More Dad trouble... need help with my argument.

[BHPshooter]

Alright. I've had several arguments with my Dad concerning guns.

Now we're having the one along the lines of "carrying a gun means you're going out of your way to look for trouble."

I said, "Does owning a fire extinguisher mean you're expecting a fire?" to which he gave the universal "you're logic is flawed."

He said that "the kind of people" who carry guns are the same "kind of people" who are short tempered, and will brandish their weapon to stop an argument. "It's happened," he says. Yeah, it has -- sadly enough -- but I think he's overlooking how little it happens.

I just want to say "come on!" Several of you carry weapons, and although I don't know you personally, I know that you are good people.

Please help me argue with my bullet-headed old man.

Wes

 

[Standing Wolf]

I said, "Does owning a fire extinguisher mean you're expecting a fire?" to which he gave the universal "you're logic is flawed."

Nope. Sorry. Your father's objection is flawed. Firearms are like fire extinguishers, first aid kits, spare ties, tool kits, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera: useful things level-headed adults keep handy for emergencies.

Some people misperceive firearms.

 

[BHPshooter]

Some people misperceive firearms.

It appears my father is one of them.

Wes

 

[CB900F]

Thefumegator;

You haven't stated your age, I'm presuming it's under 18 & you're outta luck for a while. In any case, pick up a copy of Prof. John Lott's book "More Guns, Less Crime". You should read it regardless, it will give you solid, provable, information produced by a highly regarded scholar. If you can get your dad to read it, it may crack the bone barrier.

900F

 

[Mulliga]

Your logic is slightly flawed, at least in my opinion.

Although it's certainly possible, it's kind of hard to kill the average person with a fire extinguisher. Unless you can run faster AND bean the person on the head, fire extinguisher murders are relatively rare. I think his point is that guns are dangerous.

But a lot of things are dangerous. To more accurately refute his claim, you should make it a point that permit holders commit fewer crimes per person than almost any segment of the population (including some police departments - not to disparage any LEOs reading this, I'm just making a point).

Carrying a gun does not make you a psychopath that wants to shoot people, just as driving a car does not make you want to slam into buildings full of people, or carrying a kitchen knife want to make you slit your kids' throats. Unfortunately, some crazies and criminals out there will do such things. The fact remains that there are deadly weapons out there, criminals will continue to use them no matter what bans are in place, and that a person with a gun has an advantage over a person without a gun. So when some idiot draws his weapon on you and yours, you should tell your dad the first rule of gunfighting...

Bring a gun.

 

[Stand_Watie]

He said that "the kind of people" who carry guns are the same "kind of people" who are short tempered, and will brandish their weapon to stop an argument. "It's happened," he says. Yeah, it has -- sadly enough -- but I think he's overlooking how little it happens

Certainly some of the people who carry guns are those 'kind of people', although they usually don't bother with legal restrictions regarding carrying guns.

You might ask him what sort of person he thinks you are, and if he believes an inanimate object will change your character.

You might also point out that the population of people who have a permit to carry a weapon are far more law abiding than the general population as a whole, and ask him how that fits into his theory.

 

[BHPshooter]

You haven't stated your age, I'm presuming it's under 18 & you're outta luck for a while.

No, I'm 20. I've got about 10 or 11 months before I can get my CCW permit. Regardless, I'll look for a copy of "More Guns, Less Crime."

Really, my Dad is nearly impossible to crack. He's very stubborn, and even if I did prove that he was wrong, he wouldn't admit it. My goal is to stand up to his inane argument, and not have to have him gloat over me, like, "You still gotta lot ta learn, boy."

Thanks,
Wes

 

[berto]

Invite him here.

He can then defend his logic "on the level" with folks who aren't his children.

 

[rust collector]

Fathers worry. It's our job. We don't want our children anywhere near danger. As a firearms safety instructor, I try hard to make young folks understand how dangerous firearms are. Inculcating that sense of danger and responsibility in young people who watch stunt doubles run through hails of "bullets" and see their video game character routinely resurrected is a tall order. Reality is something we all try to avoid. Let's have a show of hands from everyone who has not made a will.

Actions speak way louder than words, of course. It seems to me that your dad's viewpoint will change only when he realizes that you have the wisdom to avoid trouble as well as the means to deal with it when avoidance isn't possible. That trust may take some time, and can't be won by a superior argument. It is worth working on, however, and I hope you will never miss an opportunity to demonstrate your skill at peacemaking.

 

[Archie]

You cannot successfully argue with your father.

It's an iron-clad fact that one's kid is never as smart as the parent.

Like Rust Collector said, it's part of a parent's job to worry. Plus, your dad may be arguing on behalf of your mother, who is really worried and in denial about the whole thing.

The matter will resolve when you are in your own home. Surely not before.




Good luck.


And remember this when you (at some future point) argue with your children, about anything.

 

[OF]

"carrying a gun means you're going out of your way to look for trouble."

