHO. I'd say get a job (I know a guy who put himself through school working at Wendy's so you can leave if you want to badly enough), move out, and give him a simple decision to make. "Cut the crap and treat me with respect or I'm gone. Gone as in you're not coming to the wedding, you're not seeing the grandkids, and I'm not there at your funeral."

My wife had to make a decision like this with her own worthless father. She tried so hard to make him love and care about her, and he just kept stabbing her in the back. I don't know if your Dad is at that level. We simply can't judge from the small amount of info we have.

 

[gulogulo1970]

If you can't win the fight no matter how hard you try, don't start that fight. There were many things me and my Dad fought about. You learn which ones to stay away from. Which ones are not worth winning even if you could.
I strongly disagree with the post that says your dad is an idiot. He has as much right to his view as anyone breathing. My dad didn't agree with CC laws much. We fought back and forth with no clear winner. Then I figured out, I don't need someone else to believe what I do to validate my own beliefs. He and I can have both our views and it doesn't bother me anymore. You can't win everone over, accept it. And, when it comes to family cut them some slack because one day you may not get to argue with them anymore. Then, you may wonder why you argued over ultimately meaningless things with people you love.

 

[goalie]

People that care about you do not go out of their way to "push your buttons." People that care about you do not mock your beliefs. Just because someone shared genetic material with you does not mean that they care about you.

In contrast to those who say blood means so much, I grew up with a mother who was not nice, to say the least. I didn't even invite her to my wedding. Well, actually, I told her if she kept saying untrue and unkind things about my fiancee, she couldn't come. She kept her mouth shut for about an hour, and was not invited to my wedding. Shortly after, she died of cancer. I don't regret my words or actions in the least. Life is too short to spend more time than you have to in the company of people who do not care about you. She wanted to tear me away from my wife, who has been with me for about 10 years now, and, IMO, I did the right thing, as I am happy with my wife. I was never happy around my mom, ever.

 

[Feanaro]

"What it comes down to is this. You may simply ignore him when he brings it up or present an ultimatum: cut the crap or I don't speak with you. You can continue to argue with him and simply stomach it. You can burn the bridges and simply never speak to him again."

Yup, you can, but this sounds somewhat extreme from my perspective, & maybe I've read you entrely wrong. My mistake, if so.

When your father is dead, you will regret all those things you could never reconcile. Trust me on this.

I never said he should pick the last option. I merely condensed the other posts into a few simple options; Live with it, try to change it or cut his father off.

 

[Leatherneck]

OK Fumes, let me weigh in here as someone who's prolly your Dad's age or better. My son is 35, and we really, really love and like each other. It hasn't always been so. The like part, I mean. But for the most part, he and I are very much alike.

I make it a point to openly admire the traits he has that are better than me. He, in turn, bites his tongue every now and then--or makes kindly fun of me in a non-hurtful and humorous way. When we talk about any subject that either one of us has a hot button over, we both lapse into a real careful manner, so as to avoid being hurtful to each other.

Have you tried humor? Have you tried avoiding this topic that seems always to light you up? I realize it's him that brings it up, but you could always cut it dead by (respectfully--respect goes a long way with dads) ignoring it or diverting the discussion. If he doesn't get the hint, then that's too bad.

It would seem like maybe there are other issues at work between you and your Dad. Have you thought that through?

As several have said already: don't burn any bridges. He is in no way your enemy, so you must do him no harm. And vice-versa, of course.

Free advice--you know what they say. Good luck.

TC
TFL Survivor

edit to add: Read what Pendragon said, above, again.

 

[Baba Louie]

http://www.stentorian.com/2ndamend/leaflets/armed.html

Don't let him goad you too much fume... If he has a smile on his face thats a good thing, no matter how much it may irk you.

Soon, the little eagle will be leaving the big eagles nest, as it should be. Maybe not soon enough for you... or him, but soon.

www.thearmedcitizen.com has a good editorial (right side, scroll down a bit, updated 1/04) worthy of a read.

Statistics? What was Mark Twain's comments about, "There are liars, damn liars and those who use statistics"?

A. Per the first link... You ARE a RESPONSIBLE person! Period.
B. Enough people (citizens) use a firearm to thwart crime against themselves annually to make it a worthwhile effort... up to 2.5 million instances a year (if you buy that figure) in a country with a pop. of 280 million. Even half that number isn't a blip on anyones screen, especially if its your screen.
C. Know that if you had to, you could and would, I repeat, WOULD, be able to save your father and mother's life if Mr BG walked in the door (statistically an impossibility until you read the newspapers) today... or die trying. (And your father could do what? He'd still probably die trying, tho, ya gotta give him that.)
D. Some people are not meant to be sheepdogs, even if they are fathers... statistically speaking very few of dad's today are armed sheepdogs, present company excepted.
E. The weapon is the mind. A handgun is just a tool; one of many available to a thinking, responsible sheepdog.

