Distance

[Good Ol' Boy]

This thread is inspired by the "Combat Distance" thread.

It is intended for hand gun training mainly. Up until recently I trained at 30ish feet or less. Today I spent the whole time shooting mostly the max my range would allow, 25yds. It was very humbling to say the least. I will be practicing at this distance much more regularly.

Although most encounters are bound to be much closer than 25yds I agree with the idea that "if you can shoot at a distance it makes shooting up close seem like cheating". That makes good sense to me.

Anyway, what distances do you normally practice at with your pistol?


I've worked up the courage to post a pic of my best of the day at 25yds with hopes that I won't get laughed off the forum. Keep in mind this is maybe the second or third time I've shot that far, and it's been a while.


Started center mass and worked my way up to the head. Shots were consecutive, with maybe 1-2 seconds between, not "slow shots".

 

[RX-79G]

I generally practice at 25 yards, shooting as quickly as I am able and still producing smallish groups (>5").

When I shoot IDPA I don't have any trouble shooting much faster at close targets. While I sometimes have wild misses, my groups shooting DA/SA guns in IDPA are generally tight. It seems like I end up needing to have conversations about lost holes because the 6 shots will often touch and look like only 5.

So I think I'm doing something right.



I also bench rest shoot a bit at 25m. I think it helps, and teaches the skills for long shots.

 

[JohnKSa]

I'd say that the bulk of my handgun shooting is at about 15 yards. I try to do some work at 25 yards during each range trip.

 

[taliv]

indoors, usually trying to hold the A zone and keep sub .20 splits at 10 yards, but i'll do a couple at 3, 5, 7 for no good reason. last week, I pushed it out to 15 yards.

outdoors, I'm always moving so it varies, but mostly 8x10" plates at 10-30 yards. hammers on the closer ones, controlled pairs on the far ones

 

[strambo]

"if you can shoot at a distance it makes shooting up close seem like cheating".

Since we are in the "Strategies, Tactics and Training" sub-forum with a presumed personal protection reason for training, I disagree.

Yes, from a raw square range marksmanship perspective, if you can shoot decent groups at 25yds (say 6"-8" or so centered on your POA), then shooting small groups at 3-10 would seem easy.

The problem is that actual combat marksmanship and gun-fighting needs are a lot different than shooting paper on a range. The majority of gunfights happen in the 7 FOOT range. Yes, hitting a bullseye is easy. However, drawing while moving under life or death pressure while trying to hit a moving person trying to kill you, perhaps in low light, perhaps with a small gun with small sights, is a totally different problem that requires training via different methods (including, but going well beyond, raw marksmanship).

You should practice longer range shots, but it should not be the majority of your practice if you are training for personal protection.

As to your target, I would say that 25yds is too far for you to practice right now. Your shots aren't close enough to diagnose the issues. Probably trigger squeeze and/or anticipating the shot.

Bring it back in, even to 3-7yds and really dial in your grip, stance, and trigger press. Then move it back out on occasion.

Ironically, something like the "Venti 100" drill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi5eZqc9H7I which is done at only 3yds (muzzle only 6ft from the target!) would really help your distance shooting a lot. It isn't so much about the distance as the fundamentals.

Edit: Great target you have. I'm a big fan of targets that show anatomy (that can't be seen at shooting distances) that are also armed. As an anatomical note, the first shots weren't "center mass" but "center-chest" (which is what we want, center mass would be too low). The orange dot you placed on the head is way too high, that is the thickest part of the skull where the bullet could glance off and also not where the brain centers are that control autonomic functions.

See the rounded shape below the eyes? That represents the mid-brain, PONs and cerebellum. That is where you want the hits to go. Draw a triangle from the eyes with the point at the top of the upper lip. On an actual face, I just aim for the tip of the nose or the nose in general.

 

[patmccoy]

Lots of good advice from Strambo. One other thing that can help, if you are having problems at longer ranges, is to do occasional one handed shooting at 5-7 yards. You should easily keep everything on a paper plate at that range, and eventually much better. Then go back to two handed, and you'll find it much easier.

