Dillon XL 650 and 9's, AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!

[gun'sRgood]

Easy.

Grab a gallon sized zip lock bag, two sprays of lube. Dump in brass, roll them around. Dump in case feeder.

fair enough. With these "super-no-need-for-lube-dies" I do not lube 9's. Heck, I'll try a smudge stick! Thx!

 

[gun'sRgood]

Look at the primers when the rounds are in the ammo box. Look from the side to see if the primers are visually seated all the way. This should be a quick and easy check.
View attachment 1064338

Interesting. Helpfull when more than one of you have the same kind of idea! Thx

 

[gun'sRgood]

What exact primers are you using? I can tell you that I did not have that issue with my 650XL loading 9mm using CCI/Fed/Win small pistol and small rifle primes.

Numerous, four or five assorted. We will load around 2K to 3K at a time. Sorry I dont have a better answer. Thx

 

[gun'sRgood]

Im a newbie, but I don’t think this is right. I mean, with a single stage, you have to set up everything right or it won’t run. Same with a turret. Dies all have to be adjusted properly. But on these, you are only working one station and one process at a time.

In a progressive, you do all the stations at one time simultaneously, not others timing.

My 550 is a manual index press, but doesn’t matter, if all dies are right, you feed a case, align a bullet, pull the handle. All stations do their thing. Then push forward to seat the primer, release handle and done. Then, I manually index the platform, quick visual on everything, and repeat. No timing involved.

Interesting as I moved from the Rocker to the 550 to the 650 and now Dillion has redone the 650 to the 750 because of all the problems with the 650. That kinda tells me something might be more than me. That alone frustrates me as the cost is a bit more than. Well, ya know actually it really kind of pisses me off! Dillion was bombarded with complaints with the 650. Even at the NRA shows they tried to say nothing was wrong with the 650. I guess that's why the discontinued it and made the 750 that is supposed to elevate all the 650 issues. What are they doing for all the 650's out there? Absolutely nothing! If you want, PM me and I'll send you all the extra 550 parts I can find. Fair trade for your post. Thx.

 

[gun'sRgood]

When you are out of time, nothing would line up, right? So primers should not even align to seat…or am I missing something?

Your on the right track but that's off my issue. But your correct.

 

[Buzznrose]

But are you running a case feeder and a bullet feeder?

Neither

 

[Erief0g]

Just bouncing more ideas.
If you run mixed brass and you run different primer brands... and no lube...
You will have a very hard time getting "the feel"
What i mean is this. I can load 500 federal, cci, or Winchester brass cartridges and each stroke seems similar. I drop a CBC or S&B brass in there and both the sizing and primer seat are notably harder. Combine that with minute differences in the primer hole size differences and you can be moving right along using the same force on the lever but not making the same progress.

Something to consider. Personally I large batch reload but I sort by headstamp so I'm working the same brass. Once I'm out ill switch to another to get the new headstamp feel.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Something to consider. Personally I large batch reload but I sort by headstamp so I'm working the same brass. Once I'm out ill switch to another to get the new headstamp feel.

I agree, this helps with any press you use. Seat your primers, .003"-.005" under flush to preload them (get the anvil against the primer cake), and sort your brass and your light strike problems should go away, unless you have something wrong with one of your guns.

 

[lordpaxman]

BUT! It was the bras I had shot and bought and reloaded.

Man, you learn something new on this forum every day. I didn’t know you did that with bras.
Regarding primers, @tightgroup tiger said it, measure the primer seating depth. Use your caliper’s depth rod to measure this. I’ve never had a primer seated too deep, but I have had some too shallow.
I don’t have a 650 but shoot with a lot of guys that do. Dillon is the most used press in the competitive surveys I see and the 650 used to be king. It’s changed slightly where more are using the 1050/1100 and I know the 1100 has a slightly different priming system.

Another thought the first strike was setting the appropriate primer depth. But if that's right, wouldn't it fire on the next attempt?

Only if the first primer strike seated the primer deeper - I’ve seen this in a revolver more so than a semi-auto. What’s the problem gun, and does this happen only with your reloads? I’d take it down to the firing pin and give it a good cleaning before anything else. Let us know what you find? Good luck.

