Defensive shotgun training...who?

[Harold Mayo]

I've trained with the handgun, self-loading rifles, and precision rifles but have neglected the shotgun. It's just something that I've never had any desire to mess with and I'm also not fond of shooting something that hurts me. I've owned defensive shotguns just for the hell of it but have always sold them since they never got used. I've recently decided to go ahead and add defensive shotgun skills to the repetoire but have a quandary as to an instructor. While I know that they are both good, I have to choose only one between John Farnham and Louis Awerbuck. Anyone have any advice? If there's anything that you don't want to say in public, please PM me.

I'll be using an 870 with bead sight if that matters.

 

[ar10]

I don't have any idea of the two people you mentioned, but I did take the course. I was pretty careful on the instructor I wanted teaching the course, there's a lot of people training that shouldn't. Mine was a retired LEO who's been teaching LE for years. He knew what he was doing. The two day class that included a lot of stuff I never even thought about. Night shooting w/o flash lights, shooting w/o aiming, loads from bird shot to slugs and he also showed us the effects of different shots through walls. I'm glad I took the class and feel I got my money's worth.
I think you should find out how much time you spend on the range and how much time you spend in a classroom.

 

[Fred Fuller]

IMHO Louis Awerbuck is the go-to guy for shotguns. Randy Cain is a close second. I'm biased, I've had Louis' class but haven't yet had a chance to train with Randy. I've trained with John Farnam, just not on shotguns, and he is very good also. All of them are 'old school' and not very politically correct, all of them will definitely give you your money's worth. IMHO you can't go wrong either way.

Make sure your shotgun fits you correctly, and get a premium recoil pad installed NOW. Remington's new offering is supposed to be the heat (Supercell, I think they call it), I've been happy with the Limbsaver, aka Remington R3. Read the ammo load-out for the various classes, you WILL shoot that much. And it shouldn't hurt you physically to do it.

Nothing wrong with a bead IF you can get slug hits on a 10" target out to 50 yards at least with just a bead, you may have some 100 yard slug shots too- that's getting on out there for a bead for most folks. Make sure your sights are on solid if you go with sights, I know that Louis will physically TRY to push them off the gun first thing. Silver solder is best for front sights.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=202292

Louis will be in Texas in June... http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=414856

lpl

 

[Harold Mayo]

I've been leaning toward Awerbuck. I'm actually not in Texas...need to change my profile. Probably go up and take the class in Lebanon, IN.

 

[Dave Williams]

While I haven't trained with Farnam on the shotgun, I've spoken to him about it and seen him run one a bit, and he can really drive a shotgun pretty impressively and is a big fan of shotguns.

One thing to note, normally his shotgun class is only a 4hr block of a two day defensive shotgun/defensive urban rifle class. One of the great things about the shotgun in use as a weapon is that it's simple to teach in a short period of time, and that short period of time reflects that.

Awerbuck's class meanwhile is 3 days.

Just some information for you.

Dave Williams

 

[Harold Mayo]

Thanks, Dave. That actually makes me lean more toward Awerbuck. While it may be a simple skill set, I like to rehearse for a significant amount of time under someone who is doing the teaching (and, hopefully, is a good teacher) and get stuff as ingrained into muscle memory as possible during the length of time allotted before going off on my own.

Awerbuck is in Lebanon, IN with Ken Campbell's bunch later in the year and Farnham is at Tactical Response and I'm now somewhat in the middle of those places now so I was looking at doing a shotgun course as one of my two scheduled ones that I allow myself per year.

 

[Dave Williams]

IIRC the Farnam class at TR is a full two days.

1/2 dozen of one....six of the other.....they are both great instructors.

Dave Williams

 

[ReloaderFred]

There's always Clint Smith, at Thunder Ranch, Oregon. The problem is being able to get into one of his classes, since he's booked pretty tight.

Hope this helps.

Fred

I just checked his website and he doesn't offer a stand alone shotgun course.

 

[Harold Mayo]

Plenty of guys out there teaching what I don't know but I have to stay budget-minded and keep as close to home as possible (or go to training in an area where I can combine a work trip in with the training to reduce costs).

Another reason that I'm thinking Awerbuck is that he's kind of known as an 870 guy and I think that's what I'll settle on. I've owned Benellis and an 11-87P but, for a general-use and relatively inexpensive shotgun, the 870 is hard to beat.

