Debate over "birthright citizenship"

[Camp David]

Are you folks planning internment camps for the children of undesireables?

Excellent point pax!

I would be against any change in the birthright law, of any kind. A child is born where he/she is born and is a citizen thereof by natural law.

That said, I am in favor of tightening up immigration access and control procedures. Proactive measures of the latter will reduce need for effort on the former.

 

[Herself]

+1, Pax. It's a poor "solution" that creates an even worse problem. And the stateless would have nothing at all to lose.

--Herself

 

[bg]

You make valid points Pax. However we MUST start somewhere
to decrease the flow of illegals into this country. Myself I don't have
a problem with those who come here and at least start the paperwork
to stay here legally. It's those who WON'T try to go through the
process of either obtaining a LEGAL green card, not the one you
can buy on the street corner down in L.A, or citizenship status
that has I as well as millions more upset. To NOT try to work
with the laws we have here regarding immigration is a direct
slap to the very core of our Nation. We are a land of laws, yet
illegals spit on by not going through the process..

Simply, those who come here illegally should not be allowed the
same rights, benefits, etc as those who DO come here trying to do
the right thing. Your point about sending further gens back to a country
that they weren't born in is also head on. How to fix it ? Deny THEM
any holdings or assets as well until those assets savings etc, are used for
proper documentation. Doesn't matter how much it takes. Fact is it
should be on the family to investigate this. It would all be so much simpler
if illegals DID do the right thing and reg.

If they want to come here to better themselves, then they have
to play by the rules/laws as they are written. If found to be here
illegally the Gov should attach any holdings, assets, etc.

We HAVE to get this handled. It's out of control. These are my
suggestions sad as they are..I'll gladly listen to any other
solutions, except those of La Raza and like orgs.

 

[pax]

Your point about sending further gens back to a country
that they weren't born in is also head on. How to fix it ? Deny THEM
any holdings or assets as well.

I had a hard time following your logic, but it sounds as though your contention is that the problems created by illegal immigration would be solved if we just create a permanent underclass of people who are prohibited by law from owning anything and can therefore never legally acquire the means to go anywhere else.

Somehow, I don't think that will help.

pax

 

[P95Carry]

Without getting into the depths of the thread prime subject I will just say this ....

I spent something like 5 years, going thru INS hoops and hurdles - including time and significant cost. Initially to get my green card - which then was reappraised to give me unconditional status. Time and cost all the way.

Last September - finally - my citizenship was complete. I was more relieved that just ecstatic. The end of a long road. But I do feel proud to be an American and pay my way.

Because I went ''the right way'' I do inevitably feel quite profound angst toward illegals, in particular when they are the criminal types or simply parasitic.

Unfortunately the logic purported by Pax is pretty inescapable - offspring of illegals almost by default have to be regarded as citizens but - it sure sticks in my gullet, that the illegals were here in first place!

 

[Biker]

I repeat; Guard our borders and enforce existing immigration laws and the problem becomes miniscule.
Biker

 

[longeyes]

The kids would not have citizenship and they'd be ousted along with their parents. They have a country to go back to: Mexico (primarily). Why are we playing games with Mexico?

There are, by the way, far worse things than a "permanent underclass." One would be losing your nation and the rule of law. This is one more instance of faux compassion leading to self-destruction. If you don't have the spine to deal with the lawless, expect to be overwhelmed. Just don't plan on taking me with you.

 

[longeyes]

Okay, so let's just pretend this goes through. Babies born to illegals are themselves illegal.

Will that force the illegals out of the country? Nope. They'll still be here. Millions of illegals live in this country and there's no reason to believe they'll just vanish when this goes through.

This isn't about "logic," it's about spine. Those who keep repeating that there's nothing we can do to expel people who by law shouldn't be here are themselves part of the problem. If you think there's no answer, there isn't--for you. Prepare to see your country overwhelmed because you are afraid to do what it takes to defend it.

 

[Camp David]

This isn't about "logic," it's about spine. Those who keep repeating that there's nothing we can do to expel people who by law shouldn't be here are themselves part of the problem. If you think there's no answer, there isn't--for you. Prepare to see your country overwhelmed because you are afraid to do what it takes to defend it.

longeyes... you can't punish the children for mistakes by the adults, in my opinion. Regardless of whether or not one has spine, not granting citizenship to children born in our nation makes this nation a hypocrite. Like abortion, one cannot punish a child for mistakes made by adults, so too birthright citizenship! If illegals have a child while in this nation, that birth makes child a citizen.... denying such makes us as bad as them...