 

[JEBruns]

Interesting as I moved from the Rocker to the 550 to the 650 and now Dillion has redone the 650 to the 750 because of all the problems with the 650. That kinda tells me something might be more than me. That alone frustrates me as the cost is a bit more than. Well, ya know actually it really kind of pisses me off! Dillion was bombarded with complaints with the 650. Even at the NRA shows they tried to say nothing was wrong with the 650. I guess that's why the discontinued it and made the 750 that is supposed to elevate all the 650 issues. What are they doing for all the 650's out there? Absolutely nothing! If you want, PM me and I'll send you all the extra 550 parts I can find. Fair trade for your post. Thx.

What 650 problems? I've never heard of any chronic issues with them. Mine pounded out many, many tens of thousands of 9mm with very little issue. I was not a big fan of the primer system indexing a primer each time, but there are ways to mitigate that. I follow several reloading forums and would say it's pretty unusual to hear any negatives about the 650, or any other Dillon loader.

 

[EricBu]

When you are out of time, nothing would line up, right? So primers should not even align to seat…or am I missing something?

Not that simple. It's not a black/white issue. You're applying a binary set to a non-binary problem. It's like the timing in your old '72 Nova. Get it a couple of degrees off, it runs, but not quite right. Same with a dillon progressive, even a manually indexing press like the 550. Toolhead platform .01 off? Guess what, primer cup won't line up just right, sizing die, seating die, everything. A new loader may not even notice. If you search around, you'll find literally thousands of posts of people who can't figure out why there brass is being sized slightly off, or primers are seating slightly off, or bullets seating with a bulge on one side of the case, or what have you. It's not complex, but it is something that takes some skill and experience. I've been running Dillons for 35 years now, from the 450L up to 1050s, and everything in between. And allignment issues are the single most common problem that most people have with them, and until they experience it, and learn how to work through it, it will baffle and frustrate them. That's why oh so often you'll see the same response in many of these posts "Buy the Dillon allignment tool, and follow the directions to verify your allignment".

This reply is really OT though, OP found his issue and it wasn't related, but I just wanted to add some insight onto the timing issue. Timing and allignment is everything on a progressive, and learning to tune that is what seperates the men from the boys in big press land. There's a reason why one guy shows up to the range with ammo from a 650 and shoots 8 inch groups and says "well, that's about all you can expect from a progressive", and another guy shows up and shoot's MOA he also loaded on a 650. Well, that and the fact that there are a whole lotta mofos that can't shoot

 

[Nature Boy]

As said above, the primers need to be seated below flush. One thing to check is your shell plate. It needs to be fully flush with the base. Tap it with your finger and if it rocks, even a little, you need to tighten the bolt a bit more.

 

[jmorris]

Progressive press are technical, like timing a valve job

The only one I have had where you could come close to that analogy would be the Hornady LNL and then that would only be applicable to the index/paw adjustment. Maybe one could make that stretch with the Loadmaster and it’s indexing rod, setup.

A progressive isn’t a magic machine, it just does every step with each stroke of the handle. One must be vigilant in that they are making full and complete strokes all all of them.

Only the 8 station Dillon presses have a ratchet lock out feature, preventing anything except a full and complete stroke. The operator also sets the depth a primer will be seated with an Allen wrench. Why you don’t read a lot of high primer/light strike threads posted by their users, they can’t mess it up unless it’s simply set wrong.

The 650’s are capable of seating the primer to the bottom of any pocket, that has a bottom.



The user has to push sufficiently to fully seat them though. If the alignment is good enough the primer makes it in the hole, just not deep enough, it’s not an alignment issue causing the problem.

 

[jmorris]

I did not know that! I thought that primers had to seat up to contact with the brass?

The primer is going to be in contact with the brass upon its entire circumference as will the rim of the cup and anvil.

They will be seated to a depth where they certainly won’t be proud of the base of the case and seating flush with the base of the case may not be deep enough.

For example, this primer will be going off when struck because the primer is seated all the way to the bottom of the pocket. Note that it is below flush of the base of the case. Not only can you feel this, in this case (pun intended) one can clearly see it’s also below flush.



