Deconstructing the logic of gun control

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jon_in_wv said:
The only gun laws that prevent crime are the ones that prevent the government from infringing on the rights of law abiding citizens to protect themselves and to deter criminals. The first one that comes to mind is the 2nd Amendment. Any other law is a misguided attempt at best, and at worst a nefarious attempt to disarm everyone.

Completely agree . There should be no gun control laws. Get on a plane, walk into a courthouse, a police station,etc. being able to be armed. Every gun control law is a negative and advances negatives. Every single one advances nothing towards keeping the peace. On the contrary.

Alaska,Arizona, Vermont and Wyoming so far, are doing their darnest to bring us back to freedom.
 
Their point, apparently is that "guns are dangerous to children and other living things. Guns KILL. Everything else is survivable."

The answer I usually get is, "Yes, they would have a better chance at surviving."

...

The point of shooting someone with a gun is for them not to survive and prevail at threatening or taking life.

As for the "survivability" of anything else, that's poppycock. Anything that can make you bleed faster than you can produce more blood will kill you. Same for poison, strangulation, drowning, etc., etc.

Woody
 
"Their point, apparently is that "guns are dangerous to children and other living things. Guns KILL. Everything else is survivable."

The answer I usually get is, "Yes, they would have a better chance at surviving."

This is a core belief and you can't successfuly attack a core belief. You have to find the reason they believe it so strongly. Usually, it is some level of non-violence or pacifism that causes them to see guns as capable of producing more violence that anything. Guns are loud, destrucitive and operated at a distance. Bombs are generally ignored."

Bombs are also generally a non-issue, so basing general policy around them is IMO misguided ;). You are absolutely right about needing to understand --and respect, people-- the core beliefs of your opposition. You can't change it, and you can't steam-roll these people with your numbers, so you gotta learn to work with them, or around them. The core belief of most of these has got to be that it is impossible/improbable that individuals can defend themselves, or need to defend themselves (the former stems from personal helplessness, the latter wishful thinking, or more disturbingly, self-hatred). I don't say that either is due to ignorance of people defending themselves, the proof of that is self evident. This is a fundamental belief; that people cannot or should not be trusted to defend their own lives, or that only certain people cannot be. It's as basic as 'murder is wrong' and is quite possibly genetically derived (look up the recent scientific studies of partisan brain patterns). Even if you present a perfect argument, it will be filtered and distorted by them internally by dissonance. The only way to get them over their natural mode of thinking is to give them a reason to work against it.

I was once against possession of handguns in my youth; I didn't understand the fascination either side had on rifles, since mass-produced handguns were causing all the carnage, after all. I eventually purchased a rifle and handgun, convinced that every person should at least know how to shoot a gun, just like everyone should know how to drive stick. I very quickly realized that my preoccupation with handguns was just lazy thinking, which is how every anti arrives at their misguided conclusions. It was confusion of cause and result; because one of them was identifiable (the hand gun) by brain keyed in on it being the part of the equation requiring modification. Humans naturally look for patterns, so when someone sees a very common element to problem --people killed with guns-- and it is readily quantized ('people' is difficult to pin down, 'guns' is not) they will hone in on it. It's a very effective way of solving person-level garden variety problems without wasting time, which is why we evolved to think this way, but it isn't the same as true logic (or 'game theory' which is basically logic applied to social interaction)

As an engineer, I very readily understood both how similar all firearms were, and how simple of machines they were; barely higher on the register of 'human creation' than knives. That is what convinced me that such a basic --and therefore inherently endemic-- part of modern man could not be the problem, which left only the man and his motivations in the "people killed by guns" problem. I found that attempts to focus on the human element tended to be more effective than those focusing only on his means to action ('enslavement' to be blunt) and that a good chunk of the reason crime-ridden areas were so bad was because they'd been effectively walled-off like the Thunderdome by the fearful crime-free areas. When you remove all the 'fair players' from a game, cheating prevails, and any fair players brave enough to enter are at a tremendous disadvantage.

But to return to my point, the only reason I came to this conclusion, was because I went out to buy a gun and get into the hobby (I'd shot before, so I at least knew it was fun, but the defense aspect was totally foreign to a softie-suburbanite like myself). If I were just some guy reacting to stuff I was told, my thoughts would doubtless key in on the 'gun' as the problem element, and demand 'the people in charge take care of it by whatever means they feel is necessary' (also lazy thinking ;) ).

