Dangit... More nonsense regarding my Dad and CCW. (long)

[Zundfolge]

I don't mean to divert this discussion but ...

I strongly disagree with the post that says your dad is an idiot. He has as much right to his view as anyone breathing.

If this position didn't come up so often I'd find it kind of funny. I've been in arguments with many people who as soon as you point out the flaw in their logic their retort is "You can't tell me what to believe" or "I have the right to believe whatever I want to". This doesn't make these idiots any more right, and its an argument usualy brought up to make them feel better without actually addressing the issue at hand.

Nobody said he didn't have the right to be an idiot. But just because one has the right to hold idiotic opinions doesn't mean they aren't an idiot.

Yes he has every right to his view as anyone else, but he's wrong and his wrongness is based on extremely flawed logic and a refusal to look at the facts ... ergo, he is an idiot.

He also has the right to believe the earth is flat and the moon is made of green cheese. I wouldn't stand in the way of his right to believe so, but he'd still be an idiot.

 

[thumbtack]

I think you need to just get new parents.

 

[Pendragon]

Uhm,

In defense of said "idiots", let me just say that for a lot of people, they realize that CCW takes a LOT of paying attention, training, money, energy, etc.

People may have all sorts of reasons why they dont CCW or even dont want you to - a lot of it comes down to their belief system.

Probably few normal people would disagree with someone using a gun when needed - but a lot of "Reasonable" people may think that the risk is low, willing to take the chance, worry about misuse, loss, mistaken identity, and all the other stuff we are all so sure will not happen to us.

I also think that a lot of otherwise reasonable people do not get on message boards and hash out all the logic of why they engage in certain behaviors and why they believe what they believe.

Face it - most people who are into CCW are as much into it because they just like guns. We are comfy around guns, guns make us happy, they are out little psychological narcotic. We talk about 'em read about 'em, fantasize about 'em, etc.

Sure there may be more to it - some are interested in the "Combat mindset" and history and warrior codes and justice and a whole lot of other things that make up our complex psyche's.

Most people are NOT wired this way and to them, a gun would be a bigger burden than comfort.

We laugh when someone goes through an airport with a gun that they "Forgot" - I find that unimagineable - but to some who CCW and are not "into it" like most here, it is a real possibility.

So - my point is, someone like the dad in question seems to think that using a gun in self defense is the right thing to do - but he may think the risks and yes, there are risks in CCW just as there are in not doing CCW - he thinks it not worth it. He has probably lived 50 years without needing a gun, so who can blame him? I only lived 24 years without needing a gun so I see it differently - but I understand why people think CCW is unneeded or too risky.

 

[goalie]

I also think that a lot of otherwise reasonable people do not get on message boards and hash out all the logic of why they engage in certain behaviors and why they believe what they believe.

If one is to passionately maintain an ignorant opinion, well, then they don't exactly fall into the genious catagory, do they?

 

[Pendragon]

I think thats a little unfair.

First, how many of your life decisions are you as convinced about as your gun decisions?

How and what you drive?
What you eat?
Your church preference/non preference?

What about where you live? Most people just "end up" somewhere because thats where they lived when they moved out of their parents home.

Did you "choose" where you live currently?

What about your line of work? What made you choose it and are you happy? Did you take aptitude tests or interview people in the field before you got into it? Or did you just "end up there"? How is the money? If you are unhappy, are you planning on making a change? Why or why not? If you made a plan, are you on track?

What about hwo you spend your money - do you invest? How do you make those decisions?

And so on and so on.


My point is - we cannot subject every single area of our life to the scrutiny that we, the members of this board, give to our interest in firearms.

Some people are as intense about exercise and diet as many of us here are about guns - I am a little envious, because I am probably more likely to die of self inflicted lifestyle choices than I am criminal attack - but guns are so much more fun than crunches and protein shakes.

