Do Americans have fewer rights than Iraqis?

[Oleg Volk]

I re-phrased it for clarity and accuracy.

Better?

 

[MM]

If you are trying to change people's minds, you are going to have to try it on folks whose minds need to be changed. It is still a ludicrous comparison vis a vis American households/Iraqi households.
Are you advocating the ability of untrained individuals to have selective fire weaponry? I really believe our rights to arms ARE inalienable, but have you ever been around folks the first time they have access to automatic weapons? It's a circus without prior proper training! Besides, if you want one, pony up the three bills for the class three and go-ahead on! Unless you are a felon or an addict of controlled substances, it is available to any citizen who has the government they deserve...
SatCong
PS -the AK needs to rotate counter clockwise to the horizontal, mask out the background -the drop shadow looks like an accident, and the tangency between the bottom of the mag and the typography looks sloppy.

 

[Keith Wheeler]

... I really believe our rights to arms ARE inalienable, but have you ever been around folks the first time they have access to automatic weapons? It's a circus without prior proper training! Besides, if you want one, pony up the three bills for the class three and go-ahead on! Unless you are a felon or an addict of controlled substances, it is available to any citizen who has the government they deserve...

I've got to really applaud Oleg for supporting ownership of full-autos and silencers. First off I'm going to say that, yes, I agree, not every yahoo needs a machine gun...BUT

1) When I bought my M11/9 my full-auto "training" was the sum total of shooting about 15 rnds through a friends Thompson. When I first fired my MAC, I had no problem firing nice controlled 3-5 round bursts, the way one is "supposed" to with a SMG. As long as I've owned that gun (14 years) I've never done a "mag dump" as folks who can afford far more expensive guns than my MAC seem to enjoy doing from the NFA boards I read. Appropriate handling of fully automatic weaponry has nothing to do with first timers (as you said) or "richer is smarter" as the .gov seems to think. Those 4 rules apply to machine guns just as much as any other. Some people treat machine guns (unfortunately) the same way that folks treat semis, as bang bang toys. I've always trained with mine, again with no instruction, to be able to safely engage multiple targets with short, controlled bursts.

2) The population of the United States is increasing. The number of available full-autos is limited. That's not a "free market", which I think is what Oleg's recent work has been pointing at. I don't mind the background check and all, in fact, I prefer it. But creating a situation where $300 subguns retail for $15,000 --- how is that different for 95% us from out right banning?

I say I have to applaud Oleg because so many hard core supporters of gun rights freeze up when it comes to machine guns. Honestly, do you really think my MAC with a full 32 round mag is any more dangerous than my semi Uzi with a 32 round mag? Or that my 9mm full auto MAC is more dangerous than a semi AR15 or FN-FAL? Or even a Remington 870?

Full-auto has a stigma, even among the most ardent supporters of the second amendment.

 

[GEM]

That's interesting. The current version of their constitution - an Aug. 2005 PDF had no mention of firearms.

However, earlier versions did mandate licensing by the state

http://www.claremont.org/writings/040310prizio.html

Wonder what finally will be put in place.

Anyway, I regret that I don't like the poster. It is too subtle. It is one for the choir. I can easily see the noncommitted saying that Iraqis need such weapons because their country is a horror show. If we get such, our country will be like Iraq. Most folks don't think beyond the vivid image and first impression

I think Oleg's past work is more convincing - sorry. Just being practical.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

Sure Iraqis get to keep a full auto AK47 for home protection but they can't shoot them worth a flip. The only thing that I can think of that you can point and shoot is a shotgun.
Nobody teaches them anything about.
1. Sight picture
2. trigger squeeze
3. Breathing control
4. Relaxation and follow through with the shot.

Because if they did a hell of alot of more of our soldiers would be dead.

 

[saltydog]

I'm all for "full auto" rights in this country but just think if machine guns were as popular, available, and as common as handguns what our communities would be like? I'm sure I can get arguments "for and against" from this statement.

 

[NineseveN]

And here we go again, gonna try and stay out of this thread, unfortunately, I have little tolerance for "halfway gunowners" who advocate gun control, just less of it than we see from VPC and the Brady bunch. You're either for the Second Amendment or against it, and it's not there to protect pistols, hunting rifles or shotguns, despite the popular misconception.

That's not what this thread is about, nor should it be. Oleg, good poster, I like it. I think you can play around with the phrasing a bit, but I get your point. Even in a place such as Iraq, where there is no constitutional guarantee to keep and bear arms, each Iraqi family may have a modern military-grade rifle in their home. Yet in the United States of America, we're not trusted enough to be allowed such a freedom, despite that our constitution says otherwise.