 

[Mello]

I attended what I think was the first Social Shotgun class at Gunsite many moons ago taught by John Satterwight. I used an 870 12ga with a magazine extension, a smoothbore 20" barrel with rifle sights, and a leather ammo cuff.

There were only four students, so we got to shoot a lot. Two of the four students were Gunsite instructors, one instructor was Clint Smith.

While I have not attended Thunder Ranch, I believe Clint Smith has top notch instruction. Gunsite still offers their 260 Defensive Shotgun 5 day course.

 

[Dave Williams]

Wow mello, how about a belated AAR of that class? EVERYONE here would be interested in it.

Dave Williams

 

[Snarlingiron]

Ok. I know you said you had narrowed it down to Farnham and Awerbuck but I have to chime in. Bill Davison at Tac Pro Shooting Center teaches one of the best shotgun classes available.

Bill is a former Royal British Marine and Special Boat Service guy and has worked in covert operations all over the world. Bill loves the shotgun, and loves to teach it.

Take a look at this:
http://www.tacproshootingcenter.com/classes_shotgun1.html

You will come out of this class knowing how to operate a shotgun in many different scenarios, and you will know the capabilities of your weapon and ammo, and most importantly the capabilities of yourself.

I know a gentlemen that has taken Awerbuck's class and Bill's class, and his advice is: "Take Bill's Class". As far as John Farnham's course is concerned, you could not possibly cram what I got from Tac Pro into 4 or 5 hours.

Nothing wrong with Awerbuck's class, but you will get more hardcore kick ass instruction in Bill's course at Tac Pro. Bill routinely does training for the U.S. millitary and many police departments.

I am taking Bill's Advanced Shotgun course in April.

The classes run 3 days, and you will run and work your can off. I know the course description says plan on 150 rounds of bird shot, 100 rounds of 00 buck shot, and 25 slugs, but we shot at least twice that.

This is hardcore stuff, and Bill will work hard at working you under stressful situations.

When I finished this course, I felt very confident in my shotgun skills.

 

[Bix]

1/2 dozen of one....six of the other.....they are both great instructors.

Having trained with both, I agree completely.

I have not done shotgun with Farnam; but I've had the pleasure of doing a Awerbuck shotgun course in Lebanon. Sheriff Ken is an excellent host and an excellent instructor.

I think the (pump action) shotgun is a comparatively difficult platform to run well. There's a lot to keep track of...

So, the best answer is to do one this year, and the other next year . And then Cain, and then Haught and then......

 

[Harold Mayo]

Finally changed my profile. I'm not in Texas now or Tac Pro would be an option. Just looking at stuff relatively local (with 4 hours or so). Not looking at much other than a basic shotgun course as I don't see myself using it a lot...it's just a platform that I've never trained on and want to get the skills.

 

[Mello]

Wow mello, how about a belated AAR of that class? EVERYONE here would be interested in it.

Dave Williams

It was a long time ago. Maybe 20 years now.

I don't remember a much that would interest you. We shot on the pistol range, a dry gulch, and one or two fun houses.

Satterwhite demonstrated his ability to shoot 7 clays that he threw into the air before they hit the ground with a 870.

One thing stands out was the forceful discussion between Cooper and Satterwhite about whether it was better to load while moving or standing still. One was saying it is better to load where you are because you have cleared the area you can see and if you move you might uncover yourself to hostile fire. The other said it is better to be a moving target than a still target. We tried both to see what could be done. Moving and loading is a difficult dance step.

Since this was the first class I don't know what they decided to teach after that.

It was gratifying to find that when you move with a 12ga with the front sight just below your dominant eye's line of sight and the butt down around your strong hand side belt, that you could get on target as fast as with a handgun and hit a LOT harder at any range under 25 yards. When the butt hit your shoulder you were on target and fired. With open choke barrels the buck shot spread so fast that after 25 yards only 2 or fewer of the 00 buckshot (out of 12) would hit the Pepper Poppers. A full choke barrel would extend that range.

 

[Dave Williams]

Mello,

Thanks for the info......if you think of anything else, don't be shy.

You are certainly lucky to have trained with those legendary men.

Dave Williams