Dillon XL 650 and 9's, AAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!

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gun'sRgood said:
Checking. In the meanwhile, it seems that there was some chatter about folks changing the spring on the ball that locks the plate? This as when the plate rotates there is a "jump" that tends to toss a bit of powder. Here I'm heisting my own thread but heck? Why not. Thanks. I pulled all the round that hit soft and hence no pic. Since the problem is ~4% pics of new rounds are not showing me anything. I'll get them posted for you guys. Thanks for the ideas and support.
Click to expand...

If you are officially approving a Hi-Jack of your thread, the "jump" issue. I did the bearing kit for mine. This was because loading 32 ACP literally drove me insane with that jump. When you are using 2.1 grains of powder, and 1.5 of them spill out...you want to tear your hair out. The bearing kit worked so good, I use it for everything on both my 750s now. Also has the benefit of eliminating all play in the shell plate as well as getting rid of the jump, and makes the entire press much smoother. Very worthwhile add on IMHO. If you search for this name:

Hit Factor Shooting Supply, LLC Shellplate Bearing Kit for Dillon XL650 / XL750
 
gun'sRgood said:
Checking. In the meanwhile, it seems that there was some chatter about folks changing the spring on the ball that locks the plate? This as when the plate rotates there is a "jump" that tends to toss a bit of powder. Here I'm heisting my own thread but heck? Why not. Thanks. I pulled all the round that hit soft and hence no pic. Since the problem is ~4% pics of new rounds are not showing me anything. I'll get them posted for you guys. Thanks for the ideas and support.
Click to expand...

The "upgrade" is a plastic ball to replace the steel ball bearing AND a replacement spring. The theory is less moving mass of the lighter ball means less inertia and hence a softer index. I have this "upgrade" and to me the difference is minor.

There is also an "upgrade" that replaces the washer on the pin that secures the shell plate with a flat bearing. Again, to me just a minor noticeable difference.

Another upgrade is a roller bearing for underneath the shell stage to reduce the friction when indexing the shell plate. I did notice an immediate difference with this upgrade.

Yet another upgrade is a roller bearing on the shell feeder to reduce friction. To me this was also immediately noticeable.

The best 650xl upgrade by far (IMHO) is the led light kit that sticks to the under side of the head holder part of the press and lights up the whole stage with many LEDs. I love this upgrade!
 
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EricBu said:
If you are officially approving a Hi-Jack of your thread, the "jump" issue. I did the bearing kit for mine. This was because loading 32 ACP literally drove me insane with that jump. When you are using 2.1 grains of powder, and 1.5 of them spill out...you want to tear your hair out. The bearing kit worked so good, I use it for everything on both my 750s now. Also has the benefit of eliminating all play in the shell plate as well as getting rid of the jump, and makes the entire press much smoother. Very worthwhile add on IMHO. If you search for this name:

Hit Factor Shooting Supply, LLC Shellplate Bearing Kit for Dillon XL650 / XL750
Click to expand...

It has been a long time since I have reloaded .380 or 9mm so maybe the affect of the upgrades are more pronounced than I realize because I have been reloading larger pistol cases and bottle neck cases. I recall the "upgrade" being fairly cheap.
 
MikeInOr said:
It has been a long time since I have reloaded .380 or 9mm so maybe the affect of the upgrades are more pronounced than I realize because I have been reloading larger pistol cases and bottle neck cases. I recall the "upgrade" being fairly cheap.
Click to expand...
That kit combines all the upgrades you mentioned in your post. The spring, the light polymer detent ball, and the bearing kit. I've never run with just parts of this, only with the whole kit installed. Getting rid of the jump was huge enough, but being able to remove all the shell plate play was a big deal for me too. Always seemed like if I tightened it enough to reduce the play, then it was dragging slightly. Not with the bearing kit!
 
OK, late to the game here, I too have experienced light strikes of Wolf primers in the past, on a different press though :uhoh:.
I added a hand priming tool to my range bag and when I got a round that would not detonate, I would put on a heavy work glove put the dud in the hand tool and squeeze it.
You could feel if the primer moved and was further seated with this method.

