Disliking on-line gun sales

[JSH1]

Have sold and traded online before....

Sheesh. Am I being too paranoid, restrictive, or stringent?

No, you are not being too restrictive, I do the same. Some people won't buy from you because you want paperwork and some people would not buy from you if you do not require paperwork. I will not buy from or sell to a person that won't do a bill of sale with name and address verified by looking at an ID. It will need to be an in-state ID as well. As others have said, just put your paperwork requirements in your ad.

I went to my first gun show yesterday and there were some shady characters there. Like the guy going from table to table asking if they require paperwork. There was another guy that wouldn't even show an ID to prove he was in-state as required by the gun show. The seller did the right thing and refused to sell to him.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

I would not let you have a copy of my ID..... I would show it however, just no copy.

I would not have sold to the out of state guy, scheme either.

I prefer selling FTF at known "GUN" venues, like gun shows or gun shops. Bottom line is, if I'm not comfortable, no sale.

 

[HexHead]

You were right with the first buyer only.

If I'm selling FTF, I'll ask to see a DL, and they can put their thumb over name/address, so I cam match pic to face that they live in my state. I'll ask if they're legally permitted to buy a gun. If they say yes, they hand me money, I hand them gun and we're done. I've done my due diligence

I won't do ANY differently as a buyer. There are plenty of guns in my safe I've filled out 4473s for. And there are some I want no paper trail of. Yeah, I trust our government.

 

[Onward Allusion]

YES. Online sales can be a challenge for the Seller. The overwhelming majority of online gun buyers are newbies who don't know the in's and out's of the process. Even some of the folks on this forum have no clue. I've had hundreds of transactions on Gunbroker and I always cringe when I have someone who is not rated bid or worst, win the auction. Of course, that's not to say that there aren't bad sellers online as well. I also stay away from them, too.

Stating your terms-and-conditions in your auction does little to get your commission charges back in a timely basis if you have an uninformed or unscrupulous auction bidder. The whole Gunbroker and Gunauction process leaves much to be desired. You end up getting charged for the commission and listing fees and then end up waiting a couple of months to have your account credited the amounts. Of course, the big boys are the only games in town for firearm related auctions...

 

[gym]

If you could have seen the guys license or CCW, that would have been sufficient. I don't sign anything that isn't necessary. But it's your gun, legally in my state if he shows me ID and says he isn't restricted, it's a go.

 

[Starz26]

Taking this up a notch, this is a disclaimer sent to me when trying to complete a private purchase of ammo. I told him to go pound sand.

I have no issue signing a statement of fact (i.e. I am over 21, I can own this in my state) but under no circumstances will I sign a document saying what I will or will not do in the future. The seller stated he wanted protection against what I may or may not do with the ammo (irrelevant) but what is to say they did not tamper with it to cause me injury (just as crazy but plausible)....

I, CERTIFY THAT I HAVE READ, UNDERSTAND AND AGREE TO SALES CONDITIONS AND LIABILITY RELEASE AS STATED HEREIN. I FULLY UNDERSTAND THAT MERCHANDISE ORDERED MAY BE DANGEROUS TO USE OR STORE AND I UNDERSTAND THE NATURE, SAFETY PRECAUTIONS, CHARACTERISTICS AND RISKS TO HEALTH, OF STORAGE, USE OR OTHER AND PERSONAL CONTROL. I WILL KEEP ALL MERCHANDISE COMPLETELY UNDER MY CONTROL; I WILL USE AND/OR STORE ALL MERCHANDISES OUT OF THE REACH OF CHILDREN AND IN FULL COMPLIANCE WITH LOCAL, STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS. I FULLY, WITHOUT RESERVATION OR CONDITION, AGREE TO ABSOLVE AND HOLD HARMLESS AND INDEMNIFY (Name removed). I FURTHERMORE AGREE TO RE-IMBURSE (Name removed) FOR ANY AND ALL COST, FEES OR EXPENSES IN DEFENSE OF ANY CLAIMS OR JUDGEMENTS THAT MAY ARISE AS A RESULT FROM THE PURCHASE, TRANSPORTATION, HANDLING, POSSESSION, STORAGE, SALE/RESALE AND/OR USE OF MERCHANDISE ORDERED.I AGREE THAT ALL TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF THIS STATEMENT AND SALE APPLY EQUALLY TO ALL PURCHASES, PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE . I HAVE READ, UNDERSTAND AND AGREE FULLY, WITHOUT RESERVATION OR CONDITION LISTED HEREIN. This Contract is for the sale of (Name and product removed). Please print this out and sign/ date it as well as print your name at the bottom of this page.Thank You