What do your seated primers look like?

 

[roval]

I just flashed on something about the Dillon progressive.

How do you lube the cartridge to size it?

for pistol cartidges the media dust acts like a lube. i tumble brand new starline brass to give them a light coating of dust. more simple for me than doing one shot and zip lock. i had a new 357 brass pull out the carbide ring. dillon replaced the die.
rifle is only semi progressive process with powder charging and seating. sizing is single stage.

 

[gifbohane]

[QUOTE="roval, post: 12233725, member: 151007"rifle is only semi progressive process with powder charging and seating. sizing is single stage.[/QUOTE]

Certainly not trying to be argumentative but If I have to take cases on and off the Dillon press or do another process on another press then I am defeating the purpose of "One pull, one round."

This is probably the only reason that I have never upgraded to a $1,000 Dillon, the all in price. Also I am anal about each step being checked.

 

[gun'sRgood]

The only one I have had where you could come close to that analogy would be the Hornady LNL and then that would only be applicable to the index/paw adjustment. Maybe one could make that stretch with the Loadmaster and it’s indexing rod, setup.

A progressive isn’t a magic machine, it just does every step with each stroke of the handle. One must be vigilant in that they are making full and complete strokes all all of them.

Only the 8 station Dillon presses have a ratchet lock out feature, preventing anything except a full and complete stroke. The operator also sets the depth a primer will be seated with an Allen wrench. Why you don’t read a lot of high primer/light strike threads posted by their users, they can’t mess it up unless it’s simply set wrong.

The 650’s are capable of seating the primer to the bottom of any pocket, that has a bottom.

View attachment 1064538

The user has to push sufficiently to fully seat them though. If the alignment is good enough the primer makes it in the hole, just not deep enough, it’s not an alignment issue causing the problem.

You might be onto something. With all the stuff I've bought through the ages I think I've got about a zillion Allen wrenches. It didn't hit me until your post that perhaps I do need to adjust the seating depth. My bad to assume I had that done. Definitely worth checking. Thx!

 

[gun'sRgood]

The primer is going to be in contact with the brass upon its entire circumference as will the rim of the cup and anvil.

They will be seated to a depth where they certainly won’t be proud of the base of the case and seating flush with the base of the case may not be deep enough.

For example, this primer will be going off when struck because the primer is seated all the way to the bottom of the pocket. Note that it is below flush of the base of the case. Not only can you feel this, in this case (pun intended) one can clearly see it’s also below flush.

View attachment 1064539

What do your seated primers look like?

Nice! What do you think about this. Take the soft strikes and had re-prime them. Or give them an extra squeeze. Would you expect an already soft struck primer to go off with this application? and, Thx!

 

[Mark_Mark]

The only one I have had where you could come close to that analogy would be the Hornady LNL and then that would only be applicable to the index/paw adjustment. Maybe one could make that stretch with the Loadmaster and it’s indexing rod, setup.

A progressive isn’t a magic machine, it just does every step with each stroke of the handle. One must be vigilant in that they are making full and complete strokes all all of them.

Only the 8 station Dillon presses have a ratchet lock out feature, preventing anything except a full and complete stroke. The operator also sets the depth a primer will be seated with an Allen wrench. Why you don’t read a lot of high primer/light strike threads posted by their users, they can’t mess it up unless it’s simply set wrong.

The 650’s are capable of seating the primer to the bottom of any pocket, that has a bottom.

View attachment 1064538

The user has to push sufficiently to fully seat them though. If the alignment is good enough the primer makes it in the hole, just not deep enough, it’s not an alignment issue causing the problem.

when people say, Don’t even drink 1 beer when reloading. It really important to be clear minded with a progressive. Cold medicine, alcohol, pain meds, too much sugar…. all a no no in progressive

 

[Soonerpesek]

It really important to be clear minded with a progressive. Cold medicine, alcohol, pain meds, too much sugar…. all a no no in progressive

I would suggest to be clear minded in ANY loading operation on ANY type of press/tool........