Many people simply do not have the mental "bandwidth" to take on a full exploration of guns, why they are good, why CCW is good, etc - so they have to stick with what they know - or think they know until they have a good reason to invest the effort in "confirming" what they think is true to be true (or not).

If you can't see that most people behave this way, then I think you are naieve - or at least not a "genious".

 

[goalie]

I don't get into political discussions and debates on topics I am not informed on. Intelligent people don't.

Oh, and for your questions:

1. Yes, I chose to move back to Minnesota when I got out of the service. I had the money to get out and go to school anywhere, I chose here.

2. Yes, I chose to be an RN after quite a bit of research and life experiences. I have changed jobs twice to impove my quality of life.

3. I do invest, but my wife is a CPA and has a much broader financial background, so, to be honest, I usually go with her much more informed opinion. We also do have a financial planner that we run stuff by.

My point is - we cannot subject every single area of our life to the scrutiny that we, the members of this board, give to our interest in firearms.

MY point is that if those people you mentioned do not want to invest the time and effort to have an informed opinion, then I will not regard them highly. If you want to discuss with me medical ethics, I will offer informed opinions. If you want to discuss with me the differences in opinion that major economists have today, well, I will defer, as I am not well enough informed to have an opinion worth the oxygen it would take to give.

 

[Zundfolge]

Pendragon, I don't believe Thefumegator's dad is an idiot because he opposes CCW ... I think he's an idiot because he has (at least by what Thefumegator has posted) used stupid arguments against CCW ... arguments he apparently believes are reasonable and logical.


A couple of gems from Thefumegator's dad:

"Do you know what having a Concealed Carry Permit is about? Ego. Everybody that has one is an egotistical pig. You'll never convince me otherwise."

"the kind of people" who carry guns are the same "kind of people" who are short tempered, and will brandish their weapon to stop an argument.

Add to that the fact that he's constantly trying to push his son's buttons instead of having a reasoned debate and the possibility he may have threatened Thefumegator with psychiatric treatment because of his beliefs about CCW, guns and his intrepretation of the Constitution, and you have an idiot (well I can also think of a few more colorful terms too).

I'm sorry if you think the word Idiot is too harsh, but I just call them as I see them.

 

[Pendragon]

Whether or not his dad is an idiot is not something I am willing to weigh in on.

I was just taking exception to the idea that just because someone does not see things the same as you (ie: CCW) even when presented with the "facts" does not necessarily make them an idiot.

goalie: you are in the extreme minority. I think a lot of people have significant portions of their life that are relatively unexamined - I also think that it is almost impossible to get someone to focus on one of these areas (CCW, weight, drinking, financial management, etc) until they are ready.

I actually think his dad does not have a big problem with CCW, I just think he likes messing with his son which is a whole other thread of discussion. Again, I don't know - just my intuition. I think if it was a real issue, his dad would come down hard in a not very funny kind of way. Maybe, as some have guessed, it is just his way of hardening his son - then again, maybe I am giving him too much credit.

My bias is that I don't care too much what someones choice is in an area of their life - as long as they can back it up - if my kid was making a serious choice about something, I might poke at him and push his buttons to get him to think it through and strengthen his position - but maybe I am projecting this tendency onto the dad in question.

 

[Diggler]

Thefumegator,

Your dad IS getting you to think, is he not? It's like the martial arts experts who punch their fists into sand to harden them. You'll be that much more prepared when you debate a CCW anti who ISN'T in your family.

 

[azrael]

few points that I can make about this....

1..The good book says to "honor thy father and mother"..and you should do so..however ignoring him on subjects like this will probably work...me I would have been ALOT meaner than that but that is me (mentioning nursing homes and bribing the nurses to beat him)

2..I am a little surprised that Pres. of the LDS would object to the carrying of concealed weapons...is this for your area Temple or is it for all of them??just curious..

3..Me I carry when I goto church...If they dont like it then I will find a church that doesnt mind..The last time this came up I stated that Jesus didnt mind weapons so why should you? and besides, they didnt mind the money that I am tything (sp?) from my holster business!