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

I don't generally like doing a bill of sales either... Id prefer not to... I let folks see mu license because that is a requirement in my state. They must be a res. of TX. So they can see.. but not record. Ill be honest I've done some transfers where not much more than a hello was said. Nevermind ID's and BOS. On the other hand I bought 5 guns off of a fellow in Chorpus Christie for a STEAL and that was enough motivation for me to let him photocopy my ID, He gave me a copy of his too... so were even

 

[danez71]

Actual Case #2: Deceased victim and the gun used in the homicide is found nearby. The gun is traced to the last registered owner. The owner advises he believes that he legally sold the gun to an individual he could not positively identify. We have no other leads and we focused in on him. There was an ensuing background check, verification of his alibi (which was shaky) and an area canvass of neighbors and friends. It turned out to be a waste of time for us and an inconvenience and mild embarrassment for him.

Bingo.

That's my fear. I go camping (very very few witnesses) and someone gets murdered. Sketchy alibi for sure.

Mild embarrassment? You could lose your job if the police come snooping around asking questions and divulging why they're there.


While not perfect, a BOS will do more good than harm for me. I don't see the harm in glancing at ID to make sure the name, face, age, and state are OK.

 

[jj1962hemi]

In the PR of Illinois, one must see a state issued ID card, and log the ID#, name, gun serial #, ETC.,...and keep the records for ten years. This applies to anybody engaged in a "transfer." I take that to mean a buyer or seller.

 

[kimbershot]

well, i am not a fan of face to face transactions--i would never have a stranger come into my house to purchase a firearm. i am also not interested in traveling/meeting to make a sale.

i prefer to sell via gunbroker or a consignment as it also takes me out of a potential legal liability situation.

trying to save/make a couple of extra bucks just isn't worth it.

 

[rgwalt]

I do not require a bill of sale, but I will fill one out if asked minus my address. I will show my CHL, but will ask the other party to do the same, and I tend to only sell to CHL holders if at all possible. I arrange all of my deals through email, so I generally have a name and phone number for everyone I've ever bought from or sold to. With a name, phone number, and date, the police can extract all the info they need to find the person.

The BOS can protect both buyer and seller in the cases mentioned by the previous poster. So, I see why they are useful. As a seller, I would hate to end up as a murder suspect. However, under investigation, it would be tough to produce a relationship/motive for me to kill someone where the only real life link is through someone I sold a gun to. A BOS would circumvent the need to be investigated though.

I wonder about the first case (DUI with a stolen gun). He was charged with possession of stolen property. If he had the paperwork showing who he bought the gun from, would that have changed the ultimate charge? Let us say that he bought it from someone on Armslist, and did not knowingly buy stolen property. Does that change the fact that he was in possession of it? Not sure how the letter of the law is written & interpreted in that case. However, if simply possession of stolen property without knowledge is a crime, then I bet the state would have gone after him... it is a slam dunk case to make a prosecutor's numbers look better, and a great charge to tack on to a DUI.

OP: I don't think you are being too paranoid. However, state upfront in the ad that you require a BOS. Know that you are going to exclude some potential buyers.

 

[skimbell]

...Am I being too paranoid...?

Nope.

 

[Chevelle SS]

If I buy a gun I'll sign a bill of sale or SHOW my ID but I won't let them copy down my address etc. If I'm selling a gun I just ask to see ID, nothing beyond that.

 

[CatManDo]

QUOTE:

"I went to my first gun show yesterday and there were some shady characters there. Like the guy going from table to table asking if they require paperwork. There was another guy that wouldn't even show an ID to prove he was in-state as required by the gun show. The seller did the right thing and refused to sell to him."

That was probably just the ATF moron trying to capture a bad gun seller, or, the local news reporter trying to do a "Giffords" on the sellers.

 

[tahoe2]

private gun sales

ID-shooting; I have always exchanged ID# and bill of sale (gun serial #) with the other party in a gun sale, period.
That's just me, CYA (cover your a#*!) and those I've dealt with, no worries and everyone satisfied with the results.
It's your transaction you should feel comfortable with it.

 

[clg114]

I can understand how one would want a paper trail for a gun, just in case the police come knocking on your door with questions about that gun. I can also understand how you might not want to give personal information to just anyone. It would not be a good thing to have it be common knowledge that you have a house full of guns. Then there's always your personal responsibility to do what you can to keep your gun out of the hands of people who should not have them. On the rare occasions that I want to sell a gun, I take them to one of the local online auctions. They have a FFL and will do the background check. While have bought guns from a private party, I usually buy from a FFL dealer. I know this isn't foolproof, I'm just trying to steer clear of trouble.

 

[TennJed]

Me: Former uniform patrol officer.

Actual Case #1: Subject, who had a CHL, is arrested for DUI and subsequent pat down produced a stolen firearm. He advised that he bought it from an individual he that could not positively identify. The gun was traced to the owner from whom it was stolen and no one else. The subject was also charged felony possession of stolen property and it stuck.


