Disturbing problem: Cartridge with Lyman cast bullet handloaded to COAL spec will NOT chamber in my rifle

[JimGnitecki]

Ok, ONE mystery is solved, but a different one created:

The bore and chamber are completely clear. There is no obstruction anywhere.

BUT, I had assumed that the rifle was somehow creating that interference ring on the bullet after it appeared, by interfering with the entry of the bullet into the throat somehow. Not so.

I have now traced the source of the interference ring to be the Hornady micrometer seating die I am using!

I placed a brand new uncoated bullet and empty sized and expanded case into the press and operated the handle. At one point as the bullet was rising up into the die, there was an audible and feelable "click". When I retracted the only partially seated bullet / case assembly from the die, there was the "interference ring" which I had wrongly attributed to metal in the rifle hitting the ogive.

I have never experienced anything like this before with a die.

I now need to disassemble the die enough to figure out what is happening.

I don't think though that this will change the fact that a cartridge loaded with this bullet will not chamber in the rifle, if loaded to the COAL recommended by Lyman. After all, the ring did NOT "add" diameter to the bullet ogive. It simply damaged its surface. To load the bullet, I had already determined by actual trial that I would need to reduce the COAL by at least .036". Given the low 14,000 psi to 17,000 psi pressure rnage the load table shows for this bullet at the Trapdoor loads I am wanting to use, is a .036" reduction in COAL likely to make the loads unsafe?

Your thoughts on both:

1. The potential reduction in COAL?
and
2. What has happened inside the Hornady micrometer seating die?

Jim G

 

[EricBu]

See, when I first saw your pics, I though that top ring was a seating artifact, and you were talking about faint line on the ogive, which is what it looked to me like the hard stop was. If it was a trapdoor, I'd guess if you seated it just another .002 or so deeper, you'd be golden, as the trapdoors are notoriously overbore, but I got nothing on the sharps.....plus you've got a Pedersoli replica, which is going to be different than a vintage sharps, at least my pedersoli trapdoor is much much tighter than my 1878. So I'm back to my original opinion: You've got two choices.......lol. I'll add a third, after reading up on that mold, and such......you might be able to size it down another .001 and give it a shot. Kind of a nod to Pedersoli making the replicas much much tighter in tolerance than the original. If you don't have access to another gun, you could see if you can find somebody else with a sharps or trapdoor to see what happens when they chamber it. If we were neighbors, I got a couple of them you could try it in. As far as your question on the seating die......you need a different plug. Not uncommon, no unusual. I have custom ones made for certain bullets.

 

[AJC1]

Ok, ONE mystery is solved, but a different one created:

The bore and chamber are completely clear. There is no obstruction anywhere.

BUT, I had assumed that the rifle was somehow creating that interference ring on the bullet after it appeared, by interfering with the entry of the bullet into the throat somehow. Not so.

I have now traced the source of the interference ring to be the Hornady micrometer seating die I am using!

I placed a brand new uncoated bullet and empty sized and expanded case into the press and operated the handle. At one point as the bullet was rising up into the die, there was an audible and feelable "click". When I retracted the only partially seated bullet / case assembly from the die, there was the "interference ring" which I had wrongly attributed to metal in the rifle hitting the ogive.

I have never experienced anything like this before with a die.

I now need to disassemble the die enough to figure out what is happening.

I don't think though that this will change the fact that a cartridge loaded with this bullet will not chamber in the rifle, if loaded to the COAL recommended by Lyman. After all, the ring did NOT "add" diameter to the bullet ogive. It simply damaged its surface. To load the bullet, I had already determined by actual trial that I would need to reduce the COAL by at least .036". Given the low 14,000 psi to 17,000 psi pressure rnage the load table shows for this bullet at the Trapdoor loads I am wanting to use, is a .036" reduction in COAL likely to make the loads unsafe?

Your thoughts on both:

1. The potential reduction in COAL?
and
2. What has happened inside the Hornady micrometer seating die?

Jim G

That's a profound change from our point of view and looking out for your saftey....

 

[MEHavey]

Again... does the bare nose of the bullet nose drop freely into the muzzle ?

 

[EricBu]

And I'd just add.......if you'd have done my sharpie test in the beginning, it would have been obvious that was a seating artifact, and not where the bullet was hitting when chambering. Just sayin'

 

[Jim Watson]

.036” deeper seating isn’t going to over pressure you

I don’t know what is happening in YOUR Hornady seater, but I ran into some .45 ACP bullets that MY Microjust wouldn’t seat.

Don’t look at the noses, look at the rings of lead and coating scraped up at the case mouths. I can think of that affecting chambering.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Again... does the bare nose of the bullet nose drop freely into the muzzle ?

