Dillon XL 650 and 9's, AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!

[gun'sRgood]

Using mixed primers will always complicate consistent seating and diagnosing issues which occur. While SPP are nominally the same dimensions, there are variations which cause the “feel” of seating them fully to differ

OK, Thx. I've got a few great tips from this. I know that I should try one at a time but! The range is 2 hr round trip and no need to load more than needed to check for results. I imagine I'm going to try all the fixes at once and hope for a "WaLa" moment! However there are seemingly incongruous help tips. Exp. is right above you. If the primer just needs to hit the brass then why should it matter if there are different primers in the Q? I'm sure I'm missing something here. Thanks for the time to teach guys!

 

[9mmepiphany]

If the primer just needs to hit the brass then why should it matter if there are different primers in the Q? I'm sure I'm missing something here.

You are. Our two post actually complement each other.

The first explains the goal, the second explain a way of more consistently attaining the goal

 

[loadedround]

If the problem continues, call Dillon. Best customer service in the industry in my opinion.

 

[8Ball_99]

Yep, thx for the search! Here's my question for depth issues. I corn polish and that does not "clear" the primer pocket completly. I'm wondering if I'm smashing the primer up against some crude in the pocket?

I do not clean my primer pockets on 9mm. I dry tumble my brass with the spent primers in. Then run them through the Dillon. If you are decapping and then dry tumbling. There is a pretty good chance you are getting media stuck in some of the primer pockets. IME, You pretty much have to inspect every primer pocket when you do that. When I first started reloading I use to do that. I quit a long time ago because it added extra steps and actually caused more problems.

As far as the 750xl being better then the 650xl. IMO it isn't. I own them both. I don't think Dillon replaced the 650xl because of problems. They did smooth out the action on the 750xl some, but with the aftermarket upgrades the 650xl is very smooth. Most of those aftermarket add ons were the changes to the 750 lol. If you look at the two presses together I actually think it was a cost cutting thing. The 750xl uses the older style primer assembly that is much simpler and with out a doubt is cheaper to manufacture. I actually prefer the 650xl primer system. The only negative to it is it is more trouble to switch from small to large primers. Which I never do anyway because I have more then one press.

 

[Soonerpesek]

Here's my question for depth issues. I corn polish and that does not "clear" the primer pocket completly. I'm wondering if I'm smashing the primer up against some crude in the pocket?

Wouldn't your decapping pin in the size die in Station#1 take care of that...?

 

[9mmepiphany]

…as far as the 750xl being better then the 650xl. IMO it isn't. I own them both. I don't think Dillon replaced the 650xl because of problems.

I’ve loaded on the 650 belonging to two friends and have had a 750 belonging to another friend on my bench for the last year. I consider the 750 an upgraded/optimized 650. I think one of the main reasons Dillon introduced the 750 was because they got tied of replacing the priming system when they’d blow up and shoot the primer tube into the ceiling

If you were just starting out the 750 is the way to go. If you already have a 650, you can get most of the way to the level of the 750 with the aftermarket upgrades

They did smooth out the action on the 750xl some, but with the aftermarket upgrades the 650xl is very smooth. Most of those aftermarket add ons were the changes to the 750 lol.

The 750 addresses all the issues that aftermarket parts did on the 650…so it is as good as a 650 can be straight out of the box. Of course, this doesn’t prevent the user from adding even more aftermarket parts to really bling out their 750 (roller bearings on sliding interfaces)

If you look at the two presses together I actually think it was a cost cutting thing. The 750xl uses the older style primer assembly that is much simpler and with out a doubt is cheaper to manufacture. I actually prefer the 650xl primer system.

The 750 uses the proven priming system from their 550. This was to prevent blown primers from setting off the whole disc/column.

I also think the system used in the 650 is superior. Dillon just incorporated one flaw in the execution. The Mark 7 and new Frankfort Arsenal 10-station progressive use the same system, but they have space out the primer on the feed system by 90 degrees

 

[lordpaxman]

Yep, thx for the search! Here's my question for depth issues. I corn polish and that does not "clear" the primer pocket completly. I'm wondering if I'm smashing the primer up against some crude in the pocket?

Well there’s always that possibility. Deconstruct some of your proud primer rounds and see. Yes yes, take care when punching the live primer out but I’ve never had a live one go off. I’ve don’t clean primer pockets. Good luck.

 

[jmorris]

If the primer just needs to hit the brass then why should it matter if there are different primers in the Q?

