Distance

[Matthew Temkin]

My main reason of owning pistols is self defense so the vast majority of my practice is 0-10 feet.

 

[Joshboyfutre]

Train the the way u fight and remember that most folks go to their lowest level of training in high stress situations.

 

[old lady new shooter]

here's what worked for me.
i started at 7 yards, then stayed there til i was happy with the groups.
then to 8 yards. i kept doing this to 25 yards.
then, i added 5 yards at a time to get to 50 yards.
this was not fast fire.
then, i started point shooting. i started at 1 yard, shooting charcoal lumps because of rattlers.
i then started adding 1 yard again. i'm now working at 9 yards.
i think the important thing is to use small targets. i use 4'' targets.
last time i checked, i got a 4 1/4'' group at 7 yards, shooting as fast as i could n drawing as fast as i could.
this took more than 4.000 practice rounds because point shooting is hard for me.
my big trick is to get a 22 so you can afford thousands of practice
rounds.
it took more than 8,000 rounds for me to get 2'' groups at 25 yards.
i don't have much talent for shooting but it looks like a good work ethic will do.

Susie,

You have probably posted this in the past but I don't remember, what model is your .22 handgun?

 

[mooninpisces]

Be patient and you will eventually achieve your objective.
You are trying to develop advanced skills at shooting your
handgun.

This will not happen overnight. Your posted target is humbling.
That means that there are lessons to learn so that your next
25 yard target is better.

Remember, really good shooters understand that they learn
just as much, if not more, from their misses, than from their hits.

Excellent shooters always shoot at the longer distances,
This is because, you learn a lot when meeting this challenge.
Without that challenge, you can easily get stuck in the
"combat shooting rut".

All you ever learn from short range, "combat shooting" is to
prepare for gunfights that are NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.
This is why "combat shooters" are better at shooting their
mouths off than they are at shooting their guns.

Try to find an instructor that can train you on fundamentals.
Keep practicing.You will eventually see results.

If you dedicate yourself to this challenge, the time will
come when shooting at 50 yards is more interesting to you than
shooting at 50 feet.

 

[MislMan]

For SD practice I use 10-20-30 foot distances. I shoot Bullseye competition so I practice at 25 & 50 yards. You must consider that your combination (pistol & ammo) may not be capable of what you seek. Add in your natural wobble and distance shooting becomes challenging. Just something to think about.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Just thought I'd update this thread. I've started shooting a squared stance (previously a variation of Weaver) and worked on a couple of flinches that I noticed myself while shooting. This has helped a lot but more practice is needed.

I warm up with a target at 25ft and then everything else is 35ft or more.


These were todays best plates at 35ft and silhouette at 35ft. Aim on the silhouette was center mass working up to the head.

I did shoot a silhouette at 25yrds but then littered it with "mouse .380's" at 25ft so it's hard to tell what's what. But I was 5-6" to the left and slightly high of the center orange dot over the heart.

 

[readyeddy]

On the original post target, I counted 18 hits and 6 misses. For fast shooting at 25 yards, for a first time effort, I would say that's pretty good.

 

[Hardtarget]

Most of the time I'll set my targets at 40/50 feet. Last range trip I tried five shots at 200 yards. I've NEVER even thought of trying this...and I know why! Shooting at the 18x24" steel plate was not satisfying. At all! I hit around it but did not touch the plate. This was with a Colt Govt., 5". My wife looked at me with the "what are you doing?" side glance. Made me laugh. I plan to try this regularly. I want to hit that plate...so ten rounds every trip. Keep trying!

 

[boom boom]

Just have a couple of suggestions that might work for you. One is develop your aiming ans shooting skills with a .22 LR handgun. Second, shooting revolvers DA really does improve your accuracy in Semi Autos and even rifles. The major reason is that shooting DA in a revolver accurately requires full attention to trigger follow through despite a relatively high trigger pull (you do need a trigger pull that is smooth though and that does not stack or have other nasty habits). If you can fully control a trigger that breaks about 10-12 pounds in semi fast shooting, then you can control one that breaks at 6 or less even better.

Last, but not least, firing a snubby DA revolver accurately at distance is the most difficult due to the need to really concentrate on proper sight alignment and trigger control. If you can master a snubby at 25 yards, then you can pretty much master the trigger and sight alignment on most anything.

 

[workgun]

Distance is a skill enhancing agent.
In training for CQB engagements with a pistol (or rifle for that matter) I like dynamic (buzzword apologies) multi target, stress inducing drills. These tend to condition the shooter to the fast, accurate weapons handling. This conditioning frees up the frontal cortex for high speed/quality decision making in extremis.

Likewise, distance shooting builds wide synaptic paths to the essential motor functions required for accurate shooting. This skill (if done enough and well enough) deposits "action plans" in the amygdala for near flinch response deployment when sensors fire danger signals.

I start range days with the 25 meter bull before we move down range and start tying things together.