 

[Mark_Mark]

I would suggest to be clear minded in ANY loading operation on ANY type of press/tool........

especially progressive

I can single stage 9mm half a sleep. Not that I have, but I got my process down to a T with QC and stuff. Can’t say the same for progressive

 

[jmorris]

You might be onto something. With all the stuff I've bought through the ages I think I've got about a zillion Allen wrenches. It didn't hit me until your post that perhaps I do need to adjust the seating depth. My bad to assume I had that done. Definitely worth checking. Thx!

Only the 8 station presses like the 1050 and up numbers have adjustable depth seating. All of the others, including the 650 seat at the opposite end of the stroke as everything else, pushing the handle away from you until the primer stops going any deeper, is all you should be thinking about at that instant.

Nice! What do you think about this. Take the soft strikes and had re-prime them. Or give them an extra squeeze. Would you expect an already soft struck primer to go off with this application? and, Thx!

I can’t say that I have not reseated a primer on a charged case; however, My Brother and I didn’t know anything when we started reloading, closing on 40 years ago. We did reseat many, until we learned how to properly seat primers on the new Dillon we bought together but I would never suggest or allow anyone in my family to do so. The risk vs reward, just isn’t there for me anymore but you also loose your invincibility as you get older…

Just to ensure we are not talking about a mechanical problem, remove a case from #2 and push the handle like you are seating a primer. Is even the primer anvil protruding like the photo in #38?

 

[gun'sRgood]

Only the 8 station presses like the 1050 and up numbers have adjustable depth seating. All of the others, including the 650 seat at the opposite end of the stroke as everything else, pushing the handle away from you until the primer stops going any deeper, is all you should be thinking about at that instant.



I can’t say that I have not reseated a primer on a charged case; however, My Brother and I didn’t know anything when we started reloading, closing on 40 years ago. We did reseat many, until we learned how to properly seat primers on the new Dillon we bought together but I would never suggest or allow anyone in my family to do so. The risk vs reward, just isn’t there for me anymore but you also loose your invincibility as you get older…

Just to ensure we are not talking about a mechanical problem, remove a case from #2 and push the handle like you are seating a primer. Is even the primer anvil protruding like the photo in #38?

Checking. In the meanwhile, it seems that there was some chatter about folks changing the spring on the ball that locks the plate? This as when the plate rotates there is a "jump" that tends to toss a bit of powder. Here I'm heisting my own thread but heck? Why not. Thanks. I pulled all the round that hit soft and hence no pic. Since the problem is ~4% pics of new rounds are not showing me anything. I'll get them posted for you guys. Thanks for the ideas and support.

 

[Zendude]

Nice! What do you think about this. Take the soft strikes and had re-prime them. Or give them an extra squeeze. Would you expect an already soft struck primer to go off with this application? and, Thx!

I’ve given an high primer on a loaded round an extra squeeze, but slowly. Not saying I recommend it though. I definitely wouldn’t try it on a primer that has already been struck.

 

[MikeInOr]

To me it sounds like the brass you added to your range brass is out of spec, specifically too short. 9mm seats on the mouth of the case. If the case is too short the primer will not be close enough to the firing pin to get a good solid strike. The extractor is likely to hold the rim of the case out a bit so the round is not fully seated in the chamber. When the firing pin moves forwards it makes a lite strike on the primer and pushes the whole round forwards into the chamber never able to impact the primer hard enough to start ignition. Your plunk test is not going to show you that the cases are too short.

Use a caliper to measure a case with a lite strike and compare it with saami specs. I think it is extremely likely that the case is shorter than spec.

If this is the case (I have high confidence it is) you should be able to sort out the bad cases with a case gauge:
https://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Reloading-Luger-Pistol-Cartridge/dp/B005I0ITGO

You should even be able to use the case gauge on your loaded ammo to see if a case registers as too short.

Another possibility is the primer pockets in the cases are too deep. This would have the same effect as the case being too short. With a deep primer pocket the primer is also too far from the firing pin for a solid strike... my bet is on case length though. It could also be a combination of slightly deep primer pockets and slightly short but still in spec cases.

I have only had my 650xl for 30 years now and they are pieces of junk! They should be sold off very cheap and you should be very grateful if you are even able to unload it on some sucker for dirt cheap. Please PM me and I will assist you with getting rid of your 650xl.