This is a good question. I can tell you that when I load 45 ACP on an SD or 650 vs a 1050, I cull S&B brass because primers are seated by feel on the first two machines and there is noticeably more resistance when seating primers into S&B brass. So I have to change the amount of force I am pushing, just for them.

So, I separate them and load them all together. That doesn’t make them any easier to seat but now the force I use to seat primers is consistent for each case. I also have matching head stamps and use this ammunition when I travel to lost brass matches, so I don’t have to sort them out again.

When I load, I try and repeat operations consistently, mixing primers wouldn’t ever even be a consideration. If it’s fooling you into thinking you are seating primers all the same but 4% fail, I would discontinue the practice myself.

 

[jmorris]

Wouldn't your decapping pin in the size die in Station#1 take care of that...?

The decapping pin pushes the anvil and old primer cup out of the hole, it doesn’t clean the pocket. The primer also moves back out of the pocket upon firing so you are not even left with a clean ring from where the cup was in contact with the bottom of the pocket.



That said, I have loaded hundreds of thousands of rounds with fouled pockets and it is not an issue, if you seat the primer correctly.

 

[EricBu]

I do not clean my primer pockets on 9mm. I dry tumble my brass with the spent primers in. Then run them through the Dillon. If you are decapping and then dry tumbling. There is a pretty good chance you are getting media stuck in some of the primer pockets. IME, You pretty much have to inspect every primer pocket when you do that. When I first started reloading I use to do that. I quit a long time ago because it added extra steps and actually caused more problems.

As far as the 750xl being better then the 650xl. IMO it isn't. I own them both. I don't think Dillon replaced the 650xl because of problems. They did smooth out the action on the 750xl some, but with the aftermarket upgrades the 650xl is very smooth. Most of those aftermarket add ons were the changes to the 750 lol. If you look at the two presses together I actually think it was a cost cutting thing. The 750xl uses the older style primer assembly that is much simpler and with out a doubt is cheaper to manufacture. I actually prefer the 650xl primer system. The only negative to it is it is more trouble to switch from small to large primers. Which I never do anyway because I have more then one press.

This ^^^^ times about a hundred. I've had both and now have a couple of 750s. In hindsight, my 650s were actually better machines (with all the standard addons), and produced more consistent ammo, especially once they were all dialed in. The 650 primer system, while more complex and a huge pain to swing sizes, was really bullet proof once it was dialed in. My 750s are great machines, but require learning an entirely new set of little tweaks and such, and while their primer system (basically a slightly modified version of the 550 primer system) is easier to swing, it is also a bit more finicky. That said, most of the tweaks, tuning, and adjustment one learns with the 550 applies to the 750 priming system. As far as reports of people breaking the index ring on them......I personally think that has to be mostly operator error. I've got easily over 50K rounds on 2 of them, still on the original index rings. I think people force them when something isn't quite right and that's what causes the breakage. I do go through some primer op rods though. It seems that if you adjust them to get 100% primer bar extension, then the elbow rests on the pulley, and after about 10K rounds or so, the rod breaks there. You can adjust it off the elbow, but then you risk it not picking up a primer every time as any slight disturbance like spilled powder might keep the primer bar from going all the way back. Dillon says their new op rods are hardened more, so we'll see. For now I just have a lot of spares on hand;-) My 650s didn't have grease fittings on them either, so you did have to pull them apart to clean and lube now and then. The 750s have the grease fittings, I just hit each one with one pump from a mini grease gun about every 5K rounds or so. Basically, if someone were to ask me today if they should upgrade a 650 to a 750, I would say nope, you aren't really gaining anything. Better use of money would be spending the 80 bucks or whatever it is now and shipping your 650 to Dillon for the refurbishment program...or getting a 1100 or 1050.

 

[jmorris]

OK, Thx. I've got a few great tips from this. I know that I should try one at a time but! The range is 2 hr round trip and no need to load more than needed to check for results. I imagine I'm going to try all the fixes at once and hope for a "WaLa" moment!

You can measure the depth of the primers using the depth blade your calipers.



Open the calipers, place blade on the primer and bring calipers into contact with the base of the case. I would ensure zero of your calipers on a flat surface to begin with.



If you have a fishing scale you can even pull back on the handle and know exactly how much force in needed to seat a primer to a particular depth using the above method of measuring.



A little playing in this area may bring upon a “light bulb” moment and help you clear the primer seating hurtle your facing.