I don't know how many people your father knows that carry a gun, but I know a whole hell of a lot and I can say without reservation that he is completely mistaken. The truth is exactly the opposite. I have found people who carry a gun tend to be far more responsible, careful, level-headed and even-tempered than the average joe.

- Gabe

 

[GigaBuist]

I, like many THR members, coule probably expound on the topic for hours. We see it every day and confront it nonstop it seems.

It's very simple: "Dad, would you feel uncomfortable sitting next to me if I had a loaded gun safely holstered? Do you think I'd shoot you?"

Hopefully the answer is no. It's not that I'd presume you're so insane that your father should actually fear for his life but I would assume he knows enough that his son wouldn't shoot him.

When dealing with family and close friends it's fairly easy, at least for me, to put the whole thing into perspective. Do not try and make a general case out of it. Keep the situation confined to only the people in the discussion and center around the sole question: "Do you think that I am going to go out and murder people? Wouldn't you rather I had a firearm at my side to defend myself? Have I ever given you a reason to think I'm going to "flip out" and start shooting people? If you were mugged a knife point would you rather I was armed or not?" Such arguments and points have worked very well for me. When people try and refute them based on the population at whole you just bring them back to the one on one situation at hand. Should I, me, myself, not be able to own a firearm? Is that your position?

If your parents don't think you can responsibly carry a gun then inform that they raised you wrong. Apparently they're confident that they created a homicidal maniac. See if that sticks.

I might be in your boat soon though. I pointed my mother, who likes to keep abreast of my life, at my blog which is generally full of political rantings on firearms ownership. This might make for some interesting comments.

 

[mete]

I've carried a gun for many years ,but I've never shot anyone . I guess ,according to your father's logic there must be something wrong with me ! It's just an insurance policy, like a fire extinguisher, like seat belts. I hope you get the best training you can find. Most of us who carry become very aware of the great responsibility and will avoid confrontation. When you're carrying leave your macho at home.

 

[hansolo]

Do you live with your father? If so -- and his attitude is, "My house, my rules" -- either: keep trying to use logic to win him over or....move out.

I'm not unsympathetic, but he has had many years to become opinionated and that's a difficult thing to undo. Good luck at chipping away the stone!

 

[BHPshooter]

GigaBuist, I agree wholeheartedly.

I also forgot to mention what else he said. "Do you know why I have guns?" he asked. "Why?" I asked, expecting a sermon. He said, "For hunting, and to occasionally to go shooting. Now I admit, I can see using guns for home defense -- like if someone breaks in -- but only at home."

My parent or not, I'm worried about him. I especially don't like the degrading way that he holds conversations either.

I've been working on them for a while now. I've told them about happenstances like Lubies, and others that I can't remember right now. They just treat me like a wacko. It really ticks me off because I'm not... They've even said that I need to go to a psychiatrist because of my view of guns, the Constitution, etc.

Basically, I feel like they treat me in a dehumanizing way, and I've had enough. I'm not going to bite my tongue anymore, I'm going to start arguing. I'm trying to brush up on my arguments to do so.

I appreciate your comments and help.

Wes

 

[BHPshooter]

keep trying to use logic to win him over or....move out.

I'm trying. I've moved out before (college), but had to move back in. I'm working on getting my own place.

Wes

 

[busdriver72]

You might point out to your dad he has elevated himself to a very high position; passing judgement and lumping everyone into one catagory.
I am a father, and I plan to soon get my conceal carry, and I will have no problem helping my daughter (who is 19) get one when she turns 21.
I will have no qualms about being able to defend myself and my family against armed, violent attackers. It seems your dad would deny me that right, and would be content to have people be defenseless victims. Those who do not carry and do not like guns are not in any way morally superior to those who do.
There are many states now that have concealed carry laws, and violent crime has dropped some. It isn't because there are less guns. Since the late 1990's, over 70 million have been sold...and that is added to the millions already owned. Violent crime is down because citizens are now able to actually defend themselves. A recent interview with prison inmates by John Stossel revealed that criminals laugh at gun laws. The Brady Law is a big joke to them. It is easier for criminals to get guns than it is for decent citizens. You can't stop criminals from getting guns. That is an absolute physical impossibility. These criminals also added they have no fear of police. They are easy to see and avoid. When asked if private citizens carrying guns bother them, they said that it did frighten them. Criminals entertaining the thought that a potential victim could be able to defend themself, matching force with force, is a deterrent to crime.
Your Dad makes big, blanket statements..."people who carry guns are...etc...etc.." I often respond to people this way:'Really?, for example, who? Give me names. If you can prove it, I'll agree with you."
Simply tell him to present you with concrete, overwhelming evidence.
he won't be able to.
The evidence is on your side, not his.

 

[jsalcedo]

My dad is the exact opposite. When I told him I got my permit he responds with:

" Cool! Have you had to shoot anyone yet?"

I don't know exactly how to take that response but I gather he approves.

Good luck on your dad. Maybe take him to the range and show him the types of people who are into guns and possibly break the stereotype.