I tried it just now. Answer: Not completely and not freely into the muzzle. When placed into the muzzle end of the barrel, the ogive portion goes in some distance, but as it approaches very roughly about halfway along the ogive it stalls out against the rifling. You would expect the SHANK to stall out when it hits the rifling, because the shank is supposed to be large diameter than the rifling by .002" to .003". But the ogive should NOT be stalling against the rifling. Its supposed to be smaller diameter than the rifling.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

And I'd just add.......if you'd have done my sharpie test in the beginning, it would have been obvious that was a seating artifact, and not where the bullet was hitting when chambering. Just sayin'

You are right.

Jim G

 

[MEHavey]

the ogive portion goes in some distance, but as it approaches very roughly about halfway along the ogive it stalls out against the rifling.

OK, I'm casting up some 457125s to check in my Pedersoli Sharps as I type

 

[JimGnitecki]

.036” deeper seating isn’t going to over pressure you

I don’t know what is happening in YOUR Hornady seater, but I ran into some .45 ACP bullets that MY Microjust wouldn’t seat.

Don’t look at the noses, look at the rings of lead and coating scraped up at the case mouths. I can think of that affecting chambering.

View attachment 1169789

That scraping at the mouth of the cases was, as I mentioned earlier without enough emphasis so tooe asy to miss, was caused when I had already tried to "solve the problem" by crimping tighter, and then when that did not work, even tighter. (Wrong attempted first "solution")

That remind sme that I need to make ANOTHER correction now. I need to readjust the Lee Factory crimp die back to where it simply takes out the "belling". I need to have that "modest crimp only enough to restraighten the case mouth" so that the loaded cartriudge will slide into the chamber. If I leave the belling in place, the cartriudge will not of course slide in fully.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

OK, I'm casting up some 457125s to check in my Pedersoli Sharps as I type

Wow! I appreciate that! What did your Pedersoli show as its bore diameter when slugged?

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Hell! I think I might know what is going on with the Hornady seating die. It includes, I believe, a "crimping" function IF you have the die set at the right height to seat and then crimp. I had had it set to merely seat, not crimp, as I wanted only a "crimp only until the belling is gone" crimp, and the Lee Factory Crimp die can bet set up to deliver that.

But, when I started to need to seat deeper I forgot that the Hornady does crimp if set to just the right height, and I accidentally activated that crimp, and did so severely enough with the iterative reductions that totaled over .036", that something inside got forced into the ogive of the bullet. THhat was probably the audible and feelable click I experienced before noticing the interference ring.

I''ll need to reset that die from scratch now. Hopefully, I did not damage it.

Jim G

 

[Jim Watson]

Some BPCR shooters leave flare on the case mouth for a centering effect. If the flare will let a bullet seat and the cartridge chamber, why crimp?

 

[EricBu]

You are right.

Jim G
[/QU

You are right.

Jim G

We live and learn, that's what these forums are for. I've been in your place, with over 200 firearms, ranging from vintage 1800's, to WW1 and 2 surplus mil from all over the world, to modern, and in probably 40 calibers......I've had a LOT of "WTFs" over time. A wide sharpie is now one of my go to tools if a round gauges but doesn't chamber. Coat the entire case...super easy to see the where the problem is.

For your seating issue, you have a couple of things going on...first, your die isn't right because it's crimping before the bullet is seating which you mentioned, but that requires more pressure to seat as well, which means you're going to get an artifact when using the wrong seating plug profile. Seating plug profiles in modern die sets are very limited, and almost always based around jacketed bullets. "Cowboy" dies usually include a profile meant for RN and RNFP lead bullets, and will hit better on the bullet and be less likely to create an artifact, a little fine sand paper and polishing it up helps as well, smooth out any sharp edges. Most of my straightwall dies for old cartridges now are RCBS, and I've sent them the bullets I use and had custom plugs made for ea....14.00 and saves a lot of pain. But...a proper flare and die setup is critical with softer lead and big cartidges like 45-70...you want to make it as easy as possible to seat that bullet...you want it to slide in very even and smoothly...if you note how that line is canted, your's are going in at a slight angle. Also, separating seating and crimping eliminates that drag and skid completely as well, and makes it more flexible to adjust seating, because you don't have to worry about your crimp at all.

Now that we've established you don't have an obstruction, I'd go back to square one. Back out that die, redo your seating depth, then set the crimp so you have no scrapes at all. Paint that baby head to toe with a sharpie, nice and solid. Chamber it again, and see where everything is hitting. Proceed from that point. That will tell you where you need to work.

 

[EricBu]

Hell! I think I might know what is going on with the Hornady seating die. It includes, I believe, a "crimping" function IF you have the die set at the right height to seat and then crimp. I had had it set to merely seat, not crimp, as I wanted only a "crimp only until the belling is gone" crimp, and the Lee Factory Crimp die can bet set up to deliver that.

But, when I started to need to seat deeper I forgot that the Hornady does crimp if set to just the right height, and I accidentally activated that crimp, and did so severely enough with the iterative reductions that totaled over .036", that something inside got forced into the ogive of the bullet. THhat was probably the audible and feelable click I experienced before noticing the interference ring.

