Dealing with Dangerous Drunks

[MisterMike]

A couple of threads that have were active over the past couple of days started me thinking about the challenges of dealing with drunks:

-Drunk Cop Assaults Female Bartender: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=453682

-Drunk Attempts to Break in Apartment Door: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=450981

In both of these situations, alcohol intoxication was arguably a factor that contributed to the behavior of the aggressor/intruder. Having dealt with a few drunks in my day--both back when I was an LEO and since then--it occurred to me that this might be a good topic to discuss in Strategies and Tactics.

It seems that an inordinate number of violent crimes involve drunks. Certainly a lot of street brawls, which always carry the potential for serious consequences, occur when one or more of the actors has had too much to drink.

I can't recall ever getting any formal training on how to deal with drunks, but my own experience, along with my observations of how others dealt with drunks (successfully and unsuccessfully) led me to a couple of conclusions that may or may not align with yours. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.

First, while being drunk entails a loss of coordination and thought processing capability, my experience tells me that most drunks remain as physically capable of inflicting harm as when they are more or less sober. If anything, they may be a bit more capable, since they are less inhibited in their actions by a fear of getting hurt. So, it's unwise to conclude that a drunk is impaired in his ability to hurt you.

I seldom have seen circumstances where confronting a drunk aggressively turns out well. My experience, which seems to be consistent with what I've heard from a lot of police officers and EMTs, is that persuasion is a better tactic. Let me give an example:

A couple of years ago I was walking to work in downtown Chicago. A guy who looked to be an office worker was in front of me and was not navigating the sidewalk very well. He ultimately fell directly in front of a city bus that was waiting at a red light. A few good citizens ran in front of the bus and started waving at the driver, to keep him from rolling over the drunk guy. I and another gent grabbed the drunk and pulled him out of harm's way, and helped him to stand up. He was bleeding pretty heavily from his forehead, where he had whacked the pavement.

He was in no condition to move, much less go to work. When the other gent and I tried to convince him of this, he got pretty belligerent, let us know that he was going to his "f-ing office," and took off down the street. I called 911 and an ambulance crew arrived within a couple of minutes (the drunk wasn't making a lot of forward progress). The EMTs got the guy to talk to them, but he was not about to let them check him out.

A minute or so later, a cop car pulls up. The young officer did a great job of handling the situation. First, he made it clear that he was the drunk's friend: "Buddy, you need to get that checked out." This did not elicit a good response.

"Listen, I'm just trying to help you out." Drunk gets a little bit of a goofy, vacant smile. "You need to understand that you can't go into work like that. We can do this two ways. If you go with these guys and get checked out, everything will be cool. But if you refuse to do that, then I have to arrest you. I don't want to take you to jail. Whadya say?"

The drunk adopted an "Aw, Jeez" attitude at that point. He didn't want to get checked out at a hospital, but his buddy, the cop, had cajoled him in a friendly way by showing the drunk that he'd have to arrest him and take him to jail if he didn't go with the paramedics.

Overall, it was an impressive performance. And, while this guy was just belligerent--and not getting violent--the cop's approach definitely defused a situation that could have gotten much worse.

So, here's the question: What do you think is the best strategy for dealing with a drunk who has become or is about to become violent?

 

[mgkdrgn]

If it's in a public area and I can leave, I'll leave.

But if he just kicked in my door ...

 

[Steel Talon]

If it's in a public area and I can leave, I'll leave.

But if he just kicked in my door ...[

This

 

[memphisjim]

um i think the best strategy is offer them a drink ;P

 

[Dogbite]

I was talking to my son about this a few days ago. We were talking about self defence and such. I said, you can cut out 90% of the problem by not being where people are partying and getting stupid. Also, to alleviate some of the problem, remember what a cop friend of mine says. "Nothing good happens in public after midnight".
Like another person said, if he comes breaking down my door, well, that's a whole different ball game. I have handled some drunks in my day, with holds and come along techniques. It all depends on the situation I guess.

 

[Grey_Mana]

So, here's the question: What do you think is the best strategy for dealing with a drunk who has become or is about to become violent?

The drunkenness is incidental, the violence is the essential issue. Protect yourself, your loved ones, your property. Leave people and situations alone, if you don't have a need to be involved. Golden Rule.

