Disturbing problem: Cartridge with Lyman cast bullet handloaded to COAL spec will NOT chamber in my rifle

[BWS]

Here's a tapered 1/2" reamer but I swear,would seriously consider this same sellers 7/16"?

 

[BWS]

And for others reading this and wanting to get in the fast lane.... the "proper",albeit somewhat dated style of these tools are "car reamers". In this instance,the car is a train car. The 1/2" in pic above lists it as a tapered maintenance reamer... which is cool too. Car reamers are an excellent googlefoo term though.

 

[MEHavey]

Wow! I appreciate that! What did your Pedersoli show as its bore diameter when slugged?

Just slight "feel" going in -- so honest 0.450" bore at the muzzle

 

[BWS]

I grind a lot of reamers,mainly for custom top punches.... occasionally grind one for nose dies. The car reamers I've bought however.... have worked perfectly.

 

[BWS]

Nice,MEHarvey... thanks for posting.

 

[MEHavey]

custom top punches....

One can create a 'custom' TP by
- Waxing the inner/concave surfaces of the factory seating stem,
- Mixing up some 5-minute epoxy and letting it sit for 2-3 minutes to slightly stiffen up,
- Slathering a bit into the inner concave of the seating stem,
- Running a previously hand seated bullet (in a barely sized case) up into the seating die...
- Screwing the seating stem down on top of the bullet to set the nose impression...
- Wait 5-8 minutes/disassemble and scrape off any slight overflow

Done.

 

[EricBu]

One can create a 'custom' TP by
- Waxing the inner/concave surfaces of the factory seating stem,
- Mixing up some 5-minute epoxy and letting it sit for 2-3 minutes to slightly stiffen up,
- Slathering a bit into the inner concave of the seating stem,
- Running a previously hand seated bullet (in a barely sized case) up into the seating die...
- Screwing the seating stem down on top of the bullet to set the nose impression...
- Wait 5-8 minutes/disassemble and scrape off any slight overflow

Done.

LOL, that is EXACTLY how I made my seating plugs before discovering RCBS's custom plug program. Though I used a thin layer of lithium grease for my release agent, and a polished it with a dremel. I still have some epoxy plugs I use, because there are some cases where I don't use RCBS dies, or it's something I don't load enough of to warrant a custom plug. You'd be interested to know, I have epoxy plugs I've loaded well over 20K rounds on automated machines without any sign of failing. I've also had a few that the epoxy crumbled or broke down after a few hundred...so there's that. I never recorded any details like brand of expoxy or anything, so who knows why some broke down and some didn't.

 

[BWS]

The top punches I'm referring to are for lube sizers. The factory versions in a lot(most) cases are too short.

Some of mine cover the whole nose,on loooong skinny bullets. The epoxy fill works but won't stand up to swaging duties.

 

[MEHavey]

That's why I'm now -- after 40 years -- almost exclusively using Lee push-throughs when I either ALOX or PC them
(But I still have some epoxy-fitted Lyman 450 top punches for things like my Paul Jones Creedmoores when injecting BP lubes)

 

[JimGnitecki]

Dude,it's not for your rifle.... it's for nose sizing.

Oh, I thought you were propsoed reaming the throat. Remember, I said I would not voluntarily use a drill with reamer to grind down the profile of a bullet, due to the Lead that would be sprayed into my work environment.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

I think I understand now why the Lee mold skinny ogive bullet never got the "ring" on the ogive from the seating die. Its narrow ogive shape let the die's hollow shaped seating insert contact the TIP of the bullet first, instead of the ogive. The tip of the bullet may well have been altered a bit by the seating force, but I never noticed that, so it ust have been a very subtle alteration to the tip.

On many Dillon dies, the seating insert is double-ended. One end is hollow curved to try to catch a bullet ogive to seat the bullet. The other end is FLAT, to catch the tip of a semiwadcutter or wadcutter.

An arrangement like that on the Hornady die would have been potentially a solution to eliminate the ring being engraved into the ogive.