OH, I also put my gloved hand around the corner of the shooting bench before squeezing, to limit any exposure to the dud in case it went off.
None ever went off though :thumbup:

I compared the measurements of those primers to the SAAMI specs and found the cup to be shorter and the anvils seated deeper into those cups, flush with the cup edge.
This is not a fix for what you have going on put can determine if the primers are seated completely.
jmo,
.
Edit: I have scuffed 100s of 22LR duds on pavement to set them off and in every case the case side ruptured, and the bullet remained in the case.
just sayin'
.
 
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gifbohane said:
[QUOTE="roval, post: 12233725, member: 151007"rifle is only semi progressive process with powder charging and seating. sizing is single stage.
Click to expand...

Certainly not trying to be argumentative but If I have to take cases on and off the Dillon press or do another process on another press then I am defeating the purpose of "One pull, one round."

This is probably the only reason that I have never upgraded to a $1,000 Dillon, the all in price. Also I am anal about each step being checked.[/QUOTE]
mine is a 550 and i don't know about others but with all the case prep of rifle brass. lube, size , trim deburr chamfer unless you have the trim accessory in station one you cant load full progressive with rifle. having gotten a stuck case with one shot i use imperial wax. which further slows things down.
 
gifbohane said:
If I have to take cases on and off the Dillon press or do another process on another press then I am defeating the purpose of "One pull, one round."

This is probably the only reason that I have never upgraded to a $1,000 Dillon, the all in price.
Click to expand...
The only way you’re going to get “One pull, One round” on a progressive is to go to one with 10 stations.

Folks I know who load on a Dillon and shoot a lot of rifle rounds, do their case prep on a 650/750 and complete loading on a 1000/1100
 
gun'sRgood said:
Checking. In the meanwhile, it seems that there was some chatter about folks changing the spring on the ball that locks the plate? This as when the plate rotates there is a "jump" that tends to toss a bit of powder. Here I'm heisting my own thread but heck? Why not...
Click to expand...

The “why not” is because everything happens with each stroke of the handle with a progressive press. You can “shotgun” try and solve changing all sorts of stuff and get lost. It’s actually pretty easy to get lost in all the things you don’t know, being new to a particular progressive press. It is for this reason alone, I suggest one use any press as the mfg. designed and shipped as is for at least enough time as it takes to see how it works as intended. If you have problems and contact the people that designed and built it, they will know exactly what you are working with, if you don’t alter it before hand. More importantly you will know from first hand experience if any change from the factory configuration you make, is an improvement or not. If you “fix” something you have never used, you won’t know if you made it better or worse.

Think of progressive as doing one thing after another (because that is what you are doing), to the point all are completed at once.

So, set station #1 up. Once all is right on #1, move on to #2, then #3, and so on. It would be unsound reasoning to think you can repair unacceptable results from a previous operation, in subsequent steps.

If you can’t seat a primer correctly, there is very little reason to move on. A fail at #2 but making something after that better, doesn’t make the end product work as that goal has already been lost. Focus on the issue at hand and solve it first, after that you can address other issues that may or may not pop up.

I have tried all sorts of stuff because I enjoy learning something I didn’t know. MANY of the folklore “upgrades” on the 650 might be beneficial for a or a few specific conditions but are not “game changers”.

Chopped up springs, bearings made from different materials etc, are sold from a number of places. If you want you can try them all yourself but a thrust washer and two flat shims will beat them all.

On the 650 the Timken 815-NTA is the one you would use and is less than $2.
https://www.zoro.com/tritan-needle-thrust-brg-bore-0500in-18300-rpm-nta815/i/G0317759/feature-product?utm_source=google&utm_medium=surfaces&utm_campaign=shopping feed&utm_content=free google shopping clicks&gclid=Cj0KCQiAmpyRBhC-ARIsABs2EApprY2ygJMhtEXVxNLN3iOY7TLJBE0wI7hZQY4ZLkHUggcYNd3XbNUaAvP0EALw_wcB



As far as 650 modifications go, the thrust bearing can be beneficial and the 3D printed primer system “switch” is nice.



I would put both well above ball/spring alterations under the shell plate.
 