 

[bubba in ca]

I do most of my handgun practice at 10 feet, probably a little long for most actual sd/hd. It is not necessarily "easier" than 25 yards ranges because when the target is that close, you feel the pressure, you speed up, and you point shoot. A whole different world than target shooting.

I do some shooting at 10 yards, although I am not happy with the results with my snubby and pocket pistols. With a full sized pistol I would do better, but since I don't carry full size pistols it doesn't matter. I am not fighting somebody else's war, I am protection me and mine in my home and my immediate space. Shooting handguns at 25 meters is more ego massage than civilian self defense.

With my HD shotgun, I practice at 10 feet and 20 feet only. I suppose if I were going camping or something with this gun it would be good to get in some practice at longer distances.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Since we are in the "Strategies, Tactics and Training" sub-forum with a presumed personal protection reason for training, I disagree.

Yes, from a raw square range marksmanship perspective, if you can shoot decent groups at 25yds (say 6"-8" or so centered on your POA), then shooting small groups at 3-10 would seem easy.

The problem is that actual combat marksmanship and gun-fighting needs are a lot different than shooting paper on a range. The majority of gunfights happen in the 7 FOOT range. Yes, hitting a bullseye is easy. However, drawing while moving under life or death pressure while trying to hit a moving person trying to kill you, perhaps in low light, perhaps with a small gun with small sights, is a totally different problem that requires training via different methods (including, but going well beyond, raw marksmanship).

You should practice longer range shots, but it should not be the majority of your practice if you are training for personal protection.

As to your target, I would say that 25yds is too far for you to practice right now. Your shots aren't close enough to diagnose the issues. Probably trigger squeeze and/or anticipating the shot.

Bring it back in, even to 3-7yds and really dial in your grip, stance, and trigger press. Then move it back out on occasion.

Ironically, something like the "Venti 100" drill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi5eZqc9H7I which is done at only 3yds (muzzle only 6ft from the target!) would really help your distance shooting a lot. It isn't so much about the distance as the fundamentals.

Edit: Great target you have. I'm a big fan of targets that show anatomy (that can't be seen at shooting distances) that are also armed. As an anatomical note, the first shots weren't "center mass" but "center-chest" (which is what we want, center mass would be too low). The orange dot you placed on the head is way too high, that is the thickest part of the skull where the bullet could glance off and also not where the brain centers are that control autonomic functions.

See the rounded shape below the eyes? That represents the mid-brain, PONs and cerebellum. That is where you want the hits to go. Draw a triangle from the eyes with the point at the top of the upper lip. On an actual face, I just aim for the tip of the nose or the nose in general.

I appreciate the response and that's a great post.

Don't take this the wrong way but I feel as if your post was geared towards someone new to shooting, which I am not. I mentioned I normally practice at 30ft or less. I can normally get 5-6" groups at that distance (25-30ft), and better at less distance.

So for someone who can shoot "decent" at closer distances but is "new" to longer distances what would your advice be?



I would appreciate any advice but don't want to stray too far off topic, which is what all of YOU normally practice at distance wise. So far the responses have been a little surprising after reading the "Combat Distances" thread.

 

[bubba in ca]

If I were training somebody (maybe my grandson in about 5 years) for sd/hd I would probably advocate something like:

80% --shooting at 10 feet quickly, including using eye jabs, etc. as necessary to buy time to draw, getting off the X, point shooting, etc.

20%--shooting with aimed fire at 10 to 20 yards.

You never know what might happen, but most defensive shooting is done at very close range on very short notice. You just have to couple that with having the ability to use you weapon to the fullest if you should somehow get a long shot.

Oh, I forgot to mention that handgun shooting is done in bursts of 3. The bullets just don't have the stopping power even if you make good hits. Another example of how you have to unlearn the bad things you learned at the 25 meter.pistol range.

 

[strambo]

I appreciate the response and that's a great post.

Don't take this the wrong way but I feel as if your post was geared towards someone new to shooting, which I am not. I mentioned I normally practice at 30ft or less. I can normally get 5-6" groups at that distance (25-30ft), and better at less distance.

So for someone who can shoot "decent" at closer distances but is "new" to longer distances what would your advice be?