Jim G

 

[AJC1]

That's why I'm now -- after 40 years -- almost exclusively using Lee push-throughs when I either ALOX or PC them
(But I still have some epoxy-fitted Lyman 450 top punches for things like my Paul Jones Creedmoores when injecting BP lubes)

I have only a few Lee but the noe universal holder, and their sizing plugs is my way forward now. If you have what you need no reason to switch.

 

[AJC1]

I think I understand now why the Lee mold skinny ogive bullet never got the "ring" on the ogive from the seating die. Its narrow ogive shape let the die's hollow shaped seating insert contact the TIP of the bullet first, instead of the ogive. The tip of the bullet may well have been altered a bit by the seating force, but I never noticed that, so it ust have been a very subtle alteration to the tip.

On many Dillon dies, the seating insert is double-ended. One end is hollow curved to try to catch a bullet ogive to seat the bullet. The other end is FLAT, to catch the tip of a semiwadcutter or wadcutter.

An arrangement like that on the Hornady die would have been potentially a solution to eliminate the ring being engraved into the ogive.

Jim G

Noe is cool because they sell the mold, the top punch, and the adapter to use the top punch in a Lee seating die along with the two step expander to round out the system.... I don't have their top punches because I use rnfp molds and just use a swc seating plug. They have a great system worked out...

 

[MEHavey]

JIM: I recommend you size just enough that the case will no longer allow the bullet to slide in freely by hand (and)...
Get both of these expanders

Track of the Wolf

Muzzle Loading & Black Powder Guns Kits, Parts, Accoutrements, Rendezvous Gear & Primitive Americana.

www.trackofthewolf.com

458-EXP

Track of the Wolf

Muzzle Loading & Black Powder Guns Kits, Parts, Accoutrements, Rendezvous Gear & Primitive Americana.

www.trackofthewolf.com

459-EXP
to fit in the universal Lee 7/8-14 die

LEE Neck Expander Die, 7/8-14 thread, for our neck expander plugs or powder compression plugs, each sold separately - Track of the Wolf

Totw.Structures.Web.Parts.DescriptionDetail

www.trackofthewolf.com

...otherwise you're having to use too much force in seating the bullet/deforming the nose.

-- ALSO --
seating bullet all the way out to fully engage the rifling on that Sharps -- very little/if any crimp req'd.
Press fit to close the action.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't these Sharps fun???
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

.

 

[JimGnitecki]

Noe is cool because they sell the mold, the top punch, and the adapter to use the top punch in a Lee seating die along with the two step expander to round out the system.... I don't have their top punches because I use rnfp molds and just use a swc seating plug. They have a great system worked out...

So an NOE mold would potentially be a good one to get because of the available "matching accessories". But, you have to use a Lee seating die, correct? If so, that's a lmitation as I don't think Lee offers a micrometer seater, and I really like the convenience, speed, and accuracy of a micrometer seater.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

JIM: I recommend you size just enough that the case will no longer allow the bullet to slide in freely by hand (and)...
Get both of these expanders

Track of the Wolf

Muzzle Loading & Black Powder Guns Kits, Parts, Accoutrements, Rendezvous Gear & Primitive Americana.

www.trackofthewolf.com

458-EXP

Track of the Wolf

Muzzle Loading & Black Powder Guns Kits, Parts, Accoutrements, Rendezvous Gear & Primitive Americana.

www.trackofthewolf.com

459-EXP
to fit in the universal Lee 7/8-14 die

LEE Neck Expander Die, 7/8-14 thread, for our neck expander plugs or powder compression plugs, each sold separately - Track of the Wolf

Totw.Structures.Web.Parts.DescriptionDetail

www.trackofthewolf.com

...otherwise you're having to use too much force in seating the bullet/deforming the nose.

-- ALSO --
seating bullet all the way out to fully engage the rifling on that Sharps -- very little/if any crimp req'd.
Press fit to close the action.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't these Sharps fun???
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

.