Yes, we need to move against illegal aliens. Put up a proper barrier, evict illegal aliens, punish companies that hire illegals. Even move our National Guard to border. Yes to all. But punish a child for being born? Sorry...no.

 

[longeyes]

Sending a child, with parents, back to the his/her country of origin is not "punishing the child." There is more to a happy childhood than being an American citizen. This is, in my view, dangerous sentimentality; it's not about punishing a child or rewarding a child, it's about something more important than either: honoring the law and respecting one's own culture. If you want more of something, subsidize it, goes the saying. Want more illegal alien problems? Give them goodies, make their offspring citizens with all the rights and privileges emanating therefrom. The 14th Amendment was designed to protect those brought here against their will and exploited; applying it to illegal aliens and their children turns that upside-down: they are coming against OUR will and exploiting US.

The inability to deal firmly with illegal immigration is a sign of the kind of decadence we decry in the Europeans, a case of "moral sophistication" triumphing over common sense and a desire to survive.

 

[Camp David]

Sending a child, with parents, back to the his/her country of origin is not "punishing the child."

His/Her country of origin is the United States if he/she was born here!!!!! Which nation would you presume it would be?

Different sets of standards apply, for illegal aliens versus those children born to them while domecile.

Curious which nation you would enter on their Birth Certificate? Should we lie?

 

[pax]

This isn't about "logic," it's about spine.

Well, I'm glad you are willing to admit that your position is illogical and that you are thinking only with your emotions. It makes it a lot easier.

Nowhere have I said that the illegal immigrant problem is unsolvable. I've only given one of many logical reasons why this isn't the solution.

pax

Half our mistakes in life arise from feeling where we ought to think, and thinking where we ought to feel. -- John Churton Collins

 

[Herself]

The kids would not have citizenship and they'd be ousted along with their parents. They have a country to go back to: Mexico (primarily). Why are we playing games with Mexico?

The example cited several generations, but I'll bite: Because it takes two to tango! Mexico is not obliged to go along with the U.S.'s theories about those children born in the U.S. to Mexican nationals having Mexican citizenship. You could just shoot the babies at the border, perhaps? Or do as the Greeks once did, and simply set them out to die? Willing to take your turn as executioner?

There are, by the way, far worse things than a "permanent underclass." One would be losing your nation and the rule of law.

And a permant underclass wouldn't lead pretty much directly to that? How not? Are you advocating a return to sefdom? Peonage?

This is one more instance of faux compassion leading to self-destruction. If you don't have the spine to deal with the lawless, expect to be overwhelmed. Just don't plan on taking me with you.

The lawless are best dealt with one at a time, in the act of commiting or attempting to commit lawless acts against individuals, at which point one apprehends and detains them, or, if they are unwilling to stop, one shoots them. Politely but firmly. In an armed society, it's just about self-correcting.

Don't dare call me "compassionate," faux or not. No, call me lazy. Dead babies are messy and embarrassing; I don't want to have to explain them to my nieces and nephews. Dead criminals, not so much and easier to account for.

--Herself

 

[geekWithA.45]

Laying aside illegal immigration for the moment, it seems to me that people generally don't value what they get for free.


The INS agent who admited my adopted daughters to the US thought that a green card was (and I quote) "just as good as citizenship, except you can't vote {shrug}", seemed to feel likewise.

Sidebar:

Wierd bits about bringing in adopted kids from overseas: The child protection act of 2000 confers US citizenship to the kids immediately upon lawful admittance, which is to say, as of the moment the admitted stamp goes into the kid's foreign passport. Based on that, we obtained US passports for them shortly thereafter, to document their citizenship status. THEN we got green cards in the mail from Homeland Security, certifying them as permanent resident aliens. (No big deal, they had simply crossed in the mail) Then we domestically re-adopted the kids (which generates a US birth certificate, since the original foriegn documents are impossible to get duplicates of, for all intents and purposes), and THEN we filed a different form to FURTHER document their citizen status.

Why go through all that trouble, when the green card came "for free", with no further effort expended?

One: Despite the statement of the ignoramous INS agent, citizenship COUNTS.

Second: Anecdotal horror stories have been heard concerning adopted citizen kids getting caught up in some sort of juvenile police involvement, which then initiated DEPORTATION PROCEEDINGS, which would have been headed off at the pass had the parents done their duty and gotten their kids the documents they'll need through their lives.