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Soonerpesek said:
I would suggest to be clear minded in ANY loading operation on ANY type of press/tool........
Click to expand...
And unloading.
I might have missed it but would like to know what gun the OP’s having the most issue with. I’ve “unloaded” a lot of reloaded 9mm and been at matches where a lot has been fired with mixed HS range brass loaded on all kinds of presses, and for the most part the only reason primers FTF is a gun malfunction. There is always the possibility of a bad batch of primers, but even that seems to be miniscule.
 
Thanks for all the great posts! I hope this thread continues as I’m learning a LOT! Did some research about alignment and will be ordering a Dillon alignment tool down the road when I get ready to pull everything apart and clean it. I now understand that issue and will watch out for it.

My 550C is a 4 station tool head, and I’ve only loaded 9MM to this point, so rifles are another story, but I’m doing fine (ignorance is bliss???) just using a sizing/decap die and a seating die. Fourth station is empty. All ammo loading and firing great for me.

I do prep my range brass off the machine. I de-prime on either a universal depriming die on a single stage or use the Frankfort depriming tool. Then, I wet tumble to clean and dry tumble to polish using a good polish. I do not lube my RCBS carbide dies.

Simple but working for me at this point having loaded around 800 rounds and fired a third of them with great results.

I did have issues early on but those were due to the digital scale I was using, a beam scale has resolved that SNAFU.

Getting ready to load .38 special wad cutters…

Eventually I’ll be loading .223, and will get to experience how that works. But for now, just slowly getting back into the groove.

Appreciate the discussion…thanks for the details and information!

Buzz
 
I've loaded more rounds on my Dillon 650 then I care to count. I've had to replace a few parts and I've done most of the upgrades mentioned in this thread. I don't think it's a problem with the press design. Primers not going off is either bad primers, not seated primers or your brass is out of spec. Assuming it's not the firearm of course. The only one of those that has to do with the press is primers not seated. You control that though. Like others mentioned the press itself has more then enough travel for any primer pocket.
 
jmorris said:
The “why not” is because everything happens with each stroke of the handle with a progressive press. You can “shotgun” try and solve changing all sorts of stuff and get lost. It’s actually pretty easy to get lost in all the things you don’t know, being new to a particular progressive press. It is for this reason alone, I suggest one use any press as the mfg. designed and shipped as is for at least enough time as it takes to see how it works as intended. If you have problems and contact the people that designed and built it, they will know exactly what you are working with, if you don’t alter it before hand. More importantly you will know from first hand experience if any change from the factory configuration you make, is an improvement or not. If you “fix” something you have never used, you won’t know if you made it better or worse.

Think of progressive as doing one thing after another (because that is what you are doing), to the point all are completed at once.

So, set station #1 up. Once all is right on #1, move on to #2, then #3, and so on. It would be unsound reasoning to think you can repair unacceptable results from a previous operation, in subsequent steps.

If you can’t seat a primer correctly, there is very little reason to move on. A fail at #2 but making something after that better, doesn’t make the end product work as that goal has already been lost. Focus on the issue at hand and solve it first, after that you can address other issues that may or may not pop up.

I have tried all sorts of stuff because I enjoy learning something I didn’t know. MANY of the folklore “upgrades” on the 650 might be beneficial for a or a few specific conditions but are not “game changers”.

Chopped up springs, bearings made from different materials etc, are sold from a number of places. If you want you can try them all yourself but a thrust washer and two flat shims will beat them all.

On the 650 the Timken 815-NTA is the one you would use and is less than $2.
https://www.zoro.com/tritan-needle-thrust-brg-bore-0500in-18300-rpm-nta815/i/G0317759/feature-product?utm_source=google&utm_medium=surfaces&utm_campaign=shopping feed&utm_content=free google shopping clicks&gclid=Cj0KCQiAmpyRBhC-ARIsABs2EApprY2ygJMhtEXVxNLN3iOY7TLJBE0wI7hZQY4ZLkHUggcYNd3XbNUaAvP0EALw_wcB



As far as 650 modifications go, the thrust bearing can be beneficial and the 3D printed primer system “switch” is nice.