I have a sister that is anti...doesnt approve of me carrying and still doesnt tell people that I have a job just because I deal with those "nasty" pistols for a living

My usual reply is for her to bite me when the subject arises and that tends to end the discussion.

 

[HankB]

When I used to have arguments with people that had views totally at variance with mine - I used to deliberately try to push THEIR hot buttons, and make THEM overact.

Thefumegator mentioned they're LDS, and he isn't happy about the Mormon church's ban on guns. If his father brings this up again, a good response might be "Yeah . . . that's why I'm not donating any more money to them. And maybe I'll change religions, too." Then walk away while he tries to come up with a comeback.

Next time his dad brings up psychiatric care because of Thefumegator's views on weapons and the constitution, say. "Oh, Dad, I didn't realize . . . I'm SO sorry . . . I just read that Sigmund Freud understood that fear of weapons is a sign of sexual problems . . . maybe a shrink would help? Do it for MOM if not for yourself"

Having a bunch of one-liners prepared for use (at the PROPER time) is very useful when dealing with people like these. Sometimes when THEIR buttons are pushed . . . they'll stop trying to push yours.

Think of it as verbal judo.

 

[BHPshooter]

Thefumegator,

Your dad IS getting you to think, is he not? It's like the martial arts experts who punch their fists into sand to harden them. You'll be that much more prepared when you debate a CCW anti who ISN'T in your family.

True, I suppose... he is getting me to think a little, but he could do it a lot better by not being such a jerk during discussions.

1..The good book says to "honor thy father and mother"..and you should do so..however ignoring him on subjects like this will probably work...me I would have been ALOT meaner than that but that is me (mentioning nursing homes and bribing the nurses to beat him)

Indeed, the Bible does say that. And I intend to follow that guideline... but honoring him and agreeing with him are two different animals.

2..I am a little surprised that Pres. of the LDS would object to the carrying of concealed weapons...is this for your area Temple or is it for all of them??just curious..

Well, the church's policy for a while has been that they are "inappropriate" in places of worship, which includes both churches and Temples. Now that they have (or will shortly) register with the State, it will make it illegal to carry a gun into a Mormon place of worship, if you refuse to remove it, that is.

This is just a Utah thing. LDS members in other states, depending on their laws, can still pack in church. A common misconception is that this is now doctrine -- it is not doctrine, it is a policy. However, it IS Mormon doctrine to obey the law.

I don't want to turn this into a religious discussion , but I kind of see this differently than most: In the beginning, Adam and Eve were given 2 commandments: To go forth and multiply, and to not eat the forbidden fruit... but there was a problem -- they couldn't keep the greater commandment (multiplying) without breaking the lesser commandment (partaking of the fruit).

Both the Bible and other Mormon scripture are FULL of the Lord's commandments to the people to defend themselves and their brethren. IMO, that's the greater commandment in this situation.

Besides, concealed means concealed, right?

If his father brings this up again, a good response might be "Yeah . . . that's why I'm not donating any more money to them. And maybe I'll change religions, too." Then walk away while he tries to come up with a comeback.

Dunno if that'd be too great an idea... My parents already think I'm an extremist, and they already call me a "white-supremacist militia member" all the time. (That pisses me off. I am not in any Militia, except for the one mentioned in the 2A, and I am NOT racist.) Saying something like that because of my belief in gun rights would put me absolutely off the page in their minds.

Wes

 

[P12]

Thefumegator

Wes,

In light of your last post!!!

and they already call me a "white-supremacist militia member" all the time.

You need to set down with him and have a heart-to-heart son-to-father talk. Tell him that if he values your's and his relationship at all, this topic will be off limits from now on.

That's me two cents worth.