Go figure.

 

[wolf]

i understand longeyes point...and agree...we are fools to grant citizenship to "anchor babies"..the amendment should read...born to citizens...the way it is now..the baby rules... it brings mom & dad..sisters..brothers..aunts..uncles and all related to the aforementioned to the US to take part in the "birth process" .. unfortunetly..most don't leave..and you have a huge population increase in towns & cities that are overwhelemed..the closing of hospitals that cant afford to be the third worlds birthing center and emergency rooms as primary health care for when the "new citizen" gets a cold..and lets build additional schools as fast as we can..and run an educational budget beyond function..

if you don't live in a city/town that has been destroyed or in the path of being destroyed by the mass illegal influx...you may not have the appreciation for my point of view (longeyes and others also)..then there are many that don't see any reason for borders or national sovereignty at all..and think/feel that all third world nations should be allowed to come here for a better life..whatever the cost..the question that i ask to those folks is..do you have doors on your house/home..

wolf

 

[shecky]

you have much to learn about ILlegal aliens..first.they are criminals and they are not immigrants...immigrants WANT to become US citizens..not just take our money and run...

First of all, crimes not against person or property probably shouldn't be crimes.

Second, what's wrong wanting to "just take our money and run"? Illegal immigrants may be better capitalists than many Americans, filling existing needs for cheap and flexible labor.

should you visit los angeles or any border town/city and don't see any problems..contact your vision professional ASAP...

I live in Los Angeles. I see a vibrant and diversified economy for just about anyone that's willing to work. Doesn't seem any worse than any other big city.

 

[shecky]

You make valid points Pax. However we MUST start somewhere
to decrease the flow of illegals into this country.

I have to ask this simple question: Why?

Illegal immigrants are in the US because the US wants them. It's the same with drugs. Simply declaring them illegal doesn't make the demand vanish. I suspect a War on Illegal Immigration will be about as successful as the war on drugs.

While I can understand someone like P95Carry being resentful about illegal immigrants, it should be understood that the problem is with the government's bureaucracy and not with the illegal immigrants themselves. They didn't create the endless hoops to jump or paperwork.

 

[gc70]

Birthright citizenship is one of many factors that promote illegal entry into the US. Any way you want to look at it, giving American-born children of illegal aliens rights and benefits is an inducement to illegal entry. Birthright citizenship would not be a big problem if there were not vast hordes of illegals in the country. Since we are already past that point, birthright citizenship is a valid issue to consider in trying to control illegal entry.

Dealing with birthright citizenship will not be a panacea to solve illegal entry, any more than dealing with any other single contributory factor would be. We will continue to have huge problems with illegal entry until be deal with all of the major inducements.

How about enforcing labor laws? Yes, eliminate the demand for illegal aliens.
How about cutting off benefits? Yes, don't reward illegal aliens for being here.
How about building a wall or a fence? Yes, reduce the ease of casual entry.

BTW, I like BG's solution to pax's question about multi-generational illegals. We already use asset confiscation to prevent criminals from benefiting from their crimes, so extending the concept to illegal aliens is not a big leap. But more than simply confiscating the assets of illegal aliens, BG offers the pragmatic solution of using the confiscated assets t o pay the costs for the illegals to actually go through the process to become legal immigrants.

 

[bg]

I had a hard time following your logic, but it sounds as though your contention is that the problems created by illegal immigration would be solved if we just create a permanent underclass of people who are prohibited by law from owning anything and can therefore never legally acquire the means to go anywhere else.

Somehow, I don't think that will help.

pax

I admit I have a hard time explaining myself many times.
I mean to use something like this idea not to deny but to make it
very clear that this is one of many options the Gov could use
to get people who are here illegally to at least start the process to
either obtain legal status or in the above member's case become a
citizen. I can totally understand his feelings as he did it by the book
and finally obtained citizenship. I too admit from stories I've
read and heard about, if there was a better way to streamline
the process that would have to be the priority.

I don't want to create a different class of people.
I want to see people make it here. But if coming here under illegal
means and abusing the system is just fine with them, then if/when
the Law comes down on them it's a BIG hurt. If not, what's the
sense of having law ?

I simply want those who come to this land to play by the laws
that you, I and most all play by. Illegal infestation is a health
hazard, a drain on the economy and in the end, dangerous.