 

[ojibweindian]

He won't understand CCW until he gets the s*** kicked out of him wihile walking the dog at night, or something like that.

Don't waste your breath.

 

[Carbonator]

This is a good example of "unseen positives" of gun ownership. People see murders, AD's, gang bangers, robberies, etc... They don't see ccw'ers, increased confidence, prevented rapes, prevented robberies, reduced crime, safer families, more polite societies... these are intangibles that rarely make the media.

Your Dad probably grew up only seeing the small fraction of bad ccw'ers who make the news screwing things up for the rest of us. AD's and gang bangers make the news, not responsible ccw'ers and those citizens who use guns to save lives.

Give him factual accounts of positive events where a gun made the difference.

In the end it doesn't really matter for your ccwing if your father disagrees, although we could always use more pro-gun people... so get to work!

 

[P95Carry]

Sad!! A real old buddy of mine and I always have same argument ... he refuses to accept logic. Thinks that by my carrying I ''invite trouble'' Sheesh!

I think I can say that with very few exceptions - we who carry on THR (and even just ''possess'') consider ourselves for the most part .. MORE responsible people ... not less!! Sure we'll have fun but ..... responsible fun.

Remind that dad of yours just what hell can rain down thru macho brandishment ... improper use ... any number of things that can bring the law down heavy. There is EVERY incentive to be safe and responsible.

The only gun ''owners'' he needs to be bothered about are criminals .. who have scant regard for law of course.

 

[Car Knocker]

According to BCI stats as of Sept 2003, there are 56,167 concealed weapons permits issued in Utah. Of those, 18,147 are in SL County and 7,180 are in Utah County. Seems to me that any time he goes to the store or a sporting event, there's someone (or several someone's) carrying in his near vicinity. Does he feel threatened everytime he steps out of the door? Does he think all these people are out there looking for trouble? Also seems likely that someone he knows is packing. Does that mean that he associates with people who are looking for trouble? No, of course not. By the way, it's easy to say your logic is flawed. Just, exactly, how IS your logic flawed?

In any case, it seems like he's staked out his position and nothing will move him short of a nuclear weapon.

Good luck!

EDIT: One other thing, BCI runs a background check on permit holders daily. Does he know any other segment of the population that can pass a daily check?

 

[Covey Rise]

Fume

Print this little tidbit of info off and give it to your Dad.

"In Texas, citizens with concealed carry permits are 14 times less likely to commit a crime. They are also five times less likely to commit a violent crime."
(Texas Department of Public Safety and the U.S. Census Bureau, reported in San Antonio Express-News, September, 2000)


On ABC's 20/20 Friday they had an article called Lies, Myths, and Stupidity what the media popularly reports incorrectly, giving the public misconceptions about the truth. by John Stossel

Myth No. 3 — Guns are Bad
America is notorious for its culture of gun violence. Guns sometimes do cause terrible harm, and many kids are killed every year in gun accidents. But public service announcements and news stories make it seem as if the accidents kill thousands of kids every year.
According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, however, fewer than 100 kids 15 and under are killed in gun accidents every year. Of course that's horrible, and I understand why demonstrators say we need more gun control.
But guess what? The Centers for Disease Control recently completed a review of studies of various types of gun control: background checks, waiting periods, bans on certain guns and ammunition. It could not document that these rules have reduced violent crime.
The government wants to say things like the Brady Gun Control Law are making a difference, but they aren't. Some maximum security felons I spoke to in New Jersey scoffed at measures like the Brady law. They said they'll have no trouble getting guns if they want them.
A Justice Department study confirmed what the prisoners said. But get this: the felons say that the thing they fear the most is not the police, not time in prison, but, you, another American who might be armed.
It's a reason many states are passing gun un-control. They're allowing citizens to carry guns with them; it's called concealed carry or right to carry. Some women say they're comforted by these laws.
Many people are horrified at the idea of concealed carry laws, and predict mayhem if all states adopt these laws.
But surprise, 36 states already have concealed carry laws, and not one reported an upsurge in gun crime

 

[cordex]

I agree with berto. Invite him here. I don't like debating by proxy anyhow. Or hearing third hand that someone likes to insult me when he doesn't know me.

Your father's baseless distrust of people who carry weapons is formed in much the same as a racist's ignorant hatred of a particular color of skin. He looks at a group and labels everyone in that group with the negative things he sees in the few worst individuals.

Curiously enough, after I started carrying a gun, I immediately found myself avoiding dangerous situations I might not otherwise have avoided to ensure that I never had to use my weapon.

 

[HankB]

They've even said that I need to go to a psychiatrist because of my view of guns, the Constitution, etc.

Well, next time they say this you can point out that Sigmund Freud said something to the effect of "Fear of guns is a sign of sexual insecurity." I'm sure you can find the exact quote with a little research . . . and perhaps suggest his hoplophobia has some psychological basis. (Of course, you should be prepared to move out a little sooner than may be comfortable . . . )