Dealing with Dangerous Drunks

[Oyeboten]

Blows delivered to any part of the head or neck can be fatal. It's just that simple. You should never strike anyone in the head or neck unless you would be justified in the use of deadly force. There are plenty of people spending their days in the custody of the state because they got into a fight, struck their opponent in the head, face or neck and their opponent subsequently died from the blow. What may have been no charge because of a mutual combat situation, a battery or aggravated battery charge quickly becomes manslaughter or 2d degree murder. Never strike the head or neck unless you are justified in using deadly force to resolve the situation you are in.

I was referencing situations where the whole point of intervention, was to save a Life, or, to defend one's self against imminent bodily harm or death, if leaving and evading was not possible or morally acceptable


I'm glad you had years of special training and techniques.


I do not.


If punching someone in the Jaw or Temple is not acceptable to you, to save one's own Life, or the Life of another, or to prevent grevious bodily harm to one's self or another, then, lets just agree that I respect your opinion, and it is duely noted.

 

[Dallas Jack]

As I was raised by alcoholic parents I've been around drunks most of my life. Long enough to become an alcoholic myself. (been dry since 2002) I've pulled many a drunk off of someone. If their attention is on someone else they aren't that hard to handle. If on the other hand you are the one they blame for all their troubles, you are sorta screwed. Try and placate them and talk them down. Tell them you agree/understand and become their best bud. They will soon forget what the beef was.

I have had to pull a drunk off of a woman he was choking and talking doesn't always work. Sometimes you have no other choice but to put them down. A knee on the back of the head holding them down generally gets their attention. Sometimes. Some are just full of p##s and vinager and just will not stop struggling. I've never found a good answer for those types.

Since I've been sober I just stay away from anywhere that there is serious drinking going on. Haven't had to deal with a drunk for many years now and I want to keep it that way.

Dallas Jack

 

[bukijin]

I did security work in bars and clubs for a while which is a job I hope I don't ever have to do again. While I'm no expert compared to other contributors to this thread, I would like to agree that drunks are unpredictable and capable of sudden and shocking violence.

I worked with one guy who was a genius at talking people down and out of a venue by being reasonable, non-confrontational and firm. But experienced and capable as he was, he was once stabbed 7 times in a matter of seconds by a friendly, happy drunk who suddenly turned on him. (luckily survived but spend time in hospital) Everytime I got hit at work, I would be admonished for "getting too close" (before it began). As long as you avoid getting knocked out by their first attack when it comes, it is a real advantage to be stone cold sober when fighting a drunk.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Oyeboten,

The only thing Jeff said was that blows to the head or neck were potentially lethal force, and should be considered as such. There is no debate over justifiability involved here. IF you plan on hitting someone full force blows to the head or neck with an empty hand, that should be considered potentially lethal force. Period.

One analysis of DOJ homicide statistics indicates that empty hands are more lethal than impact weapons:

2006 Homicide %’s by Weapons Category: Firearms; 68%, Edged
Weapons; 12%, Empty Hands; 5.5%, Impact Weapons; 4%.

Empty hands death rates should warn you that if you are engaged in a
fight where you are about to be on the ground you need to understand
you have a reasonable chance to end up dead! -- http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2008/LESSONSFROMUSDOJ.pdf

lpl

 

[czarjl]

Funny side story, I once had a drunk tell me he was going to Kick my A$$ so I responded with “Your right you will, but do you really want to have sore knuckles and have to deal with the cops, cause I really don’t feel like going to the hospital tonight. How about we say you beat the s#it out of me and skip the hole punching each other thing.” He was dumbfounded by went with it. Some times you get lucky.

 

[hankdatank1362]

I've been a bartender for the past 4 or 5 years (since I turned 21), but I tend to work at nicer, more upscale bars.

This doesn't mean that we don't get our fair share of belligerent drunks. We get just as many as your local dive bar or pub.

However, ours are usually men, ummm... "past their prime" of life. THis means two things:

1) They are probably getting drunk on $15 martinis

2) They're MUCH less likely to attempt any sort of physical violence

But experience dictates that it's ALWAYS much better to attempt to verbally disarm the situation (verbal judo anyone?) than engage in physical violence. And usually more effective.

And the older (and hopefully more mature) I get, I realize I can't stand going out where large numbers of people my age will be drinking. I was cajoled into coming out the other night for a going away party for a buddy heading back to Lowng Iiiiland. We headed to a local bar/nighclub mecca known as "Celebrity Circle." No celebrities, but about 10,000 drunk college/mid-twenty-year-olds, all drunk and acting stupid. I lasted about thirty minutes.

I enjoy drinking as much as the next guy. However, I do it responsibly (designated driver) and usually in quiet, intimate settings like a nice restaurant, bar, or inthe privacy of my own home.

 

[DammitBoy]

DHJenkins has it right.