If I don't think about it much, it is very easy to take comfort in statistics and pretend violence won't visit me personally. But if I do, I realize that it only won't visit me until it does, and that the stakes are high enough that modest provisions against it are small potatoes (especially since mastering those provisions happens to be fun :) ). If I truly thought I would do nothing but wilt when attacked, and am so reckless I would be doomed to harm another through carelessness, I would likely see myself as unfit for a firearm. If I felt "normal" I would project those characteristics onto society and general and deem them unfit for firearms. Except for those police officers in snappy uniforms so-much-braver-than-I, of course ;)

Now that I have thought about the topic a great deal, and heard arguments from both sides, and thought about it some more... then heard more arguments and taken notice which ones I can pick apart more thoroughly, I have come to realize guns are a necessary part of human interaction; the infinite consequence for the most intolerable behavior. I refrain from the phrase "necessary evil" because felling someone who has broken the most fundamental laws of society to the extent they require immediate and permanent action to prevent additional harm, seems to be about the most noble affirmation of humanity there is. It is terrible that one person, any person, must bear the burden of using violence on another let alone actually killing them, but it is far worse for both them and others if they do not. If you accept that man has killed man since the beginning, and shows no signs of stopping, guns can have a place in your world view. If you subscribe to the latest hubristic philosophy destined for the trash bin, you may believe that we have finally evolved beyond something so fundamental and can leave the weapons behind us.

TCB
 
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barnbwt said:
Now that I have thought about the topic a great deal, and heard arguments from both sides, and thought about it some more... then heard more arguments and taken notice which ones I can pick apart more thoroughly, I have come to realize guns are a necessary part of human interaction; the infinite consequence for the most intolerable behavior. I refrain from the phrase "necessary evil" because felling someone who has broken the most fundamental laws of society to the extent they require immediate and permanent action to prevent additional harm, seems to be about the most noble affirmation of humanity there is. It is terrible that one person, any person, must bear the burden of using violence on another let alone actually killing them, but it is far worse for both them and others if they do not. If you accept that man has killed man since the beginning, and shows no signs of stopping, guns can have a place in your world view. If you subscribe to the latest hubristic philosophy destined for the trash bin, you may believe that we have finally evolved beyond something so fundamental and can leave the weapons behind us.

You are getting there! One step at a time. It took me 27 years til age 47.
 
I run across the "need" argument all the time. I'm told I don't "need" an AR-15. Well....I don't "need" a lot of things. But it is my right to own it and I want to. My problem is that the "need" argument could never stop. Is someone going to tell me I don't "need" my bike because its "too powerful" or "too dangerous", and I can get by with just a "normal" bike? Might be different, but the point is the same. Saying someone shouldn't have something because they don't "need" it is basically overstepping. Most people don't "need" the majority of the things they have, but that's irrelevant. When you allow anybody (especially a government) the right to tell you what you "need," in any area of life, it will just never stop.

I actually want to understand their logic, because I want to be able to completely see their side. But most of the time I can't. Most of their arguments are completely illogical, and based more on emotion and ignorance than facts.

They always advocate that they are arguing for "common sense" laws. But to be completely literal, ANY gun control law is unconstitutional. The Second Amendment says that the right "shall not be infringed." Any law aimed at gun control is an infringement in one way or another, no matter how small of an infringement it is. Just once, I'd like to see someone actually prove to me that one of these infringements actually achieved its goal of reducing crime.
 
^Read the thread . You are intelligent, Do I have to spell out the names? Please, you are too intelligent to be oblivious. Read their many past posts.

Shall not be infringed means exactly what it says. Simplicity itself. Monotonous!!

I know Pizzapinochle was talking about it, but I haven't been following very closely. I was just hoping someone might bring me up to speed without having to crawl through 3 or 4 pages.
 
The problem with this question is that for most antis, the answer is easy: Any law that reduces the number of guns reduces the potential for gun violence and is progress (and for progressives, progress is important). They consider conflating gun violence with other forms of violence to be a strawman argument. They want to focus on reducing or eliminating gun violence. Other forms of violence can wait.

The problem is to historically demonstrate to them that it was the advent of personal firearms which ultimately gave the common man the power to defend himself and place himself on an equal footing with those more powerful than he.

Before then, power belonged to the larger and stronger, period. All personal weapons, even bows, were subject to the strength of the person wielding them. And weapons which were not "personal" were essentially privy only to those in power who commanded the troops who could use them.