Good Luck

 

[DF357]

Fumegator....

try to bear up under it. I was in a similar position with my Dad when I was younger. No matter what I did, I got things like "you didn't do that very well, why did you do it that way, you shudda done it that way, I see you haven't gotten that done yet, well it's only been 6 months....etc, etc etc."

All this type of criticism took place up until the time he came to my house one Thanksgiving ( I was in my 30's) and he started, " I see you haven't gotten that done yet".

I looked him square in the eye and said, "For the past 10 years, everytime you've come to my house you've criticized me, my work, or other things. If you do it one more time, you will not be welcome here." T-Day went on as usual after that day - not one response from him. In the past 20 or so years since then, everything has been great. I see him more than ever, we respect each other tremendously. He's nearly 80 and I'm very glad that I told him how it was back then. I don't think he realized how critical he was being and perhaps your Dad doesn't either.

I think I've noticed a trend for parents of young adults to be a bit overly critical of their children. I know that as my 2 boys got into their early 20's, I found myself being a that way too. I'd have to catch my self sometimes - often I wouldn't. I think it's a natural protection thing that the parent just can't stand to see their kid make a mistake. The criticism is one way of trying to help them, although it really doesn't.

Now that my kids are in their thirties, it's much easier to look past the things I see that I don't like. I still have to watch what I say, but it's easier.

I think they've gotten smarter and I've gotten more mellowed with age.

I'm not recommending you face down with your dad as only you know his temperment and the possible repercussions, but it worked for me and I think I learned from it too.

I really suspect that someday you'll be the flip side of the coin. I hope you remember what you went thru and try to do a better job. IT WILL BE HARD ! Remember life is a learning experience, everyday. Some learn quicker than others. Good luck.

 

[wingman]

I really suspect that someday you'll be the flip side of the coin. I hope you remember what you went thru and try to do a better job. IT WILL BE HARD ! Remember life is a learning experience, everyday. Some learn quicker than others. Good luck.

Excellent df357, I too have learned to '"keep my mouth shut"(my children in there 30's), it is a learning experience however difficult.

 

[Rogelio]

Pendragon:

I think the questions you posted are really interesting..I do not mean to change the thread's subject, but here are my answers:

1.- I drive defensively (sp?) and I drive a reliable car (Audi)
2.-I hired a nuticionist to determine my diet and I check with her every 2 months
3.-I am a catholic by choice
4.- I moved to my current residence as soon as I could afford it. Well located, low crime area.
5.- I decided I was dedicating my life to business, I have had really hard times but I am now comfortable. It took me a while to finish 2 majors (businesss, economics and a post grad in international commerce, 3 languajes -english, Spanish and French-) and to get my income steady, but it was worth it.
6.-I do invest, I may not get astronomnically high rentability, but is a medium risk investment.

I think that maybe not everyone is highly concerned about ALL the aspects of their life - I am sure I am not, as I am a smoker- but...what this all comes to....you need to be on your own to take all those decisions, because maybe your parents will not think likewise.

Regards

Rog

 

[Hawkman]

Fumegator,

When he tells you how statistically unlikely it is you will ever need a gun, calmly take all the batteries out of the smoke detectors, toss the fire extinguisher in the trash, then walk outside, cut the seatbelts out of his car and disable the airbags.

After all, how likely is it that he will ever need them?

 

[Pendragon]

Thank you Rogelio.

My point is simply that we should try to "Live Intentionally".

It is hard to do all the time - and sometimes, like in this situation, it can be uncomfortable and we can offer resistance - afterall, living intentionally forces us to act on new knowledge - often it is much easier to dispute the knowledge than make the requisite changes to our world view.

When I moved to Texas, I found the first month or two particularly exhilirating. Absolutely everything was new and unfamiliar and I had this sense of being much less of a creature of habit. Even the most mundane things like buying groceries had to be relearnd in some ways because many of the brands of stores and foods we were used to were unavailable here. I have been here 5 months so there is more habit now - but I did enjoy that new city feeling