I work as a bouncer in a club every Thursday, Friday and Saturday night. We deal with lots of drunk really violent redneck hillbillys.

The most effective method of dealing with those that are still coherent is to talk them out of the situation. We take them aside and have a quiet conversation with them away from the music and any friends they might be trying to impress.

If they are compliant, we let them go back into the club with a warning about future behavior. This works very well 90% of the time. If they refuse to comply, we take them out the side door.

Rule#1 is never approach, confront or walk out a drunk by yourself. We swarm and subdue any violent individual and get them out of the club.

As far as getting physical goes, if you have to do more than restrain them, a sharp blow to the side of the neck usually works. If they have a weapon, a sharp blow to the wrist usually works.

Maglite, accept no substitutes.

 

[308win]

I've been a bartender for the past 4 or 5 years (since I turned 21), but I tend to work at nicer, more upscale bars.

This doesn't mean that we don't get our fair share of belligerent drunks. We get just as many as your local dive bar or pub.

However, ours are usually men, ummm... "past their prime" of life. THis means two things:

1) They are probably getting drunk on $15 martinis

2) They're MUCH less likely to attempt any sort of physical violence

Most of the time a person doesn't have just one and suddenly become dangerously impaired. It seems to me that an important action is getting lost in the telling here. If you are a victim of a drunken assult or stand to incur any type of cost as a result of a drunk's actions you should get yourself a really good civil attorney and sue the hell out of the last bar the drunk in which he was served. If enough victims would hold enablers accountable for their actions things might change for the better.

 

[MaricopaKid]

Over 40 years ago I pulled SP duty at Beeman's Center at Subase Pearl. Any WestPac boat sailor has been there. At my orientation, the MA told me that if I pulled my baton, be prepared to have it introduced to a part of my anatomy that would be painful.

At 5'11", 155-60#, I relied on isolating and talking. We were admonished about EVER striking anything other than limbs. I've delt with hundreds of drunks, and only used my stick once. A big dude swung at me with a bottle, and I double-handed a blow to his thigh. Went down like a sack of "taters!

 

[Deltaboy1984]

In college I worked for a Frat house as a Cooler. I was able to talk down all but 2 over the 3 years I worked for the KA house. But I was covered I had a OD LEO in the House plus 2 6.6 300 pound Q-dogs that worked the door with me.

 

[Avenger]

Drunks generally have SLOW reaction times, use that to your advantage. Step into their swing, sweep the leg as you push them backwards HARD. They go down and usually crack their head on the ground pretty hard. Either way, they are out of the fight. Now, at this point, your options are leaving, holding them for the cops, or putting the boot in a few times....

 

[hankdatank1362]

If you are a victim of a drunken assult or stand to incur any type of cost as a result of a drunk's actions you should get yourself a really good civil attorney and sue the hell out of the last bar the drunk in which he was served. If enough victims would hold enablers accountable for their actions things might change for the better.

I agree 100%. Unlike most bartenders, I will refuse service to someone in a heartbeat if I think they even pose a possibility of becoming a problem. Too few bartenders realize that it's their rears on the line, not just the bar/restaurant's. TIPS certifiation helps, espescially in states where it's not mandated prior to employment.

 

[catspa]

308win:If you are a victim of a drunken assult or stand to incur any type of cost as a result of a drunk's actions you should get yourself a really good civil attorney and sue the hell out of the last bar the drunk in which he was served. If enough victims would hold enablers accountable for their actions things might change for the better.

How is this any different from trying to sue a gun dealer when a criminal commits armed robbery with a gun he sold? I feel that the drunk himself should pay the consequences, not the bar or bartender. Out of all the patrons he/she serves that night, how can the bartender predict which ones will become violent?

Personally, I consider a drunken assault equal to a sober assault, only the attacker is a little slower. There is a darn good chance that during our struggle, he will sustain damage that lasts much longer than his intoxication. If enough intended victims would beat the shiite out of a drunken attacker, and inflict permanent damage, drunks might still get drunk, but he would be unable to pick a fight when drunk.

JMHO.

Parker

 

[308win]

He can't but that doesn't absolve him from the responsibility of cutting off anyone who is becoming impaired; if he doesn't he is liable. That is why they carry dramshop coverage that they will lose if they have bad claims experience.

Personnally, I prefer punish the drunk and the place that served him after it was obvious he was getting drunk. Why should others be expected to bear the costs of irresponsible drinkers - or gun owners, drivers, etc. for that matter?

 

[mgkdrgn]

How is this any different from trying to sue a gun dealer when a criminal commits armed robbery with a gun he sold?

Because the criminal didn't come in with his mask on and booty bag slung over his shoulder and ask "Hey, can you sell me a gun quick, I'm late for a robbery."

The drunk, on the ohter hand, staggers up to the bar, slaps some money on the counter top, slurs out "gimme a beer", and the bartender, knowing the guy is already drunk, serves him.