Same advice, I was looking at your 25yd target objectively w/o knowing anything about your shooting experience. The best way for an instructor to diagnose shooting errors is by watching the shooter, not the target, so I also don't have the best info to go by.

The shots are not close enough for a diagnosis, but something in your grip and/or trigger control and/or anticipation of recoil is a failure point. It is almost never sight picture because our minds usually won't let us break a shot when the sights are way off.

Accept your wobble and press the trigger straight to the rear when the sights are "good enough".

I'd do the Venti 100 drill, then maybe shoot a group at 25yds again to see if they are w/in 8" or so and/or see if you can now detect the problem.

Another approach would be to set your acceptable group/target size, say like an 8" paper plate. Shoot that at progressively further distances until you start missing. Now, work at that distance (working on grip and trigger press) until you keep them all in. Move it back until you miss again, repeat.

The majority of my practice is at 2-7yds working single and multiple realistic paper targets and multiple clothed 3D targets. At 5yds and in, I'm probably point shooting and almost always moving, sometimes at a run. I start the session out with some raw marksmanship work before going to the more realistic drills. I do a little bit at 10-15yds+ and a little at contact range (to include striking) with H2H training blurring the lines from the other direction where I have a dummy gun in my carry holster and work it into the H2H session.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Same advice, I was looking at your 25yd target objectively w/o knowing anything about your shooting experience. The best way for an instructor to diagnose shooting errors is by watching the shooter, not the target, so I also don't have the best info to go by.

The shots are not close enough for a diagnosis, but something in your grip and/or trigger control and/or anticipation of recoil is a failure point. It is almost never sight picture because our minds usually won't let us break a shot when the sights are way off.

Accept your wobble and press the trigger straight to the rear when the sights are "good enough".

I'd do the Venti 100 drill, then maybe shoot a group at 25yds again to see if they are w/in 8" or so and/or see if you can now detect the problem.

Another approach would be to set your acceptable group/target size, say like an 8" paper plate. Shoot that at progressively further distances until you start missing. Now, work at that distance (working on grip and trigger press) until you keep them all in. Move it back until you miss again, repeat.

The majority of my practice is at 2-7yds working single and multiple realistic paper targets and multiple clothed 3D targets. At 5yds and in, I'm probably point shooting and almost always moving, sometimes at a run. I start the session out with some raw marksmanship work before going to the more realistic drills. I do a little bit at 10-15yds+ and a little at contact range (to include striking) with H2H training blurring the lines from the other direction where I have a dummy gun in my carry holster and work it into the H2H session.

Thank you for the helpful info and not belittling me.

On the "what's wrong" issue, I feel like my grip, stance and trigger control are pretty good for the distances I normally shoot at. On the sight picture issue you mentioned that is normally not an issue for most, when shooting at 25yrds I had trouble with that.

I normally shoot my regular distances, again 30ft or less, with both eyes open using my dominate (left) eye. At 25yds using that technique I felt I had trouble. The target I posted was a combination of three mags with only a few rounds in each. I switched from initially using both eyes open dominate eye focused, to right eye closed, to left eye closed.

Do you think that could've played role?

 

[strambo]

Thank you for the helpful info and not belittling me.

Never!

I normally shoot my regular distances, again 30ft or less, with both eyes open using my dominate (left) eye. At 25yds using that technique I felt I had trouble. The target I posted was a combination of three mags with only a few rounds in each. I switched from initially using both eyes open dominate eye focused, to right eye closed, to left eye closed.

Do you think that could've played role?

No, that may make some difference, but not major.

Actually, your results are predictable and roughly in line with the geometric dispersion expected. If you are shooting 6" groups at 10yds, that equates to 15" at 25. Slap a ruler on that target and it should be pretty close.

When you shoot a 6" group at 10yds, how fast are you shooting? Estimating or on a timer?

*****

Let's talk about a hypothetical shooter: This shooter is above average (but not a pro), has professional training, practices, maybe competes a bit. They have solid fundamentals in terms of grip, stance, and trigger control.