 

[kidneyboy]

Pretty sure if you sort by headstamp and consistently use the same primers your problems will go away. Eliminate variables before trying other stuff. You already have all the stuff to try this. Lots of overthinking on this thread.

 

[Soonerpesek]

The decapping pin pushes the anvil and old primer cup out of the hole, it doesn’t clean the pocket.

I guess I wasn't quite clear......I was talking about the pin knocking any MEDIA material out if the hole.....

I took his statement as cob was getting stuck in there...

 

[gun'sRgood]

If the problem continues, call Dillon. Best customer service in the industry in my opinion.

I used to think so. Some 20ish years ago I whole heartedly would agree. Then about five ish years ago I, or close to the NRA Show in Atlanta, The guys in the booth as well as corporate did not seem to care what your issue was. It was always user error. Then the 750 came and corporate help seemed to once more be top notch. As well as calling them today is quite refreshing. I ran several service departments for about three decades. This involves teaching techs customer interactions as well as techs seeking help from multiple manufactures. Regardless, it's great to have help with a concerned person on the other side of the phone.

 

[gun'sRgood]

This ^^^^ times about a hundred. I've had both and now have a couple of 750s. In hindsight, my 650s were actually better machines (with all the standard addons), and produced more consistent ammo, especially once they were all dialed in. The 650 primer system, while more complex and a huge pain to swing sizes, was really bullet proof once it was dialed in. My 750s are great machines, but require learning an entirely new set of little tweaks and such, and while their primer system (basically a slightly modified version of the 550 primer system) is easier to swing, it is also a bit more finicky. That said, most of the tweaks, tuning, and adjustment one learns with the 550 applies to the 750 priming system. As far as reports of people breaking the index ring on them......I personally think that has to be mostly operator error. I've got easily over 50K rounds on 2 of them, still on the original index rings. I think people force them when something isn't quite right and that's what causes the breakage. I do go through some primer op rods though. It seems that if you adjust them to get 100% primer bar extension, then the elbow rests on the pulley, and after about 10K rounds or so, the rod breaks there. You can adjust it off the elbow, but then you risk it not picking up a primer every time as any slight disturbance like spilled powder might keep the primer bar from going all the way back. Dillon says their new op rods are hardened more, so we'll see. For now I just have a lot of spares on hand;-) My 650s didn't have grease fittings on them either, so you did have to pull them apart to clean and lube now and then. The 750s have the grease fittings, I just hit each one with one pump from a mini grease gun about every 5K rounds or so. Basically, if someone were to ask me today if they should upgrade a 650 to a 750, I would say nope, you aren't really gaining anything. Better use of money would be spending the 80 bucks or whatever it is now and shipping your 650 to Dillon for the refurbishment program...or getting a 1100 or 1050.

Well done, well said. Great words from a strong history of use. Many appreciations!

 

[gun'sRgood]

You can measure the depth of the primers using the depth blade your calipers.

View attachment 1065010

Open the calipers, place blade on the primer and bring calipers into contact with the base of the case. I would ensure zero of your calipers on a flat surface to begin with.

View attachment 1065007

If you have a fishing scale you can even pull back on the handle and know exactly how much force in needed to seat a primer to a particular depth using the above method of measuring.

View attachment 1065008

A little playing in this area may bring upon a “light bulb” moment and help you clear the primer seating hurtle your facing.

Nice! Great T&T! [That's from medical school. It stands for Teach & Train]

 

[gun'sRgood]

Pretty sure if you sort by headstamp and consistently use the same primers your problems will go away. Eliminate variables before trying other stuff. You already have all the stuff to try this. Lots of overthinking on this thread.

Well, I don't know if I'd call it over thinking as much as redundancy. However, in any science experiment it is mandated that replication happens. Here, when you get similar responses from both staff and well known authors, you know that the time and investment to correct the issue will be done so with the belief that you are on the right track. It a vast resource of experience and very enjoyable experience.

 

[gun'sRgood]

So, what have I learned? Coming here with my issue been a most enjoyable experience! This morning I made the time to measure primer depths, with my super awesome Stearate calipers, as taught above. Christmas present from my dear Wife. I did this after learning from this post that most likely my primers were proud, and not seated to the depth that they were designed to be seated. Also learned here, I now know that there are somethings no to be proud of. Snicker. The ignorance I had of FP's force to primers has left as a result of this post. Thanks! [That was very interesting. It took a while to wrap my aged brain around this Thanks!] Issues to be alert for that I had no idea were issues was a great chapter of ongoing knowledge. Thanks once more! My hijacking of my post has rounded out this whole experience. Currently on order are several upgrades for my 650. Last, I took several rounds of soft strikes and reset the primers to appropriate depths. Well guess what? You guys hit the primer on the head! They fire and happiness abounds! Thanks Guys! I don't know what my next issue will be, but I'm quite sure there will be one, or two, or three, or....What ever they ma be, I'll look forward to having you guys set me straight. So, signing off.... Unless you have one last kernel of knowledge to share.