 

[Oyeboten]

Clearly, there are many kinds of drunks, or variations of tempremental lability for any given drunk.

I'd say definitely, according to one's lights, intend harmless and non-escalating developments when time and circumstances permit.


Same as for dealing with anyone who is having demeanor issues...


I've seen mediocre-average-jerks, become truely psychotic/sociopathic when they've had too much to drink.


Such people are 'dangerous', and given a long enough time-line, will end up doing very bad things to others, or, being stopped pro-tem or permently, while trying.

 

[Smith44]

I agree that persuasion is generally a better tactic than confrontation when confronted with a drunken individual. Since drunks have poor decision making abilities and tend to act based on emotion rather than reason, you have to appeal to their emotions.

So many hormones are being affected by alcohol in the body (testosterone levels are lowered in males), and subsequently released by the body to react the increased blood alcohol level (LH and others to counteract the loss of testosterone), that emotions run very strong long after rationality has been lost.

Although it is sound to tell people to situations that promote drunkenness entirely, it is not always possible. Sometimes you may just end up in a confrontational situation with a drunk, and I think the OP has a good point that we should all consider the best way to handle such a situation as to avoid violence and harm to yourself and others.

 

[Oyeboten]

Probably...a good, old fashioned 'Karate' Blow to the rear or rear side of the Neck, is a desirable option to bear in mind...thus making for an instant 'Braham's Lull-uh-Bye' for the poor miscreant sot, and, their misdemeanor ongoing...


Had I been there for that supposed Policeman's abuse of the Bar Maid...I would have considered that manuever as a decent enough choice.


Once they are knocked 'out', one may use their tie or some other thing to secure their Hands behind their back, arrange them for their being comforable as possible and breathing alright and so on, and assay further options as one sees fit as for calling 911 or calling the Police, or just leaving them as is for others to deal with, and leaving, or whatever, according to taste or judgement.

 

[mudriver]

As a martial arts instructor I often get asked the question - what should you do in a bar fight?

My answer - do not fight in a bar!!!
But if you must - stay sober - its hard to fight well drunk!

Drunk people aren't hard to beat up (in my experience), but they can be hard to stop and can be dangerous. They tend to not experience pain like sober folks, intimidation doesn't work nor does logic. Persuasion "hey let me get you another drink instead of fighting" is almost always the best method.

Dealing with a violent drunk you can usually outrun them, or if that fails - go for a knee or the eyes; pepper spray can work here. Compliance moves like Hap Ki Do can also work, but you gotta get close and that can get you hurt.

 

[Oyeboten]

Yeahhhh...but not everyone knows Martial Arts moves.


I don't...or, the only one I sort of know, is a stout 'chop' to the side or back of the Neck.



But absolutely...don't "drink" to any threshold of impair at any Bar...consider to leave if trouble seems brewing...and, as others have reminded, "After Midnight", and to which I would add - especially on New Years or any other Holiday - people who've been drinking, can readily turn unpleasant on the slenderest pretexts.

 

[Hugo]

Being nice with the drunk at first like the cop did in the original post is a good start. If that doesn't work, then it's time for Plan B in the self defense toolbox. Usually this means leaving unless it's your home.

 

[highorder]

the only one I sort of know, is a stout 'chop' to the side or back of the Neck.

Does that really work?

 

[Oyeboten]

Like a Light-Switch...


Well, I s'pose, if done weakly, or too hard, then not-so-good...but, shocks the Spine and Nerves...'lights out'...and no worse for wear later...


Now, just to be fair, I have never done it, but, I've seen it done, and it appeared forthright and within the ability of any one who has good reflexes and average co-ordination, and who can make their flat open Hand a firm 'blade'.

And, for seeing it done, I have held it prospectively in my figurative Tool Box.


The only move I myself have ever done, was a sound 'Roundhouse' to the temple, since the assailant was facing me, and was a much larger and stronger fellow than I am, though for present purposes, this person was 'sober', and he went 'lights out' very nicely and instantly...


'Jaw' is good also...where, if done well, puts the recipient into being knocked 'out' instantly...or at least dazed enough for a follow-up, which will lay him down.


Don't get me wrong, I'm no 'fighter', and I have about zero fighting skills and less training...and the last thing I'd abide or want, is some hideous protracted punching and wrestling contest, hence, if possible, I'd prefer alacrity and simplicity, and tidyness, if I'm to engauge at all.