They also would shoot a 6" group at 7yds. However, they would shoot it about as fast as they can pull the trigger, say .2-.25 splits. That is 5 shots in 6" in 1 to 1.25 seconds. It takes solid fundamentals to run that fast and keep them in there.

Now, if the same shooter shot at 25yds at the same, or even close to the same, pace, I'd expect to see ~18" on the target, basically a shotgun pattern.

OTOH, if this shooter were to take their time at 7yds, say .5-.75s per shot, I'd expect a 2"-3" group from them. Extrapolate that to 25yds at .75s-1s per and we'd probably get around 8" or better.

*****

If you want to take a video I'd be happy to help you out. I'm not a full-time instructor, but have some certs. and experience. Have someone film you shooting from the side on the left so I can see your stance, grip and trigger finger. You can post it on youtube with a meaningless name like Y%YTQT&UY so it won't be found, disable comments, and PM me the link. No one else will see it (if you don't want them to), then you can take it down.

 

[taliv]

the film recommendation is a good one. i film myself shooting regularly, so i can spot any bad habits that may not be showing up on paper yet. and also so i know what it looks like. i.e. i know what it feels like when i'm holding the gun, and when i watch it on video from the side, then when i look at someone else shooting, i can usually spot the little tells to see what they're doing right and wrong.

 

[mavracer]

It is almost never sight picture because our minds usually won't let us break a shot when the sights are way off.

I disagree, having the ability to get a proper sight picture (sights in focus and aligned) is the biggest difference between shooters that do well past 10 or 15 yards and ones that "fall apart" at 25 yards.

 

[shafter]

To the OP, if you have a double action revolver I'd suggest lots of dry fire work. You can do it while watching tv or whenever. Pick a tiny spot somewhere on the wall and practice perfecting your trigger squeeze and breathing. You can do it with any of your handguns but I find that the long relatively heavy pull of a revolver trigger makes shooting an automatic seem easier.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Never!



No, that may make some difference, but not major.

Actually, your results are predictable and roughly in line with the geometric dispersion expected. If you are shooting 6" groups at 10yds, that equates to 15" at 25. Slap a ruler on that target and it should be pretty close.

When you shoot a 6" group at 10yds, how fast are you shooting? Estimating or on a timer?

*****

Let's talk about a hypothetical shooter: This shooter is above average (but not a pro), has professional training, practices, maybe competes a bit. They have solid fundamentals in terms of grip, stance, and trigger control.

They also would shoot a 6" group at 7yds. However, they would shoot it about as fast as they can pull the trigger, say .2-.25 splits. That is 5 shots in 6" in 1 to 1.25 seconds. It takes solid fundamentals to run that fast and keep them in there.

Now, if the same shooter shot at 25yds at the same, or even close to the same, pace, I'd expect to see ~18" on the target, basically a shotgun pattern.

OTOH, if this shooter were to take their time at 7yds, say .5-.75s per shot, I'd expect a 2"-3" group from them. Extrapolate that to 25yds at .75s-1s per and we'd probably get around 8" or better.

*****

If you want to take a video I'd be happy to help you out. I'm not a full-time instructor, but have some certs. and experience. Have someone film you shooting from the side on the left so I can see your stance, grip and trigger finger. You can post it on youtube with a meaningless name like Y%YTQT&UY so it won't be found, disable comments, and PM me the link. No one else will see it (if you don't want them to), then you can take it down.

6" groups at 10yrds probably 2-3 seconds in between. At least that's what it seems like to me. So yeah, estimating.

I like the video idea and appreciate your offer but I usually go to the range alone. I don't know if I'd feel comfortable asking another shooter to record me although that should seem perfectly reasonable. And I would sure hope that a RSO would not accept that task as they have more pressing things to keep their attention on. But, if I can manage to make a video happen I'll send you a PM with a link.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I disagree, having the ability to get a proper sight picture (sights in focus and aligned) is the biggest difference between shooters that do well past 10 or 15 yards and ones that "fall apart" at 25 yards.

That was my thought as well.

In the posted target shown I start with both eyes open using my dominate (left) eye aiming at center mass. Obviously you see how far off the first few shots were. I was having trouble focusing.