I would put both well above ball/spring alterations under the shell plate.
Click to expand...

Super awesome! Thx!
 
jmorris said:
The primer is going to be in contact with the brass upon its entire circumference as will the rim of the cup and anvil.

They will be seated to a depth where they certainly won’t be proud of the base of the case and seating flush with the base of the case may not be deep enough.

For example, this primer will be going off when struck because the primer is seated all the way to the bottom of the pocket. Note that it is below flush of the base of the case. Not only can you feel this, in this case (pun intended) one can clearly see it’s also below flush.

View attachment 1064539

What do your seated primers look like?
Click to expand...
You are correct! The softies all have a proud primer. So, Help my aged brain. Why would this make a difference? The analogy I think of is basball. If the bat, aka, the FP does not get a full swing, you bunt and not a homerun? There
was a post that a guy at the range was hitting 8" [?] targets and blaming it on the progressive press. We shoot range brass and any bullet we can get our hands on. Berry's, our own castings. Doesn't matter. These are the kinds of targets we get. Standing 25" I guess it's good to have something to blame other than one's skill level.

targets primers 2.jpg
Targets primers.jpg
 
lordpaxman said:
And unloading.
I might have missed it but would like to know what gun the OP’s having the most issue with. I’ve “unloaded” a lot of reloaded 9mm and been at matches where a lot has been fired with mixed HS range brass loaded on all kinds of presses, and for the most part the only reason primers FTF is a gun malfunction. There is always the possibility of a bad batch of primers, but even that seems to be miniscule.
Click to expand...
Good and fair question. We were chating that sentiment this moring over coffee. We think the H&K VP9 Pro. Might be the most finicky. The Walther PPQ Match and the enhanced Canik seem to do a bit better. The Satccato 2011 is a bit better. The older 92fs seems the best workhouse, The others are about the same.
 
8Ball_99 said:
I've loaded more rounds on my Dillon 650 then I care to count. I've had to replace a few parts and I've done most of the upgrades mentioned in this thread. I don't think it's a problem with the press design. Primers not going off is either bad primers, not seated primers or your brass is out of spec. Assuming it's not the firearm of course. The only one of those that has to do with the press is primers not seated. You control that though. Like others mentioned the press itself has more then enough travel for any primer pocket.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I guess that's what I'm trying to find out. Thx.
 
EricBu said:
If you are officially approving a Hi-Jack of your thread, the "jump" issue. I did the bearing kit for mine. This was because loading 32 ACP literally drove me insane with that jump. When you are using 2.1 grains of powder, and 1.5 of them spill out...you want to tear your hair out. The bearing kit worked so good, I use it for everything on both my 750s now. Also has the benefit of eliminating all play in the shell plate as well as getting rid of the jump, and makes the entire press much smoother. Very worthwhile add on IMHO. If you search for this name:

Hit Factor Shooting Supply, LLC Shellplate Bearing Kit for Dillon XL650 / XL750
Click to expand...
Anything I learn is a good thing. AND! Thanks to you! My Wife is at this time ordering the kit named above! Thanks! BTW, Dillion never seems to think they have an issue with the 650. They just decided to make the 750 and flush the 650.... Because of all the issues with it! AND! iF YOU BUY ALL PARTS TO MAKE A 750, IT WILL COST YOU AS MUCH AS BUYING A 750. Hat's off to you big BLUE!
 
gun'sRgood said:
You are correct! The softies all have a proud primer. So, Help my aged brain. Why would this make a difference?
Click to expand...

The impact on the primer is reduced because there is nothing to back it up.

You want the primer and anvil seated solid up against the brass case. Try and spilt wood on a mattress vs on something solid, that’s the concept. If your a cook, try and chop the vegetables a few inches off the top of the cutting board, does that make your normally fine knife, less effective as a cutting tool?
 
gun'sRgood said:
Mixed. From years ago to when they stated the "where the heck did all the ammo go?" crisis. CCI, Winchester, Mag's. and others.
Click to expand...
Using mixed primers will always complicate consistent seating and diagnosing issues which occur. While SPP are nominally the same dimensions, there are variations which cause the “feel” of seating them fully to differ
 
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