And too, some people, drunk or sober, have amazing tolerance to things which would fell anyone else.

Not so good, if one is facing such a person...but such people, usually, have a bearing, a 'look', and one would maybe realize that it's no good even trying.

 

[shark40sw]

I spent almost 10 years working as a doorman (not bouncer) in nightclubs, illegal after hours, and more raves than I want to even try to count. During which time I've had to deal with everything from drunk frat idiots to heavily "medicated" street freaks to patch wearing bikers. I can't say I've ever used the "Canon judo chop" (to those of use old enough to recognize the term) and wouldn't recogmend it. I would however recogmend some reading on this subject at Marc "animal" McYoung's No Nonsence self defence site

 

[Oyeboten]

I was thinking of it for the Cop-on-Barmaid Battery scene...since, the assailant was occupied with worrying his victim, and, presenting his back, or in this consideration, the back of his Neck, for the attentions of any one interested in felling him.


For an assailant close in and facing one, it'd be far more difficult to do, especially for someone not well versed or practiced.



Just musing...as for having wondered what I would have done, if...I'd have done anything at all, forceful intervention-wise, in that situation.



Many people have very resilient Heads, far as a Blow to the front or rear or upper area of the Head goes...


Side area, by the Temple, where the Skull is roughly flat...is more liable to deflect inward, occasioning brief hydraulic pressure on the Brain, which can cause the recipient to loose consciousness.


But possibly the best, if one is to the side or the rear of someone one prefers to 'stop', is the below-the-Skull area of the Spine directly, where, a sudden forceful deflection, inturrupts or effects the Nerves, or compresses the Spinal Fluid occasioning a Hydraulic pressure on the Nerve Bundle or Cord, but regardless of the mechanism, can cause pretty well instant - if transient - incapacitation, anyway.


Which buys time then, for whatever further attentions or adminstrations one feels are appropriate.

 

[Jeff White]

In case you aren't aware of it strikes to the head and neck can be considered deadly force. Before you start suggesting unarmed combat tips out of a book you bought from the back of a magazine, I'd suggest you get some real combatives training before you get yourself hurt or arrested for murder 2 or manslaughter...What's the next suggestion the Vulcan nerve pinch

THR isn't the proper venue for a discussion of how to quickly incapacitate someone in unarmed combat as those kind of lessons don't lend themselves well to written descriptions.

 

[Oyeboten]

Hi Jeff White,



I was sharing thoughts I have for my own conduct, and my own practical, operative understanding, limited though it be, as regard a senario this thread has considered...I have not been giving 'advice', and I have not been relaying any info from any 'book'.

I have only felled a few large violent people, either to protect others or myself, some were drunk, some not.


Hence, my own experience is limited to a few fairly humane and brief use of force situations, rather than 'deadly'.


I had clearly suggested that blows to the Head from the rear, or front, are not a very good means from what I have seen, for incapacitating large violent drunks, or various violent aggressive others.

A strong or determined man, drunk or not, can reliably shake it off and not be very inturrupted.


Blows to the side of the Head, or hard blows to the Jaw, from what I have seen, and in my own experience in delivering them, can be fairly reliable for downing a large, drunk or not, violent aggressor.


In my own acceptance, a rightly delivered 'chop' to the back of the Neck, is probably the most humane, least damaging, and possibly the most effecient means of felling an violent aggressor, if it is convenient to deliver such a blow.


Please, feel free to share thoughts about your own prospective conduct in such a scenario ( big drunk beating diminutive barmaid, possibly imminenly killing her with hard punches for all one knew, ) or, your own actual past experiences which may in some way apply.


I believe that the whole point of disussion, is 'discussion'.



Phil
Las Vegas

 

[mcdonl]

I seldom have seen circumstances where confronting a drunk aggressively turns out well. My experience, which seems to be consistent with what I've heard from a lot of police officers and EMTs, is that persuasion is a better tactic.

I agree... I have been convinced to do several things I would not have normally done while I was drunk.

