More Dad trouble... need help with my argument.

[Old Fuff]

For the moment let’s set aside the father vs. son issue, and simply look at the question, “are people that are legally licensed to carry handguns likely to brandish them when they shouldn’t, or to provoke shooting incidents that could have been avoided?â€

I think the answer is, “no†because if this was a widespread problem some 40 states wouldn’t have passed CCW laws, and you would see a high number of license revocations. You would also see a lot of inflammatory articles in the media. Neither has been the general experience. On the whole, those with concealed weapons carry licenses have proved to be far more responsible then the general public.

Of course the same cannot be said about some of those who illegally carry handguns – in particular what are commonly thought of as criminals.

The state of Texas has kept records concerning firearm misuse by license holders, and several threads have discussed the issue. Do a search and see if you find something.

Also, cut your Dad some slack …. When you are a parent you’ll understand.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Simple response.

In those states where CCW is legal, the rate of violent crime has been trending down.

Among those who carry handguns, the rate of violent crime is several times LOWER than it is in the general population.

If your Father's premise were true, violent crime among CCW holders would likely be going up.

In most states with which I'm familiar, a charge of brandishing a deadly weapon is normally counted as a violent crime.



Secondly, if your logic regarding the fire extinguisher is flawed, have your father explain why it is tautologically flawed.

 

[JohnKSa]

Somewhere, I recall reading that the arrest rate (per capita) was less in TX for CHL holders than it was for police officers.

If his argument hinges on CHL holders being the "kind" of people who go looking for trouble, then there are hard facts that say otherwise.

 

[capnrik]

I'm Fifty.

There, I said it. I can't believe it, but it's true. I still have a copy of the poem that I wrote for my father when he turned fifty. He is long gone, and never got to meet my son.

I begged for a pistol for my 17th birthday, and got it. A Colt's Huntsman, .22LR with a 4 1/2 inch barrel. I bought a cheap holster, and learned about damaging the blueing with an unlined holster.

My father agonized over the decision, but we went to Grant Ilseng's Sporting Goods in Houston and picked 'er out. The gun lived under my pillow, and went to Texas Tech with me in 1972.

I have a 12 year old son now, and he has a .22 pistol of his own. He also has a .22 rifle, a 6mm Remington, a 20 gauge Model 12 pump gun, and an AR-15. All these guns live in a gun safe, because I am not convinced that I am as good a father as the man that bought that Colt's pistol 34 years ago.

I remember the blood rushing to my head, and the surge of adrenaline that came from the feeling of that pistol slapping against my thigh. I remember desperately hoping that I would get a chance to be a hero and thwart some terrible enemy of society with my pistol.

It's a wonderful thing to be young and adventurous. It is another thing to be older and remember.

I agree with you, my young friend. But I also understand your father.

 

[artherd]

I said, "Does owning a fire extinguisher mean you're expecting a fire?" to which he gave the universal "you're logic is flawed."

Your logic is fine and perfectly sound. (and both in my opinion, and supported by statistical fact in states that allow CCW, correct.)

It sounds like your dad is having an emotional reaction, and is incapable of engauging you in a logical discussion on the matter.

You will first have to break his emotional reaction. Can you take him to the range with you?

It is amazing how just a little education with regards to the operation of firearms destroys their ability to instill fear. It certinly did so for me.

 

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Another vote for sending him here. Or have him PM me.

By your conduct in this forum you have shown through expression that you are a right-thinking person. You have an advanced intellect for your age. You also appear to be responsible where it counts. You do not trend toward rage or high emotion (except in disagreements with Da). You are merely attempting to exercise your right (god given) allowed by law (man given).

 

[Zundfolge]

He said that "the kind of people" who carry guns are the same "kind of people" who are short tempered, and will brandish their weapon to stop an argument.

Either your father is a short tempered person who would brandish his weapon to stop an argument (and is projecting) or he doesn't know what he's talking about.

He isn't taking into account 2 things:
1) people who get CCW licenses are generally more law abiding then even the police and,
2) the Zen effect of carrying a gun.

"The Zen Effect" is the phenomenon I noticed when I started carrying ... when I am armed, I find that I'm calmer and less easy to rise to anger. In part I believe this is because I know you can take care of myself if any trouble that arises and I'm also sobered by the knowledge that if I allow my emotions to take over someone could die and I could go to jail.



At any rate, don't expect your father to start using logic and honestly debating with you until you hit your 30s (if ever) ... he still has too much of his identity wrapped up in being being your father and he cannot bring himself to see you as an equal, and therefore give any weight to your arguments.

My suggestion is to stop arguing with him and keep your beliefs to yourself until you're out of the house (especially if they are threatening you with seeing a shrink ... if they are able to force you it may get in the way of you being able to legaly possess firearms in the future).

 

[Waitone]

I'm afraid logic will not help your case. You can assemble all kinds of incidents, facts, and publications to demonstrate your father's mistaken thought processes but that will not change his assumptions.

He has made a series of assumptions about you, guns, and people who tote guns. These assumptions are based in who knows what, but the fact is they exist. It is my experience his experiences will continue to mold his thinking until he experiences something he considers to be a life changing event.

Such an event could be you getting held up or worse. It could be your father experiencing a threatening situation where he is completely at the mercy of a psychopath. Could be a friend of his is injured by a bad guy. Once his assumptions change the logic of concealed carry becomes overpowering. .. not until then.