 

[lemaymiami]

All of my handgun shooting was done in training for and with police work.... I did a tiny bit of team shooting in the service but for 22 years all of my beginning then in-service pistol work was in that context and there's a few things we did that I don't see on the civilian side..... First off we always worked at various ranges - never just one distance... secondly we also worked strong hand/weak hand in every training (not qualifying) session to reinforce the idea that you might only have your weak hand in a crisis... Lastly, and I found this very helpful always.... When we had the luxury of additional range personnel, you'd have your own spotter/coach by your side as you went through the various distances whether in the open or behind barricades etc. Having someone watch what you're actually doing and working with you to correct faults is worth a lot in my book...

 

[Speedo66]

Our official training and requalification took place at distances from 3 yards to 25 yards. All timed, with more time for longer distances, and some requiring mag changes and weak hand shooting.

Practice slow, but start working your way up to shooting a little quicker. Not a bad idea to have some proficiency with either hand.

 

[strambo]

If you have noticed flinches, do a lot of dry-fire and mix in dummy rounds and/or empties in your magazines when shooting live. If you have a flinch, it will be obvious when the gun goes "click" and you were expecting a BANG! It also gives you random malfunctions to clear so that becomes automatic as well.

I used to have a .44 magnum and the primers I was using were stiff enough that I'd get about 1 "click" per cylinder. It was nice to get to a point shooting it where it stayed rock solid on the click. For this reason, I just kept using these stiff primers for practice ammo, it was great training. I watched a friend shoot it and on the unexpected click, he must have flinched the muzzle down 4 inches!

 

[Deaf Smith]

I practice at all distances and all speeds cause I like to shoot. Due to range limitations that's about 100 yards max.

See long time ago I decided to make shooting a serious avocation. Not a hobby but something to study and practice often. Been doing it for about 43 years. Been too many a school and competition. Shooting schools, FOF schools, schools on legal implications. Lots of IPSC, IDPA, IHMSA, Leg matches, even some NRA bullseye.

Hip shots, moving, multiple targets, weaver, isosceles, kneeling, prone, night, front sight focus, flash sight picture, in a moving car, at moving targets, etc...

Deaf

 

[167]

To the OP's question, I routinely shoot out to 25yd and on occassion 50yd+, but generally speaking the bulk of my practice is closer than that.

 

[murf]

good ol' boy,

suggest you start calling your shots (note the sight alignment when the shot breaks), and doing the "dummy" exercise that strambo suggested in post #38. also, if all your shots are going left, suggest you put a little less finger on the trigger (put the trigger between the tip and first knuckle of your trigger finger).

luck,

murf

p.s. nice shootin!

 

[harrygunner]

'strambo' gave helpful advice. Hopefully, it will show up as good news, that it's possible to be even better. I believe there's a wonderful and gratifying opportunity to improve groups at 10 yards and at 25 yards.

I worked on my shooting because I knew that whatever group size I had at the range would double in a self-defense situation. And I want to keep rounds on the bad guy, it would bother me if innocents were hit. I know I can't control everything, but I want to do my best.

I got my 10 yard shots to under 3" diameters with maybe one shot per second. Later, found an outdoor range with metal 6"W x 5"H targets at 30 yards. That whole "sight small, shoot small" idea helped me improve more.

 

[ACP]

I like to keep 50% of my pistol training under 5 feet, 25% at 5-15 feet, and 25% at 15-25 feet. Of course drawing and shooting at contact distance is totally different from drawing and shooting at 15 or 25 feet.

I carry wither a j-frame in a pocket holster or a 1911 on an OWB. One thing I have learned with the j-frame is that, with your hand on your gun in your pocket, as if you were walking through a dark parking lot, or in line at a convenience store, the draw is as fast or faster than a 1911 OWB from under a covering garment. That is the beauty of the -jframe and pocket carry. it doesn't look unnatural to have your hand in your pocket, the draw is very fast, and very surprising. .

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Another update from today's range trip. Took some of the advice and kept everything at 25ft, didn't go out any further. I feel like I'm getting better with "strays" but still need to get groups tighter.

Pictures pretty much explain everything. X's were POA. Speed was pretty brisk, 2ish sec between shots. The last target I emptied a 20rd mag I hadn't shot in a while and did it as fast as I could, rapid fire. Aim was X inside the rings.


Anyways onto the results and advice....

 

[Kleanbore]

Since we are in the "Strategies, Tactics and Training" sub-forum with a presumed personal protection reason for training, I disagree.

Yes, from a raw square range marksmanship perspective, if you can shoot decent groups at 25yds (say 6"-8" or so centered on your POA), then shooting small groups at 3-10 would seem easy.

The problem is that actual combat marksmanship and gun-fighting needs are a lot different than shooting paper on a range. The majority of gunfights happen in the 7 FOOT range. Yes, hitting a bullseye is easy. However, drawing while moving under life or death pressure while trying to hit a moving person trying to kill you, perhaps in low light, perhaps with a small gun with small sights, is a totally different problem that requires training via different methods (including, but going well beyond, raw marksmanship).