While we have no realistic limits on how many we may keep, we are mere serfs and not trusted with military arms, only neutered copies and rifles for "sporting purposes".

 

[captain obvious]

Iraqis need full auto AK's to fire into the air at weddings, but we've never adopted that practice.

Someone has never been to the more rural parts of West Virginia

 

[Koobuh]

I'm all for "full auto" rights in this country but just think if machine guns were as popular, available, and as common as handguns what our communities would be like? I'm sure I can get arguments "for and against" from this statement.

"Why would good Mister Adams down the river need a cannon? Simply preposterous! The local constable should relieve him of that dangerous weapon at once, before he blows up the stables!"
And yet, when our country was founded, all types of military arms were in civilian holding. All types, from infantry weapons to full warships. Seems to me that there wasn't too much mayhem going on with warships in private hands, for the constitution to have been given our very open-ended second amendment.
Your argument only holds weight if one begins from the assumption that the citizenry ultimately can't be trusted with weapons- which is what the opponents of freedom hold to be true.

To be on- topic.
Great poster and sentiment, however I wish it were that simple. I have not been pleased with the lack of recognition of civil liberties in the Iraqi constitution, and this smacks of the American backing of the corrupt South Vietnamese government. Bad vs. worse seems to be the standard model, but for heaven's sake let's try for 'good' at least once, people! A culture and world freer than our own should be the ultimate goal in foreign and domestic policy.

 

[NineseveN]

"Why would good Mister Adams down the river need a cannon? Simply preposterous! The local constable should relieve him of that dangerous weapon at once, before he blows up the stables!"
And yet, when our country was founded, all types of military arms were in civilian holding. All types, from infantry weapons to full warships. Seems to me that there wasn't too much mayhem going on with warships in private hands, for the constitution to have been given our very open-ended second amendment.
Your argument only holds weight if one begins from the assumption that the citizenry ultimately can't be trusted with weapons- which is what the opponents of freedom hold to be true.

To be on- topic.
Great poster and sentiment, however I wish it were that simple. I have not been pleased with the lack of recognition of civil liberties in the Iraqi constitution, and this smacks of the American backing of the corrupt South Vietnamese government. Bad vs. worse seems to be the standard model, but for heaven's sake let's try for 'good' at least once, people! A culture and world freer than our own should be the ultimate goal in foreign and domestic policy.

+1 on both accounts.

 

[Gun Wielding Maniac]

Bravo, Oleg.

Some posters seem to think that everyone being able to own automatic weapons immediately means we'll descend into anarchy. What a load of crap. Were we in a state of anarchy before 1934? Before our government deemed to tax the weapons to the point that they were totally beyond the reach of most people... and again in 1986, when inflation again put such weapons in our reach? The Iraqi people are in a state of anarchy because they've just endured a tyrant, several bloody wars, and are now enduring an occupation... not because they have so many guns :banghead:

 

[Blair]

Nice work as always Oleg. Very good Sir.

 

[Taurus 66]

Oleg Volk writes:

"Even under American occupation, every Iraqi family can keep a modern automatic rifle for self-protection. American families can't."

What about those with FFL's? and what about the millions of automatic weapons currently posessed illegally across the US? Not every automatic weapon illegally posessed is done so for criminal intent.

 

[Blair]

Not every automatic weapon illegally posessed is done so for criminal intent.

Aye, that's the thing though. They aren't posessed for nefarious purposes, but still the JBTs of the ATF don't discriminate. They don't make the distinction between the old man's (unregistered) Chinese Type56 bringback from 'Nam and the illegally converted "Tec-9 yo!"

 

[Taurus 66]

Aye, that's the thing though. They aren't posessed for nefarious purposes, but still the JBTs of the ATF don't discriminate. They don't make the distinction between the old man's (unregistered) Chinese Type56 bringback from 'Nam and the illegally converted "Tec-9 yo!"

Understood the BATF wouldn't discriminate between two different people each holding an illegal gun. I was not referring to "Joe Blow" should go out to the range with what he has - drawing much unneeded attention. Such things should be kept very secretive (no family members, no friends, no co-workers, nobody knows). The vault should be just big enough to house what it needs to, it's locked and is well hidden, only to be unlocked during periodic maintenance, or for a most serious event. Serious like a burglary or home invasion? NO, That's what semiautos and shotties are for. SHTF?? Yes!