When the personal firearm finally made its appearance, the common man now had a weapon which actually put him on an equal footing with those who were larger/stronger, in terms of capability.

This was the point in history where the common man really started throwing off the yokes of bondage to those who were more powerful and began to successfully demand equality and justice under law for all, and not just a lobsided domination by the powerful.
 
The problem with this question is that for most antis, the answer is easy: Any law that reduces the number of guns reduces the potential for gun violence and is progress (and for progressives, progress is important). They consider conflating gun violence with other forms of violence to be a strawman argument. They want to focus on reducing or eliminating gun violence. Other forms of violence can wait.

Exactly.

If the government outlawed yellow automobiles then the accidental death rate from car wrecks involving yellow cars would plummet. Sounds good….right? Does anyone really think the roads would be any safer?
 
The problem is to historically demonstrate to them that it was the advent of personal firearms which ultimately gave the common man the power to defend himself and place himself on an equal footing with those more powerful than he.

"God created men, but Sam Colt made 'em equal." ;)
 
Exactly.

If the government outlawed yellow automobiles then the accidental death rate from car wrecks involving yellow cars would plummet. Sounds good….right? Does anyone really think the roads would be any safer?
They would be safer from the danger of being hit by a yellow car. Next, work on reducing the danger or red cars, then blue cars, then green cars... :banghead: To them, it is progress, and Progressives like progress.
 
Why do you need a computer? Terrorists use computers to organize bombings.
Why do you need a cell phone? Only the police and military need the ability to organize and communicate quickly.
Why do you need a megaphone? Bad guys could use them to incite riots.
Why do you need pens, paper, paint, ect.? Ideas can be dangerous.
Why do you need cameras? Don't you know child molesters use them to record rape?
 
I think it can be helpful to examine the assumptions and logic behind anti-gun arguments so we can respond to them by refuting the worldview behind them, rather than countering with our own slogans.

For instance, "You don't need xyz gun". What assumptions are behind this saying? What line do we draw need vs. not, and what criteria do they decide what someone does or doesn't "need" something?

The assumption is that said gun is unnecessary/excessive for a civilian to own.

They may say it's a military rifle, or it's too powerful of a round for any civilian need. Or, that the Constitution was written when those kinds of weapons couldn't be imagined.

It's easy enough to explain my stance on these.

Military rifle, yes, the design has been used by the military. However, the gun's appearance is irrelevant, its function is the same as any other - to fire bullets. As for power, the AR-15 as well as many other rifles are chambered for far more powerful bullets. There is nothing magical or extra deadly about a 223.

The last point, that these weapons couldn't be imagined, is easy enough to refute as well.

When the 2nd amendment was crafted, it was to prevent the government from infringing on rights of self defense and the defense of the state against a tyrannical government, and at the time the weapon "of the day" was the flintlock musket, and cannon. Muskets and cannons were both military weapons, as well as private weapons - equal footing roughly between civilian and military arms. That equality has actually somewhat deviated in favor of the government vs the civilian, since they have effectively removed the ease of purchasing full auto firearms. However, civilians can still own the same style of long arm issued to soldiers.

Also, regarding how deadly an AR-15 (or other modern firearm) might be, a musket ball was far worse. Those are nasty little things. Actually, big things! 50 caliber or greater, for some!

Ultimately, gun ownership isn't a question of need. It is the right of Americans to keep and bear arms granted by our Creator. And the 2nd Amendment is in place to help prevent infringement on that right.

I do feel there are sensible "infringements" on what arms we can keep and bear, for example rocket launchers and grenades, explosives, nuclear arms, etc. But to then stretch that infringement to a model of a rifle is just illogical.

In my opinion, what a rifle looks like doesn't really matter. Then again, the crazies sure do like using it to commit atrocities...which boggles my mind.
 
I do feel there are sensible "infringements" on what arms we can keep and bear, for example rocket launchers and grenades, explosives, nuclear arms, etc. But to then stretch that infringement to a model of a rifle is just illogical.

Now, sometimes people like to make strawmen and say "Then should we allow rocket launchers? Should anyone be allowed to own (insert catoonish, illogical device)?"

Here's the quandary. We rely on the principle that the problem with weapons is not weaponry, but rather the person using them.

Historically, some wealthier colonists owned their own cannons, and contributed these private cannons to the continental army and navy. And anyone can still own a black powder cannon with no paperwork.

Further, legally, you can own a tank or whatever so long as you fill out the NFA paperwork and register them as a destructive device. You can have a tank if you can afford one, but you'll have a difficult time finding a place to shoot it.