You should practice longer range shots, but it should not be the majority of your practice if you are training for personal protection.

As to your target, I would say that 25yds is too far for you to practice right now. Your shots aren't close enough to diagnose the issues. Probably trigger squeeze and/or anticipating the shot.

Bring it back in, even to 3-7yds and really dial in your grip, stance, and trigger press. Then move it back out on occasion.

Ironically, something like the "Venti 100" drill which is done at only 3yds (muzzle only 6ft from the target!) would really help your distance shooting a lot. It isn't so much about the distance as the fundamentals.

Edit: Great target you have. I'm a big fan of targets that show anatomy (that can't be seen at shooting distances) that are also armed. As an anatomical note, the first shots weren't "center mass" but "center-chest" (which is what we want, center mass would be too low). The orange dot you placed on the head is way too high, that is the thickest part of the skull where the bullet could glance off and also not where the brain centers are that control autonomic functions.

See the rounded shape below the eyes? That represents the mid-brain, PONs and cerebellum. That is where you want the hits to go. Draw a triangle from the eyes with the point at the top of the upper lip. On an actual face, I just aim for the tip of the nose or the nose in general.

This and strambo's other posts in the thread are worth reading more than once.

 

[Hangingrock]

Each month in either of the two NRA publications The American Rifleman or now Shooting Illustrated there is the Armed Citizen column. Self-defense shooting incident reports gathered from newspaper thou brief articles of individual's defending themselves, family members and or others. Over an extended period time (for me decades) a pattern emerges in regards to the incident's circumstance and self defensive proficiency of the individuals. Distance is close to contact as opposed to extended. Proficiency or the lack there of open to discussion but there is the resolve to be combative as opposed to passive.

 

[RX-79G]

Moving a target close doesn't simulate a close range shooting. It just builds false confidence because it makes your groups appear smaller.

Target shooting at longer ranges, even if you use a rather large target, is better practice because it forces you to concentrate on the front sight since the focal distance between target and gun are much larger. In a real fight your attacker is not going to be so easy to focus on as a well lit, high contrast target at 7 yards.

 

[Kleanbore]

Moving a target close doesn't simulate a close range shooting. It just builds false confidence because it makes your groups appear smaller.

Target shooting at longer ranges, even if you use a rather large target, is better practice because it forces you to concentrate on the front sight since the focal distance between target and gun are much larger. In a real fight your attacker is not going to be so easy to focus on as a well lit, high contrast target at 7 yards.

If your groups are small in simulated defensive shooting, you are not firing rapidly enough.

It may sound counterintuitive to say that shooting at longer ranges will likely not help much in close quarter encounters, but that is pretty widely accepted.

And to say that moving a target close does not simulate a close range shooting doesn't make much sense, except for the missing aspect of having a moving target.

 

[RX-79G]

If your groups are small in simulated defensive shooting, you are not firing rapidly enough.

It may sound counterintuitive to say that shooting at longer ranges will likely not help much in close quarter encounters, but that is pretty widely accepted.

And to say that moving a target close does not simulate a close range shooting doesn't make much sense, except for the missing aspect of having a moving target.

It may be accepted, but it doesn't make any sense. The only difference between a flat sheet of paper 5 yards from you or 10, 15, 25 is the focal length. If we were using realistic targets it would be a different situation.

The thing is, at 7 yards some folks can hip shoot much smaller groups than have been posted in this thread. This makes me doubt that the fundamentals of sighting are really getting much exercise.

One thing I have observed in IDPA is that even reasonably good shooters' groups open up considerably at close range targets. I'm not shooting any slower than them, but my 5 yard rapid groups are tight clusters while they end up dropping points. I don't see why that is happening unless shooting close is a crutch.

 

[Kleanbore]

The only difference between a flat sheet of paper 5 yards from you or 10, 15, 25 is the focal length. If we were using realistic targets it would be a different situation.

The thing is, at 7 yards some folks can hip shoot much smaller groups than have been posted in this thread. This makes me doubt that the fundamentals of sighting are really getting much exercise.

One thing I have observed in IDPA is that even reasonably good shooters' groups open up considerably at close range targets. I'm not shooting any slower than them, but my 5 yard rapid groups are tight clusters while they end up dropping points. I don't see why that is happening unless shooting close is a crutch.

The difference between a target at five yards and one at twenty five is the effect of the angular dispersion of the shots.

Anyone who tries to shoot at a close target with the same precision for which he would strive at seventy-five feet will find himself or herself at the wrong end of the scale in balancing speed and precision.

Yes, a lot of people shoot at targets seven yards away. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but if they do so because of having heard that a developing threat from someone seven yards away is an indication of a need to draw, they are missing the point that, by the time they have drawn, their attacker will likely be on top of them.

Most defensive shooting encounters occur at much closer ranges, and that's why the excellent I.C.E. PDN Combat Focus Shooting course puts much more emphasis on shooting at closer ranges--and on the ability to shoot before acquiring a sight picture.