 

[Dance&Sting]

I think the answer is easy. In America, according to my knowledge, we do not have any suicide bombers, rebels, or mercenaries running around our neighborhoods everyday. Iraq is somewhat different, I believe. We have the privilage of buying any type of make and model of a gun, besides automatic of course, and the only thing that can hold us back from this is age, criminal background, proper identification, and importing laws. Im pretty sure in a country like Iraq some of these great things that we have access to as long as we have money are prohibited. In countries where people hold other people hostages and gambles with the poor folks' lives between their own greedy demands and an answer from the boss and if what they request isn't met whether it's concerning money or a service or a favor they will not hesitate to accomplish this life-threathning task civilians would be glad that a law to carry automatic rifles is at hand. I know this and I'm sure most of you do to because I tune into world news, so don't bother asking. If I was a resident in Iraq I would be glad as hell to be carrying a 7.62 chambered automatic rifle.

We as Americans don't feel this level of threat, well at least the majority of us, and if something "difficult" does occur I'm pretty sure most of us have a set of iron and gunpowder stored away to settle this difference. Not to mention that 1911 around our waist makes us feel almost 100% safer Possesion of an automatic rifle isn't even a concern to me as it is to other people. My connection and sources to an automatic rifle is just a phone call away, but I rather stay legitimate and even though doing so may have me waiting weeks and months I know I am doing the right, lawful thing, especially of all those sins I was born with.

†$.02†

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

Interesting Story on the CNN

I flipped through channels the other day and was amazed to see (on the CNN - the Communist News Network fer crissake) a story on a local Iraqi politician standing on the street corner handing out leaflets while campaigning.

Inside his belt was an open-carry sidearm but the CNN cameraman focused on his face so quick I couldn't see exactly what it was. Personally, I'd feel pretty good about our own politicians campaigning while doing Open Carry.
How 'bout you?

 

[DRZinn]

Could change some opinions...

 

[Correia]

SatKong, the reason most people suck with full auto their first time is lack of familiarity. Just like pretty much every single type of firearm in existence. Increase the number of full auto guns, and more people will have experience with them.

And for background, I'm a firearms instructor, and I'm an SOT (in English that means I can legally build post '86 dealer sample machine guns and suppresors). So I know a little tiny bit about this subject.

Full auto isn't any more dangerous than anything else. It just has a stigma attached to it, sadly even in the minds of gun owners.

Unlicensed, unregulated machine guns won't cause any more crime or accidents than anything else.

 

[Gunpacker]

Full auto is way overrated

IMO, anything other than a handgun caliber shoulder mounted FA is likely to cause far more misses than hits. I would rather face a spray and pray type than a trained rifleman shooting fast controlled semi. It is only a little slower to empty a mag, but far likelier to cause hits. Heck, most of the downtime either way is changing mags, with a semi mag only taking a few seconds longer to empty.

 

[Blair]

IMO, anything other than a handgun caliber shoulder mounted FA is likely to cause far more misses than hits. I would rather face a spray and pray type than a trained rifleman shooting fast controlled semi. It is only a little slower to empty a mag, but far likelier to cause hits. Heck, most of the downtime either way is changing mags, with a semi mag only taking a few seconds longer to empty.

That's very true. I'd imagine "ka ka ka ka" for a prolonged period of time to be more intimidating than "brrrrt" (change mags).

Of course I'm a disarmed UK keyboard commando with no experience of ranged combat.

 

[MM]

Correia,
I couldn't agree with you more, weapon familiarity and training with same are always key.
The cowboy factor has been more apparent to me when young, rowdy men are first given selective fire weapons, purely because my environment, at the time, was of a less "strack" nature than that of many who where trained more "formally".
Never was a big fan of the "rock n' roll" but nothing beats it as a suppressive...
SatCong

 

[NineseveN]

Correia,
I couldn't agree with you more, weapon familiarity and training with same are always key.
The cowboy factor has been more apparent to me when young, rowdy men are first given selective fire weapons, purely because my environment, at the time, was of a less "strack" nature than that of many who where trained more "formally".
Never was a big fan of the "rock n' roll" but nothing beats it as a suppressive...
SatCong

And that's what they're good for, suppression fire. Now, I'd love o get my hands on one of HK's two-round burst models, that seems like it could be useful. FA would just be fun to have. I am stil against regulating or limiting FA based on my understanding of the Constitution, not based on whether I want one or not. Now, suppressors, that's a different story.