 

[8Ball_99]

So, what have I learned? Coming here with my issue been a most enjoyable experience! This morning I made the time to measure primer depths, with my super awesome Stearate calipers, as taught above. Christmas present from my dear Wife. I did this after learning from this post that most likely my primers were proud, and not seated to the depth that they were designed to be seated. Also learned here, I now know that there are somethings no to be proud of. Snicker. The ignorance I had of FP's force to primers has left as a result of this post. Thanks! [That was very interesting. It took a while to wrap my aged brain around this Thanks!] Issues to be alert for that I had no idea were issues was a great chapter of ongoing knowledge. Thanks once more! My hijacking of my post has rounded out this whole experience. Currently on order are several upgrades for my 650. Last, I took several rounds of soft strikes and reset the primers to appropriate depths. Well guess what? You guys hit the primer on the head! They fire and happiness abounds! Thanks Guys! I don't know what my next issue will be, but I'm quite sure there will be one, or two, or three, or....What ever they ma be, I'll look forward to having you guys set me straight. So, signing off.... Unless you have one last kernel of knowledge to share.

If you are buying upgrades for your 650. Absolutely be sure to get the pause button for the primer feeder. Hands down the single best aftermarket add on IMO. BTW it's not called a pause button. That is basically what it does.

 

[sevt_chevelle]

IMO the roller bearing is junk and mine now lives in the landfill.
The solid bronze washer is superior.

I've had my 650 for almost a decade now, I've yet to blow up primers or the primer feed system. If one doesn't operate the press like a half retarded monkey and force things, you won't have issues.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I've yet to blow up primers or the primer feed system. If one doesn't operate the press like a half retarded monkey and force things, you won't have issues.

That has always been my thought also. But it must be happening often enough that Dillon got tired of replacing parts and though it more cost effective to introduce the 750

 

[Mark_Mark]

IMO the roller bearing is junk and mine now lives in the landfill.
The solid bronze washer is superior.

I've had my 650 for almost a decade now, I've yet to blow up primers or the primer feed system. If one doesn't operate the press like a half retarded monkey and force things, you won't have issues.

ME! lol

 

[jmorris]

But it must be happening often enough that Dillon got tired of replacing parts

The 650 primer system remains the most reliable primer feed system Dillon has put on any of their presses, also the most expensive to produce, using different parts than all the other Dillon’s from the primer tube to the anvil that pushes them into the pocket. The 750/550 use the same aluminum primer slide that costs a lot less to make. Most, that have used both presses, don’t think the 750 is an “upgrade” from a 650.

Someone taking production costs into account would certainly put the 750 above the 650 though. That’s not because it’s better, just cheaper to produce.

 

[8Ball_99]

The 650 primer system remains the most reliable primer feed system Dillon has put on any of their presses, also the most expensive to produce, using different parts than all the other Dillon’s from the primer tube to the anvil that pushes them into the pocket. The 750/550 use the same aluminum primer slide that costs a lot less to make. Most, that have used both presses, don’t think the 750 is an “upgrade” from a 650.

Someone taking production costs into account would certainly put the 750 above the 650 though. That’s not because it’s better, just cheaper to produce.

Yes exactly. It's a cheaper less reliable system. Spill a little powder on it and see what happens. If a primer doesn't feed you have no visual indicator like on the 650. The only positive of it to the end user is the ability to swap from small to large primers easier.

 

[Nature Boy]

The 650 primer system remains the most reliable primer feed system Dillon has put on any of their presses, also the most expensive to produce, using different parts than all the other Dillon’s from the primer tube to the anvil that pushes them into the pocket. The 750/550 use the same aluminum primer slide that costs a lot less to make. Most, that have used both presses, don’t think the 750 is an “upgrade” from a 650.

Someone taking production costs into account would certainly put the 750 above the 650 though. That’s not because it’s better, just cheaper to produce.

100% agree. I wouldn’t take a 750 over my 650 any day