 

[czarjl]

In college I was an RA (resident assistant) for 4 years the last 1.5 as the Head RA (college was 5 years for me because I got activated for O.I.F.), so dealing with drunks was an every day occurrence for me. I got rather proficient at dealing with drunks. The school also had a policy that did not allow me to lay hands on anyone (if it came to that they said I should call the cops and wait, the cops had a good response time but it was sometimes and interesting minute or two).
Some of my hard learned lessons:
Drunks are unpredictable (even ones you know and have dealt with hundreds of times).
Persuasion and soft tactics often work better than force.
Never turn your back or get yourself cornered and maintain situational awareness.
Drunks often have drunk friends.

In the dorms my best defense was to be thinking one step ahead and take control of the situation without escalating it (can’t walk/run away due to my job). I did have several situation were it was going bad in a hurry, I was not allowed to lay hands on them that include pepper-spray (I checked) but its amazing how especially at night a very strong flashlight can have similar effects and temporally blind some.

So today my tactics are as follows:
In public avoid if possible, get away if possible, and if absolutely necessary use the appropriate amount of force to be able to get away. I’m not out to win any fights just make it home safe.

In my house (like drunk pounding on door) I would secure the family and arm my self, then call the cops and wait for the cops. I would be yelling at the drunk that the cops are on there way and I’m armed. If my family is in danger I will take the appropriate actions to stop the treat. I see no reason to “go after” the drunk, I feel that only increase my risks.

 

[DHJenkins]

As a former bouncer in a club that held around 2,000 (with an occupancy of 660), I learned that not being confrontational and blaming someone else for what you're telling them to do is by far the best approach.

First off, at 5'-10" @ 160 pounds, I was the smallest guy there. The 'next size up' guy was 6'1" and weighed 225. They increased in size, strength & weight up to 6'-6" @ 410lbs.

Out of kicking out literally hundreds of drunks, I was "assaulted" exactly zero times. On the flip side, the 'big guys' would nearly always get argued with, swung at, etc... It's not because they were any less couteous than I was, it was simply because they were huge and threatening, and people don't like to be "bullied" when they're out of their minds drunk.

Obviously, the best thing to do is avoid them. If that's not possible, be respectful. Commiserate, or simply distract them by changing the subject - drunks do not have long attention spans, and a statement like "you know who's fault this is, the GD terrorists, that's who!" can work very well. It doesn't matter the situation, if you can distract a drunk long enough, they'll usually forget why they're pissed off and will settle down.

If you do feel the need to intervene, doing so alone is one of the most dangerous things you can do. Bouncers aren't necessarily great at "kicking a$$", but they are great at swarming a drunk/fight and working together as a team to 'restrain & eject'. Plus, he could have friends - though most of the 'out of your mind drunks' are usually alone.

Bottom line, if you aren't being paid to take care of it, and are not a part of the situation, leave it alone - especially boyfriend-girlfriend beefs. Attack the guy that's beating on her, and you'll likely have the girl trying to scratch your eyes out. Let the staff handle it. That's what they're there for.

 

[Jeff White]

I had clearly suggested that blows to the Head from the rear, or front, are not a very good means from what I have seen, for incapacitating large violent drunks, or various violent aggressive others.

A strong or determined man, drunk or not, can reliably shake it off and not be very inturrupted.


Blows to the side of the Head, or hard blows to the Jaw, from what I have seen, and in my own experience in delivering them, can be fairly reliable for downing a large, drunk or not, violent aggressor.

Blows delivered to any part of the head or neck can be fatal. It's just that simple. You should never strike anyone in the head or neck unless you would be justified in the use of deadly force. There are plenty of people spending their days in the custody of the state because they got into a fight, struck their opponent in the head, face or neck and their opponent subsequently died from the blow. What may have been no charge because of a mutual combat situation, a battery or aggravated battery charge quickly becomes manslaughter or 2d degree murder. Never strike the head or neck unless you are justified in using deadly force to resolve the situation you are in.

Please, feel free to share thoughts about your own prospective conduct in such a scenario ( big drunk beating diminutive barmaid, possibly imminenly killing her with hard punches for all one knew, ) or, your own actual past experiences which may in some way apply.

I've been in more fights with drunks then I care to remember, came with the 22 years I was a police officer. I've found OC effective, never once had it fail, but I know that it might. I've also used stunning blows to the chest (solar plexus), strikes to the nerve on the outside of the thigh just above the knee (usually puts them right on the ground) and pressure point control techniques to control them once they were down. You can use an arm bar take down easily from behind to put them on the ground. Baton strikes to the large muscle mass in the biceps work well too. Again I reiterate, if you are going to be striking the head or neck, you are using the same level of force as if you shot the person.