I''ll need to reset that die from scratch now. Hopefully, I did not damage it.

Jim G

Lol, my post has been OBE.....I just discussed that. I think I was writing it when you were righting this.

 

[EricBu]

Some BPCR shooters leave flare on the case mouth for a centering effect. If the flare will let a bullet seat and the cartridge chamber, why crimp?

Yep, for single shots like the trapdoor and the sharps, crimp isn't needed really. Though on some guns, the flare can cause and issue, so I generally crimp just enough to remove flare, but on my 1878, it doesn't care and I could leave the flare. On my Pedersoli, it will not chamber correctly with the flare.

 

[dartor]

Ok, ONE mystery is solved, but a different one created:

The bore and chamber are completely clear. There is no obstruction anywhere.

BUT, I had assumed that the rifle was somehow creating that interference ring on the bullet after it appeared, by interfering with the entry of the bullet into the throat somehow. Not so.

I have now traced the source of the interference ring to be the Hornady micrometer seating die I am using!

Are you seating and crimping at the same time or two separate steps?? If doing both in one step you could get a ring in the nose of the bullet and damage at the case mouth.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Some BPCR shooters leave flare on the case mouth for a centering effect. If the flare will let a bullet seat and the cartridge chamber, why crimp?

I've found in the past already with this rifle that with the belling flare, it will NOT chamber. The flare must be removed,

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Are you seating and crimping at the same time or two separate steps?? If doing both in one step you could get a ring in the nose of the bullet and damage at the case mouth.

I have been doing separate seating and then just enough "crimping" with the Lee factory crimp die to remove the belling used to seat the bullet. But it appears I accdientally activated the flaring capability built into the Hornady seating die. Have to undo that.

Note also that I did not have this seating artifact problem with the Lee bullet with tis skinny ogive. Another issue unique to this Lyman bullet.

Jim G

 

[EricBu]

I have been doing separate seating and then just enough "crimping" with the Lee factory crimp die to remove the belling used to seat the bullet. But it appears I accdientally activated the flaring capability built into the Hornady seating die. Have to undo that.

Note also that I did not have this seating artifact problem with the Lee bullet with tis skinny ogive. Another issue unique to this Lyman bullet.

Jim G

Annnndddd that might lead to other problems. Lee FCD's and cast bullets. But that is certainly not the issue here, but something to keep in your mind as it can be an issue, especially if you size for an overbore vintage gun, a .460 cast bullet becomes a .458 cast bullet after the cartridge goes through an FCD. I use the redding profile crimp die for my 45-70.

 

[BWS]

Spec says, .4497".... I'll go to the $20 "bet window" and say this reamer will yield a .4498/9" hole.

 

[BWS]

Says there's 5 available.

Not tapered,but did spend less than 2 minutes looking. I almost bought it on general purposes,haha.

What little springback there is with cast... I'll say this reamer will produce a .449" nose.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Well, I did some final testing before stopping for the night. Here is what I now know:

- I can get the cartridges with uncoated bullets down to a COAL that the rifle will accept.

- I cannot get the cartriudges with pwoder coated bullets down to a COAL the rifle will accept though. If I try to go shorter than I did with the uncoated bullets, the cartridges actually get worse - they stall earlier in the chambering process,w ith more of the case remaining outside the chamber. I attribute this to the extra .002" of thickness of the powder coating apparently being enough, when coupled with the bulbuous ogive of the Lyman bullet, to stop the chambering a bit earlier than with the uncoated bullets.

- The Hornady die is marking these Lyman bullets with that ring. I did not have that problem with the skinnier ogoved Lee bullets. Whoever said I need a different seating insert for this Lyman bullet was apparently correct.

When I consider all of the above, the earlier-in-this-thread idea of asking a local replica rifle shooter to sell me 50 to 100 of his 500g bullets to test seems better and better. I KNOW those bullets chamber in my rifle and also KNOW they were very accurate at 100 yards. If those bullets can be obtained, and if they shoot as well at longer ranges as at 100 yards, that seems like a much better starting point for further testing and improvement than this Lyman bullet.

I guess if I had been smarter, I would have asked the local friend what mold he had used to make those bullets, and just bought that mold.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

Says there's 5 available.

Not tapered,but did spend less than 2 minutes looking. I almost bought it on general purposes,haha.

What little springback there is with cast... I'll say this reamer will produce a .449" nose.

I am not going to ream a brand new rifle that shot SO well with that friend's 500g bullet. For me, the bullet adapts to the rifle, not the rifle to the bullet. Bullets are no longer "cheap", but they are certainly cheaper than a rifle, so if I am going to screw up either the bullet choice or the rifle, better to screw up the bullet choice.

Jim G

 

[BWS]

Dude,it's not for your rifle.... it's for nose sizing.