'Twere it me, I'd sandbag him and just blatantly agree with everything he said and say things like, "Yep", "Sure", "You're right again, of course", "What WAS I thinking?"... SMILING ALL THE WHILE, until he realized that all the fun had gone out of firing you up. He'll know the truth of the matter, as will you.

Just remember, that when the bad guys of the world lay down their arms first... you'll still keep yours, because we both (all) know that the bad guys of the world will never lay down their weapons or stop their evil ways.

And some day, my dear fumegator, when you have kids... oh when you have kids... look back at the really great times and things your father taught you and shared with you and let these negative moments lie fallow.

Please.

The next thing you know you'll be pushing 50 like some of us.

Till then, stay alert, stay alive and take time to smell the roses now and then (carefully checking your six as you do) and remember the old adage concerning the 2 Rules of Life:
1. Don't sweat the small stuff. and
2. Its ALL small stuff.

Oh yeah, one of my dear old Dad's adages comes to mind, "I'd rather have it and not need it..." See? Dad's come in all types. Mine is a "Yellow Dog Democrat" who carries. Go figure.

 

[Diggler]

Fill out the paperwork, pay the taxes and get yourself a Class III full-auto. That will make him forget all about the CCW!

 

[SAG0282]

I'm lucky to have a father that enjoys shooting and understands fully why I carry concealed.

 

[BHPshooter]

Many thanks to all of those who have commented. It's nice to at least feel like you're not alone.

There have been many very good, very valuable suggestions. Thanks again for that.

I don't mean to sound like I'm bashing my Dad, I just get a little fed up with him now and again. Someone posted earlier and nailed it right on the head -- my beliefs in the right of self-defense are strong. At the same time, I want to be able to look up to my Dad, yet he changes his tune a lot about many of these things. Kind of a moral dilemma.

Just when I thought I was trying my hardest, I find out I have to try harder.

Thanks again for your support. I love THR.

Wes

 

[Baba Louie]

Just when I thought I was trying my hardest, I find out I have to try harder.

Just wait till you're a father some day amigo if you want trying hardest, then trying harder...
BTDT
Its all good.

 

[chrisinmo]

Fumigator,

Pardon me while I state the obvious here. Your Dad is screwing with you and only does it because he likes the rise he gets out of you about it. Try this reply next time. Whatever Dad. If he keeps talking about it just tell him you really don't want to talk about it and DON'T say another word about it. He keeps bringing it up because he gets off on pushing your buttons and your arguing and debating back with him feeds that. As long as he is getting satisfaction by agrivating you it will never stop. Just stop talking to him about it. It is not about guns or concealed carry it is about messing with his son and getting your dander up and aparently it works very well. Being an A$$ stops being fun when you get no response back to your behavior. Stop rewarding his behavior and it will soon go away.

 

[Balog]

Thefumegator wrote:

At the same time, I want to be able to look up to my Dad, yet he changes his tune a lot about many of these things.

I fully understand and empathize with this desire. However, some people simply cannot be looked up to. I dunno if yer Dad falls into that category. But if you have to try this hard to respect someone I'd imagine they aren't worth the effort.

 

[P12]

Thefumegator

I feel for you man.

I can't imagine why he would punch your buttons that way.

When my kids were younger, (about 11-12) they didn't stand up for themselves. They would present an correct point of view and then would back down when challenged. I had to really come down hard on them to get them to defend their position. I would play head games with them and then come down on them when they would not stand up for what they believed.

It took off and on about two years for them to stand firm on their convictions.

Now that one is married and the other still in college they will stand square in your face and defend their position.

I love it.


Your dad may be just playing with your head. He may want you to move out. Or he may just be a jerk.

What ever it is don't burn the bridge. You may need it some day.

 

[Baba Louie]

I had to really come down hard on them to get them to defend their position.

Bingo! We have a Winner! Sometimes, as Harry Truman said, you have to make the decision you know is right and back it up, no matter how much heat you take for it. "If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen"

 

[wingman]

In youth many things will "punch your buttons" as we age they seem very minor, good or bad family is important, if you feel this strong about someone
put some space between you, and in time perhaps one or both will change.

The feelings and process of growing up between father and son is difficult
at times but you will be amazed as you age how much you "act" like the
old man.

I also expect we would hear a different view point(story) from pop.