Heck the kids are born here, grow up here knowing their folks
broke the law coming here illegally. Not all but most do. Since
it seems "ok" for their people to break the law, why should they
obey it in any form..?

All one has to do is look at L.A to see what kind of mess it's
turned out to be. I don't have the answer in stopping it, but
as stated I'm open to any solutions.

 

[alan]

Today's Pittsburgh Post-Gazette carried an article on this subject. Could get "interesting".

 

[Nationalist]

I agree you are the nationality of your parents no matter where you are born period. I am sick of those illegal immagrants droping their anchor babys here. That law needs to be changed.

 

[longeyes]

Illegal immigrants are in the US because the US wants them. It's the same with drugs. Simply declaring them illegal doesn't make the demand vanish. I suspect a War on Illegal Immigration will be about as successful as the war on drugs.

The "US" doesn't want illegals. A small stratum of axe-grinders wants the invasion.

 

[shecky]

The "US" doesn't want illegals. A small stratum of axe-grinders wants the invasion.

Of course the US wants illegal immigrants. It wants a cheap and flexible labor pool to help fuel the economy. America votes with it's dollars, the kind of vote that really counts.

All one has to do is look at L.A to see what kind of mess it's turned out to be. I don't have the answer in stopping it, but as stated I'm open to any solutions.

Exactly what kind of mess has L.A. turned out to be that's any different from other large cities?

Dealing with birthright citizenship will not be a panacea to solve illegal entry, any more than dealing with any other single contributory factor would be. We will continue to have huge problems with illegal entry until be deal with all of the major inducements.

How about enforcing labor laws? Yes, eliminate the demand for illegal aliens.
How about cutting off benefits? Yes, don't reward illegal aliens for being here.
How about building a wall or a fence? Yes, reduce the ease of casual entry.

Eliminating birthright citizenship won't likely do anything about illegal entry, because the demand for a low wage labor pool won't change.

Enforcing labor laws won't eliminate the demand for illegal aliens any more than enforcing drug laws eliminates drug abuse. Remember that most rudimentary of economic lessons: supply and demand.

Any government action to truly eliminate illegal immigration would be a HUGE growth of government of the intrusive kind (how else do we ensure all employed persons are who they say they are), a corresponding huge tax burden (to pay for all those new government workers and border fence patrol), and higher costs for nearly everything, as the low wage labor pool is eliminated and replaced by all above-the-board labor, which we may need to import from Mexico anyway (remember the US low unemployment rate?), only this time at government regulated wages, with corresponding government regulations imposed on employers (tax records, workers comp, etc.).

 

[bg]

Exactly what kind of mess has L.A. turned out to be that's any different from other large cities?

Well I'm not in other cities. In fact I'm not even in L.A, but I'm not
far from it and it does have a major problem with illegal immigration.
But your right. I shouldn't limit it to just L.A...
Here are just a few samples.
http://usinfo.state.gov/eap/east_as...n_smuggling/smuggling_in_the_press/crime.html
http://www.ice.gov/graphics/news/newsreleases/articles/050823losangeles.htm
http://www.ice.gov/graphics/news/newsreleases/index.htm

 

[longeyes]

Of course the US wants illegal immigrants. It wants a cheap and flexible labor pool to help fuel the economy. America votes with it's dollars, the kind of vote that really counts.

You're generalizing, amigo. A slice of this country wants them. A much bigger chunk of America doesn't. Fact is, Americans haven't really been given a "vote" on this issue. Yet. That will change.

Any government action to truly eliminate illegal immigration would be a HUGE growth of government of the intrusive kind (how else do we ensure all employed persons are who they say they are), a corresponding huge tax burden (to pay for all those new government workers and border fence patrol), and higher costs for nearly everything, as the low wage labor pool is eliminated and replaced by all above-the-board labor, which we may need to import from Mexico anyway (remember the US low unemployment rate?), only this time at government regulated wages, with corresponding government regulations imposed on employers (tax records, workers comp, etc.).

I guess it's not dawned on you that illegal immigration has already spawned a huge growth of government, the vast industry of bureaucratic parasites who in various ways use taxpayers' money to service the illegal alien "customer." Illegal immigration is already costing state governments a mighty bundle in the billions, and we can expect providing health care for the "uninsured," a euphemism for illegal aliens, to further enlarge the scope of government if the lobbyists and burrocrats get their way.