THAT is the difference.

 

[catspa]

Except that it's not a crime to be drunk. It's not even a crime to drink yourself to death. If we are going to hold the bartender or bar owner responsible for the drunk's actions, we should hold the liquor store responsible if he buys a bottle there. (The state of WA holds the exclusive power to sell liquor, and I don't think they're liable at all.)

Parker

 

[308win]

Wrong. I don't know about the upper left corner but in Ohio is it against the law to operate any type of vehicle including a bicycle while impaired; it is against the law to carry while impaired; there are a lot of activities it is against the law to engage in while impaired.

 

[fedlaw]

Dallas Jack has it exactly right. When I was 12, our family was out for dinner at a nice restaurant. While waiting for our car, a drunk started to attack my Mom. My Dad, 6'4" former Army MP and expert in hand-to-hand, pulled the drunk (same size as my Dad) off of my Mom, put him face down on the pavement and kept him there until the cops arrived. Later when we talked about it, I asked him why he did not beat the drunk to a bloody pulp.
He told me drunks and people who are high do not feel pain. He said you can control them or kill them, but never get into a fight with them.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Either way, they are out of the fight. Now, at this point, your options are leaving, holding them for the cops, or putting the boot

Stomping on a stopped threat is a good way to go to jail.

 

[catspa]

308win, that's exactly my point. Engaging in those activities while drunk is the offense, not the condition of being drunk itself. The bartender might serve many patrons a night, but the activities they do or don't engage in afterward are entirely beyond his control.

How can a bartender possibly know which patrons are going to commit a crime of drunkenness? Should he breathalyze them to decide if he gives them another drink? That's the only way I can see for him to cover his a$$. I wouldn't work in a job where the pay was that low and the risk that great.

If the same patron, refused by our hypothetical bartender, goes to a liquor store and buys enough booze to pickle his brain, the state holds itself harmless for his offenses, which seems to me like a double standard.

The bottom line, to my way of thinking, is this: what element of the condition of drunkenness is sufficient to waive the presumption of responsibility that we assign to people when they're sober? That, and my belief that suing bars will make attorneys richer and drinks cost more, and not put a scratch on drunks getting drunk and doing stupid stuff.

Parker

 

[Cannonball888]

the only one I sort of know, is a stout 'chop' to the side or back of the Neck.

I see all those episodes of The Avengers really paid off.

 

[DammitBoy]

The bar I work in as a bouncer has a policy of cutting off anybody who is obviously drunk to the point of being impaired. This judgement call is usually made by the bouncers as we are watching the crowd while bartenders are just trying to keep up with drink orders.

Holding bartenders accountable is total bullcrap. Drunks find a way to get more drinks.

They steal other people's drinks, they have someone else buy them a drink, they have a flask or more booze in their vehicle. You can't control stupid.

If we eject a drunk, we offer to call them a taxi, we offer them a free hotel room, and we ask them not to drive. This does not stop idiots from leaving the bar and driving anyway.

A person is responsible for their own actions, end of story.

 

[Mokwepa]

Drunk people aren't hard to beat up (in my experience), but they can be hard to stop and can be dangerous.

I agree. Im not proud of this but ive had my experiance.

Caught a drunk bloke harasing and trying to kiss my wife. I put him down instantly, he got back up and came again. I put him down again and he got back up. This continued for a while untill i backed off. I could not keep him down and every time i nocked him down, he got more and more angry. I was ether going to have to shoot him or hit him with a pipe, both of which would have been very unnecessary and fatal. I turned arround and walked away before i got out of hand and in jail. Drunk blokes fall easily but dont stay down for long, and when they do get up, watch out.

 

[Cannonball888]

 

[onlymeself]

My mom was a bartender in a pretty rough bar for years. She's 5'3" 110 lbs. If she had to kick someone out (86 them) they knew they would never be allowed in again and that cured most drunks. If she could see a fight going to happen, ei mean drunk working up his courage, she would agree with him and offer him a drink. If someone was just too drunk and need to go home she would buy them one more drink before they left. Trust me that last drink stopped a lot of fights and got a lot of guys home that didn't want to go home. Of course that last drink had 2 drops of murine eye drops in it. Murine in a drink will give you severe abdominal cramps, and about 10 minutes later you're camping on the toilet. Most people don't like to have the screaming ....er poops in public and they will go home. Most think it's the whiskey s****. It doesn't do any harm, probably would if you got carried away with how many drops, but it is effective.
One time my aunts boyfriend was drunk at my grandma's house causing trouble. Grandma wanted to confront him with her 25 beretta. Mom said no, got her murine out of her purse 2 drops in his drink and 10 minutes later he left holding his belly with a real distressed look on his face.
Not going to work for the guy pounding on your door, but will work in certain circumstances.