Me: Former homicide investigator.

Actual Case #2: Deceased victim and the gun used in the homicide is found nearby. The gun is traced to the last registered owner. The owner advises he believes that he legally sold the gun to an individual he could not positively identify. We have no other leads and we focused in on him. There was an ensuing background check, verification of his alibi (which was shaky) and an area canvass of neighbors and friends. It turned out to be a waste of time for us and an inconvenience and mild embarrassment for him.

I would argue the point that it does have a purpose to extract this information. Both the buyer and seller should trade information without photocopying. I do this with the understanding that both may cover up his address and date of birth on the acceptable documents. Buyer is also advised ahead of time that if he does not look of age the date of birth must be exposed. Both the buyer and seller are protected.

Thanks for the post. I haven't been recording info on FTT transactions but I might now. Also this goes to show the people here who say it serves no purpose but to feel good are wrong

 

[burrhead]

I posted this when we had this same discussion last week.I don't understand this need to create a paper trail when buying or selling a weapon. I've been buying and selling and trading guns for nearly forty years. I’ve only bought three new guns in my life and everything else has been private sales, ie, no paperwork. Bill of sale, ID check, etc is really much ado about not much.

Your milage obviously varies.

 

[Liberty1776]

2 things - Starz26 - I agree with you. I would not complete the sale.

OP - for a handgun I require to see photo id and state purchase permit or ccw card which functions as a purchase permit too. (I don't require signing paperwork though.) I don't feel it's necessary on a long gun, but then I don't sell many.

 

[AKElroy]

I ask to see ID now. This expectation is set at the first communication from any potential buyer saying I'll take it. I've had a FTF encounter that was very disturbing and dangerous, and I will be more cautious to eliminate meeting anyone FTF that has an issue with me recording who they are as a result of that experience. I know this tics some folks off, and the overwhelming majority are simply good folks trying to protect their privacy. Heck, I'm one of them, and will likely shy away from any seller requiring of me what I will require of a buyer. Yep, I'm a hypocrite. But I have that right, and if folks are clearly notified they can choose whether to do business with me.

 

[huntsman]

It is for the liability .

Are you an attorney or have you run this past an attorney for conformation?

ID theft is enough of a reason why I wouldn't risk letting anybody copy my info, I would sign a bill-of sale as long as you sign a paper that you can legally sell the gun.

 

[Beentown]

On line sales are my favorite choice for selling. Ship to FFL and paper trail is done.

Even if I plan to sell locally I list the item online. Need proof you were engaging in selling the firearm? Look up the listing and show the LEO. If you have a 5 y/o archived thread you stating SOLD....again there is your paper trail.

A BOS really does nothing.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

If these things concern you, then put them up front on the web page for your gun. The conditions and terms of sale/purchase should be no surprise to anybody who may be interested.

If I am interested in your gun but the posted conditions and terms do not meet my situation, then I'll simply sigh and move on without wasting either of our valuable time.

 

[AKElroy]

If these things concern you, then put them up front on the web page for your gun. The conditions and terms of sale/purchase should be no surprise to anybody who may be interested.

If I am interested in your gun but the posted conditions and terms do not meet my situation, then I'll simply sigh and move on without wasting either of our valuable time.

I agree in principle, but in practice the sell thread invariably turns into a debate on the requirement rather than what I'm selling. It is not a big deal to have someone pm an offer, and get a response with the requirement. I know it is a bit frustrating, but less so than having a dozen PM's sermonizing on the I'd requirement, along with the hijacked thread.

 

[AKElroy]

I have had several FTF deals that went very smoothly, with extremely nice folks to deal with. But a few years back, I agreed to meet a gentleman at an eatery about 100 miles east of my home. When I arrived, it was dark, and the diner that I assumed was open 24 hours was closed, the parking lot dark, and my wife and I were completely alone. Seriously bad planning on my part.

The only car that drives up is NOT the car the buyer claimed he would be driving, and rather than being alone, he had FOUR banger-type buddies hanging out the windows. Not teenagers, but painted up mid twenties bangers, all staring me down while the buyer comes forward with the cash. I went forward with the sale, but frankly it was more about not causing a confrontation that I would have lost. It was scary as hell. I think had the wife not been with me, that could have ended badly. I think her being behind the wheel while i met with the buyer added a wrinkle they didn't want to deal with. Had those guys decided to take the WASR I was selling and hang on to the cash, or worse, I would have been powerless to stop them. From now on, I need more of a comfort level Before I meet a stranger to sell a gun. If the ID requirement runs them off, oh well......

Of course, the whole thing cold have been completely innocent with only my paranoia running amuck.