Clearly, there is a societal danger in allowing indirect fire things like mortars. By what principle do we articulate this?

P.S.

The claim that today's firearms couldn't be imagined when the Constitution was written is not supported by history. Ben Franklin among others was an inventor, and they had witnessed firearm evolution within their own lifetimes. Repeating weapons were already in the prototype stage.

Have you ever heard of the Belton Flintlock? It was a repeating flintlock rifle that was demonstrated to the Continental Congress, but rejected for being too expensive.
 
Then again, the crazies sure do like using it to commit atrocities...which boggles my mind.

That should be the easiest to figure out. These atrocities are really just acts of terror. Rarely are the victims of these acts of terror the real target. It is society that is the target, and the "assault weapon" seems to instill the most fear in much of society.
 
I haven't read through the whole thread, but I think the OP has a good point. Whenever I am in a discussion/argument/debate with someone on anything for which they feel passionate (guns, politics, abortion, etc.), I need to first understand their end goals. After that, and after determining if their end goal is somewhat inline with mine, then we can have a discussion about how to reach that goal. If we cannot come to the conclusion that our end desires are the same, there is no reason to talk about the topic.

For example, here are some things I need to establish with an anti-gun person before we can have a debate...
1. We both value life and happiness.
2. We both value freedom, and freedom of good people from oppression.
3. Laws set up penalties for an action. Laws do not prevent said action from ever happening.
4. etc.
Now, we can at least go on with out conversation, knowing that each one of us has the best intentions for happy, free people. If we cannot find this basic common ground, we have no reason to talk. In the end, some people believe that the population should not really be free, as you or I might define it.

I also think it is important to listen and understand the other person's fears, disagreements, solutions, frustrations, etc. By understanding their fears, repeating their words back to them, and then asking questions, you might be able to draw some analogies regarding safety.
 
The whole argument that anti's use about how the founders could not grasp the 'march of technology' is silly. They were dealing with the concepts needed to maintain liberty, not the specific tools.

They didn't specify the method that will be used to maintain free speech (IE, printing presses only, or pen and paper), but simply that the concept of freedom of speech be maintained. They may have used the words 'speech' and 'press', but that didn't mean only face to face talking and printing presses, or pen and paper, as is evidenced by the fact that we are using computers and the internet to discuss this very thing.

The same applies to arms. They didn't specify which arms. Because they knew things would change with the march of time. Someone mentioned above that they were inventors. For sure! Those were some extremely smart individuals. I'd love to see some of the founders back then match wits with some of the politicians today. It'd be great, yet probably a little sad.

Anyway, the point: Here is another weapon that was in existence at the time that was far more capable than a musket:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girandoni_Air_Rifle

This air rifle had the approximate power of the .45 acp, and could fire 20 rounds in approximately 30 seconds.

Saying the 2A only applied to weapons of the era is not logical. It's a conceptual thing, not a technical treaty.
 
Again, very easy to assign wildly incorrect views to someone then say how wrong they are. You are setting up straw men and knocking them down, which plays really well here among the choir but will do nothing toward the actual question at the beginning f this thread, which asks for logic.

I've never seen anyone who thinks a gun ban will spontaneously cause all guns to disappear from criminal circulation. Their goal is to make it much more difficult to obtain a gun and significantly reduce the number of guns in criminal circulation over time.
Look at the quote by Feinstein. She said " once the criminals see that no one else has guns they will just drop theirs and not use them anymore". The gun control guise is them not wanting any guns whatsoever. Period. If you don't believe that then you are a fool.
 
Look at the quote by Feinstein. She said " once the criminals see that no one else has guns they will just drop theirs and not use them anymore". The gun control guise is them not wanting any guns whatsoever. Period. If you don't believe that then you are a fool.
Some young punks in the same institution as the murderers of Michael Jackson's father said Michael Jackson was responsible for his father's murder -- "If he hadn't a give him all that money, they wouldn't have had to rob him."

Feinstein's logic is cut out of the same sociopathic cloth. She makes excuses for violent criminals.
 
Look at the quote by Feinstein. She said " once the criminals see that no one else has guns they will just drop theirs and not use them anymore". The gun control guise is them not wanting any guns whatsoever. Period. If you don't believe that then you are a fool.
That quote was satire attributed to the senator during the Dorner manhunt - to point out the hypocrisy and illogic of gun control.
 
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