Then switched to left eye closed as I made my way towards the chest. Those shots to me look to be the best of the bunch.

Then switched to right eye closed going for the head. A few strays there too.


Like I said I haven't shot at that distance hardly at all so I was trying a couple different sighting techniques since my normal one didn't seem to be working.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

To the OP, if you have a double action revolver I'd suggest lots of dry fire work. You can do it while watching tv or whenever. Pick a tiny spot somewhere on the wall and practice perfecting your trigger squeeze and breathing. You can do it with any of your handguns but I find that the long relatively heavy pull of a revolver trigger makes shooting an automatic seem easier.

No revolvers but I normally do a couple hours a week of dry firing. Have been for a while.

 

[strambo]

The revolver suggestion is a good one. Switching to a P226 as my primary made me a way better shooter. I practice a lot of DA shots. SA feels like cheating!

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

The revolver suggestion is a good one. Switching to a P226 as my primary made me a way better shooter. I practice a lot of DA shots. SA feels like cheating!

I get that logic but I just feel much more comfortable with SA. And between the amount of dry firing and range time I see every week I personally don't think trigger pull is an issue. I may very well be flinching on occasion or something else. But a smooth "surprising" pull is one thing I don't feel is a problem.

At this point I'm not going to buy a DA anything in hopes to relearn something I already feel comfortable with.

 

[strambo]

No, I wouldn't buy one if you don't have one. If you were willing to do that, spending the cost of a decent revolver on a training course instead would make more sense.

 

[mavracer]

And between the amount of dry firing and range time I see every week I personally don't think trigger pull is an issue. I may very well be flinching on occasion or something else. But a smooth "surprising" pull is one thing I don't feel is a problem.

It won't help if you're practicing bad habits.
A surprise break wont help if you're not "following through" when you dry fire the gun should remain still after the break.
The easiest and most visual training aid I've found is a cheap laser pointer use a sponge and some rubber bands to hold it to the gun and when you dry fire hold it on a dot on the wall or something.
As for sight picture if you want to shoot well at 25 yards the sights must be aligned perfect that means you need to have them in focus so that you can see that the gaps on either side of the front sight are even and the tops of the front and rear sight are in a straight line.

 

[mavracer]

Oh, I forgot to mention that handgun shooting is done in bursts of 3. The bullets just don't have the stopping power even if you make good hits. Another example of how you have to unlearn the bad things you learned at the 25 meter.pistol range.

If you actually learn the fundamentals of marksmanship speeding up is the easy part.

 

[Hangingrock]

I've seldom seen in forty plus years of handgun shooting individuals use the 50Yd line at different shooting venues that I was a member of. The 25Yd used more so than the 50Yd line. The overwhelming usage was at 7Yds and less.

What was referred to by generic terminology "Combat Shooting" was frowned upon because of safety and liability concerns by the officials of those organizations.

I am currently a land share owner at a shooting venue which means I own a percentage of the land that the outdoor shooting facility is located on which has a membership of 700 plus members with the majority being yearly dues paying members.

This is an outdoor facility with different ranges for rifle and (X) number of shooting bays for handgun usage which allow draw and shoot sequences but there are safety issues/concerns with reactive metal targets.

That said as a general observation the vast majority of handgun shooters have a preference for closer is better unless competition rules require set distances for the sequence of fire.

 

[susieqz]

here's what worked for me.
i started at 7 yards, then stayed there til i was happy with the groups.
then to 8 yards. i kept doing this to 25 yards.
then, i added 5 yards at a time to get to 50 yards.
this was not fast fire.
then, i started point shooting. i started at 1 yard, shooting charcoal lumps because of rattlers.
i then started adding 1 yard again. i'm now working at 9 yards.
i think the important thing is to use small targets. i use 4'' targets.
last time i checked, i got a 4 1/4'' group at 7 yards, shooting as fast as i could n drawing as fast as i could.
this took more than 4.000 practice rounds because point shooting is hard for me.
my big trick is to get a 22 so you can afford thousands of practice
rounds.
it took more than 8,000 rounds for me to get 2'' groups at 25 yards.
i don't have much talent for shooting but it looks like a good work ethic will do.