This is very helpful MEHavey. I see that the expanders are very inexpensive, so it makes sense to get both sizes, and their Lee expander die that accepts them is also veyr inexpensive. In fact, the shipping to Canada will cost more than the 3 pieces will total to!

And, are you saying that it is ok, or even preferable to let the bullet ogive touch or even engage the rifling with these loads in these types of rifles? If so, that greatly simplifies the seating, and as you say, removes the excess force that is putting the ring into the bullet ogive.

There sure is a LOT to successfully shooting bufalo rifle replicas . . .

It's a darn good thing they are so satisfying when they actually perform.

Jim G

 

[MEHavey]

...preferable to let the bullet ogive touch or even engage the rifling with these loads...?

Light jam fit at those BP levels.
In fact seated only enough that the action will just close with (cast) bullet shoved up against the lands.
That's to start.

(The old single-shot BP competitors used to actually first ram the bullet into the lands, and then load the unsized cartridge case full of BP behind it,)

 

[JimGnitecki]

In fact jam fit at those BP levels.
In fact seated just enough that the action will close with (cast) bullet up against the lands.

That sounds so much easier. Of course there ARE disadvantages:

Once the cartridge is chambered, you have to fire it, because removing it gets complicated: If you try to extract the cartridge, you'll get the case, but not the bullet. That will result in powder spilling out into your chamber and into the falling block and onto the shooting bench or ground. And you'll have to use a long-enough brass rod from the muzzle to push the bullet back out through the chamber. Am I correct in thinking that?

Jim G

 

[MEHavey]

Once the cartridge is chambered, you have to fire it, because removing it gets complicated: If you try to extract the cartridge, you'll get the case

If you for some reason you don't fire, just drop the block and tap the bullet back out w/ a cleaning rod.
No big deal as it's not jammed that hard to start with, but it is engaged.

 

[JimGnitecki]

If you for some reason you don't fire, just drop the block and tap the bullet back out w/ a cleaning rod.
No big deal as it's not jammed that hard to start with, but it is engaged.

Understand. Thanks.

Jim G

 

[MEHavey]

The bullet's seated/engaged only by the force of your thumb pressure on the back of the cartridge.

 

[JimGnitecki]

The bullet's seated/engaged only by the force of your thumb pressure on the back of the cartridge.

Understood.

Jim G

 

[BWS]

Don't know where you're getting some of this?

A nose sizer works exactly like sizing the body of a cast bullet.... no grinding involved.

Oh, I thought you were propsoed reaming the throat. Remember, I said I would not voluntarily use a drill with reamer to grind down the profile of a bullet, due to the Lead that would be sprayed into my work environment.

Jim G

 

[BWS]

I went back and saw where you think spinning noses causes lead dust.... that's pretty good. It dosen't but can see where you would think so. So I fully apologize for bringing that up.

Going to keep following this thread though,just downright interesting.

Hopefully I'm going to learn a lot watching and reading about your journey. Thanks for posting.

 

[JimGnitecki]

I went back and saw where you think spinning noses causes lead dust.... that's pretty good. It dosen't but can see where you would think so. So I fully apologize for bringing that up.

Going to keep following this thread though,just downright interesting.

Hopefully I'm going to learn a lot watching and reading about your journey. Thanks for posting.

Thanks for posting that it is NOT as hazardous as I thought! If it is done like diameter sizing is done, then the remaining issues are the extra processing step and the altering of a design profile. I would naturally prefer to find a mold that makes a bullet that does not require that step. I would also not want to "deform" the designed ogvie of a bullet without a very good reason, as that would likely affect both aeronautics and transonic behaviour in unpredictable ways.

After a century and a half of bullet mold usage, there HAVE to be molds that make really good bullets that will work in my standard production Pedersoli without needing alteration (like altering the shape) or serious compromises (like having to try to avoid the transonic region).

I am persistent, so if the right molds are out there, I;m going to try hard to find them.

Jim G