 

[Titan6]

As a junior NCO living in the barracks in Germany almost two decades ago I had more than a few rows with drunks coming back to the barracks causing problems.

Being sober gives you a huge advantage because real drunks often telegraph their moves nearly a second or two prior and simply are not thinking properly. Most of the time I was larger than whoever was causing the disturbance and that also tended to have a "calming" effect as well. I never had any training on dealing with drunks so I don't have much to recommend except mostly what not to do. You have to be calm, professional, reasonable, agreeable and firm. I tend to agree with Jeff that beating people in the head is not wise and the one time I tried that (with a bottle) it went horribly wrong because the guy wasn't even stunned, just pissed off and bleeding everywhere.

I only really had problems twice. On the two occasions where the drunk was larger or more dangerous than myself:
- A drunk was causing a serious disturbance and attacked the CQ and had him stretched out by the time I got some clothes on. I got some guys together and we gang tackled him but then made the mistake of locking the guy in his room until the MPs showed up. He had actually taken some LSD and decided that he could fly and jumped out the third floor window. He went to the hospital and then home to the states with some serious internal injuries and a broken wrist and ankle. Luckily for us when he jumped, he did it right in front of the MPs as they were pulling up to the barracks so we were never held responsible. The commander thought for a long time that we had thrown the guy out the window even though the MPs saw him jump.

- The other case involved a very large soldier who was beating the hell out of his roommate. I worked out with the guy at the gym from time to time and knew I was well out matched strength wise. I grabbed a broom and poked him with the blunt end in the gut and chest repeatedly thus keeping him away from me. He was too drunk to catch the handle and kept trying to get me in a clinch but never could. Eventually more guys showed up and he went for ride in the MP car till he sobered up. I think I was lucky more than anything.

I have never really seen anything good come out of the bottom of a bottle of liquor.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

We used a bit of thinking to stay several steps ahead of the drunk.

A happy drunk is very easy to put to bed. A onery drunk needs to be ducttaped to the bed with a knife on a string round the wrist for morning light.

Oh an by the way, the rig would be disabled just so with a clipboard left on the steering wheel telling the now sobered up and hungry ex-drunk what we did and why and how to restore his rig into safe operating condition.

And there would be several of us boxing in this drunk so he cannot move until sober. And the rig would require several maintaince steps before becoming capable of moving.

These would go on in the truckstops where drinking was availible at the time.


I ran into a drunk exactly twice down town. I kept going. Blew right by and stayed on my mission. Being sober about 24 years and counting gives me good understanding of how drunk is and I can read em coming and going.

I avoid them and stay ahead of them mentally and physically several steps as they telegraph body language thier thoughts, aggressions or whatever before they acted on them.

Would I attack a drunk? No. What I usually do is get out of the area. I used to keep a silver flask (Totally filled with normal tap water) with a soldered shut lid and toss it to a drunk who just wont quit me.

While that drunk staggers about trying to open that flask to get some more to ease his thirst and desire for more of spirits, we make good our escape.

I never get to find out how long it takes before they see that the lid is soldered shut and add 2+2 and that is a good.

A sober person will see the ruse and get violently angry at the trickery but a drunk? They are just... focused on one thing.. that silver flask in thier hands cool to the touch and sloshing with promise of more drink.

We live in a dry county now. We aint had to resort to anti drunk trickery and avoidiance in years.

But I remember some of my drinking buddies two decades ago and when they have enough to drink, they actually became quite sober and dangerous due to being impervious to pain and start looking for a good fight.

THOSE are the ones I hate to run into. The kind that is unable to function properly unless drunk.

 

[kyo]

well, it depends on what the dangerous drunk is doing to be dangerous. if he's considered dangerous for just being drunk, then he needs to leave the premises.

Best way is to apologize for whatever happened, offer them something like a beer, or some food, and ask them to sit and talk with ya until said beer or food arrives. Then just wait for authorities.

If they are already violent, either enough people will stop them, or if need be you would have to use your weapon. I am curious on how shots to the pelvic area and to legs affect movement of said drunks. If they feel pain in a different way but the bone breaks in their pelvis, do they still fall because of mechanics?