My daughter was as anti-gun as they come until one night when she had a gun stuck in her face in the lobby of a hotel. The guy she was talking to promptly pulled out a revolver (.357 mag snub) and convinced the bad guy to go elsewhere. Lessons: 1>it is never expected, 2>it happens fast, 3>she never dreamed they guy she talked to was packing, 4>no one was injured even though legal guns were legally pulled. Her assumptions were changed and now she thinks guns in general and CCH in particular is a really neat thing. Logic had nothing to do with her change.

 

[AZLibertarian]

Many others have noted that states that have passed "Shall-Issue" CCW have seen their crime rates drop. No Blood-In-The-Streets. Very occassionally there is an incident where a CCW holder uses a weapon illegally, but the vast majority are law-abiding, peaceful people. Editted to add the following point... The flip side of this argument is the increasing violent crime rates in England after the forced turn-in of guns.

I'll second the view regarding 'Zen'. I am much more calm, and more aware of my surroundings when I am carrying than when I am not. Your dad may be correct in one way, although not in the way I'm guessing he'd expect--People who carry are "looking for trouble", but (and this is where he goes wrong) we are looking for trouble so that we might avoid it. A man much wiser than I once said "Never go into any place with a gun, that you would not go into without one."

Dad's (and Mom's) do worry about their kids all the time. Mine are only slightly younger than you. But while they're approaching every definition of adulthood, I still worry. But not about guns.

 

[ScottsGT]

Never had a gun issue with my Dad. He let me carry the Model 12 to any turkey shoot I wanted as a young man living in his house. And I took the Marlin 22 for long walks in the woods and set up targets with friends at 15. But he always did have a "Commanding" attitude towards me, until I reached the age of 24 or 25. It was like a light switch was flipped on. or off in this case. I think he woke up one morning and decided that I was an adult, and he let me make my own decisions. BTW, he was a CmSgt in the USAF for 30 years, and had a lot of GI's he was in charge of, and believe me, he brought that attitude home with him, and kept it going long after he retired.

 

[Baba Louie]

What was that line my Dad told me once... "I'm never Wrong... I may not be right once in a while, but Son, don't ever say I'm Wrong"...
OK now that I'm also a Dad, I understand his point of view and try to remain open to being taught, even by someone who has fewer life experiences than I...

Fume... what Fuff and Mike Irwin said... now, ya just gotta work on the PROPER method of delivery until he (being your father) can show you what those numbers mean. You might ask him something like... "How many CCW's do you think have been issued since 1987?" and drop it. Later, "How many states allow CCW on a shall issue basis now?" and move on. Then, "I wonder what the % of CCW holders incarcerated for illegal use of their weapon is?" Finally, "Ever wonder what type of people apply for a CCW?"... and let it go. It helps if you know the answers before you ask... and if you can learn to bite your lip and not blurt out all that you know.

www.packing.org

Then again, remember that to him, he's right and thats that. Some Dad's are like that.

 

[Brian Williams]

He must have the 2 rules of "Fatherhood" stuck in his head

Rule 1. Dad is alway right
Rule 2. If Dad is wrong, see Rule 1.

Don't back him into a corner or you will never "prove" a thing to him.
Give him FACTS, Shut up, let it drop, and let him make the decision.

DO NOT ARGUE.

I know I tend to think this way, but I like guns and I thought it was real cool my daughter got her CCW.

 

[Gus Dddysgrl]

I am Perfessr's daughter, and yes he is always right and if he's wrong see rule #1. Dad's will be dad's and very often they say things because they know they can earn brownie points with mom cause she doesn't want to say it herself.

Do NOT try to argue with him all the time. Tell him the facts, prove to him you are responsible enough to carry all the time, and SHUT-UP!!!!!!! Continually pushing the subject in his face makes him made and not want to listen to you. Actions speak WAY louder than words.

He seems to like to shoot, but thinks carrying all the time is dangerous, right? Well then ask him how often people get mugged at their house or on the street? Where do the most crimes occur? Then if you get the chance find out who of his friends carry all the time. Let him know who of the people he hangs out with carry and show him that they are responsible.

You have the resources and the facts, but you don't have his respect or trust. Once he respects and trusts you then he'll truely listen to you, but till then he will be right. You also can't gloat if he does admit to being wrong, cause then he won't admit it anymore.

If you are still living at home you really do need to shut-up. I'm trying to move out too, and still have to keep my mouth shut a lot. My mom is the one that often is in disagreeance with me, but my dad is the one who is so hard headed. The best thing you can do is shut-up and prove to him you are right by your actions.

Keep us updated on how it's going.

 

[geekWithA.45]

The best antidote for this sort of thing...

Isn't an unnassailable intellectual argument.

The fellow might concede the argument or not, but they will often will not "admit" it into themselves and their thinking. There can always be some part of them that stubbornly holds out.


The best antidote is on the level of reality, and the tide can change when he discovers that someone he knows, trusts and respects has carried FOR YEARS, without any problem, and realizes that this guy isn't an exception, he's the general rule.

The best antidote is us: Sane, normal everyday Americans, who just happen to have a handgun immediately handy.

 

[BHPshooter]

Thank you all for your advice.

Yes, I'm just going to shut up, and silently agree to disagree. Hopefully within the next month or two, I'll be able to go get my own place.

I'm going to brush up on my facts until then, and maybe I'll drop a hint here or there in an inconspicuous manner.

Thanks for you help. It's much appreciated.
Wes