Do Criminals Sometimes Shoot Cooperative Victims to Eliminate Witnesses?
- Thread starter rrruuunnn
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Criminals, Armed Robbers, etc...whether 'seasoned' or not, will sometimes kill co-operative victims 'period'.
No need to interpolate or presume reason, nor to narrow reason or motive to any one possibility.
See 'In Cold Blood', or rather, the interviews with the two killers.
Other interviews of extempore or casual opportunity Robbers who then murdered co-operative victims also...
Probably, usually, murder in these contexts is about power, or, a chance to wield it, more than any care about anyone being a later robbery event wittness.
I believe most experienced or insightful people would remind that ostensible co-operation up to a point is merely wise tactics, and, beyond a certain point, or once the vibe shifts, is courting suicide by proxy.
No need to interpolate or presume reason, nor to narrow reason or motive to any one possibility.
See 'In Cold Blood', or rather, the interviews with the two killers.
Other interviews of extempore or casual opportunity Robbers who then murdered co-operative victims also...
Probably, usually, murder in these contexts is about power, or, a chance to wield it, more than any care about anyone being a later robbery event wittness.
I believe most experienced or insightful people would remind that ostensible co-operation up to a point is merely wise tactics, and, beyond a certain point, or once the vibe shifts, is courting suicide by proxy.
vanilla_gorilla
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As an LEO dispatcher, more than once I've had calls of the victim of robberies being shot or shot at after the act of the robbery itself is over. Only once that I know of was the victim killed, wounded a couple of times, more often a swing and a miss.
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
It happens, but I don't agree with the speculation I so often hear about the motivation.
i don't think most street criminals think that far ahead...they really don't think they'll get caught.
a "seasoned" criminal would more likely plan their crime so as not to have witnesses at all
a "seasoned" criminal would more likely plan their crime so as not to have witnesses at all
Deanimator
Member
Sometimes they just slash their faces with straight razors when they don't have "enough" money on them. That happened to a friend of my father's in the '60s.
But hey, if you can't trust in the sound judgment and basic decency of an armed robber, what CAN you trust in?
But hey, if you can't trust in the sound judgment and basic decency of an armed robber, what CAN you trust in?
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
It is old data, but FBI stats from about 10 years ago had about 13% of victims being harmed even when they cooperated fully and sometimes it wasn't the victim being harmed, but bystanders. In one case, a convenience store was being robbed. Customers were told to lay on the ground. The clerk was told to give up the cash. That all happened. Upon leaving, one of the robbers came back in the store and shot whomever he could see...which turned out to be the customers on the ground that he and his buddy didn't even try to rob.
So about 87% of the time, being cooperative works. The people in the other 13% aren't so lucky. The problem is, you don't know which percentage you will be in if you end up in one of those situations.
So about 87% of the time, being cooperative works. The people in the other 13% aren't so lucky. The problem is, you don't know which percentage you will be in if you end up in one of those situations.
A case happened in my city recently. An immigrant from Bosnia, a student of about 25 years old, was robbed at gunpoint in the parking lot of his apartment complex. Witnesses watched as the punk robber took the student's wallet and cell phone. Then, the robber extended his arm and shot the kid in the head, killing him instantly. Absolutely no reason except that he felt like doing it. He's still at large and no leads.
And, the question asked by the OP above sort of makes it sound like the criminals shoot the victims for a reason. In the cases I tend to see in the paper, there really is no reason or logic to the shooting. They just do it because they can.
And, the question asked by the OP above sort of makes it sound like the criminals shoot the victims for a reason. In the cases I tend to see in the paper, there really is no reason or logic to the shooting. They just do it because they can.
I saw on trutv, wen the victim knew one of the robbers, they decided to kill him.
There was a video in town of a cooperative convenience store employee/victim that died by stabbing. Defense was unaware of video and pursued self defense.
Another story: BG sneaked behind convenience store worker and slashed throat and died.
There was a video in town of a cooperative convenience store employee/victim that died by stabbing. Defense was unaware of video and pursued self defense.
Another story: BG sneaked behind convenience store worker and slashed throat and died.
Gouranga
Member
I never understood the rationale with killing the victim. You hold them up and get away never hurting someone, the cops will take it serious and try to catch you. You start killing folks when you rob them the cops will never rest, they will hunt you down like a dog.
Seems to be the best way to get away with it, is to wear a disguise, and do your best to not get anyone hurt. Course nobody every accused criminals of all being intelligent and rational either.
Seems to be the best way to get away with it, is to wear a disguise, and do your best to not get anyone hurt. Course nobody every accused criminals of all being intelligent and rational either.
Crusader103
Member
Unfortunately, yes, criminals will often cause harm even though it served no real use in furthering their goals. It stands to reason that if they do so when there is no real purpose, that they will also do so in an effort to eliminate witnesses when they have the forethought and/or a plan was already in place.
This has happened several times that I am personally aware of. On just one such occasion I was interviewing a "cooperative" suspect who had robbed a convenience store several days earlier. The clerk had been cooperative and the money had been handed over without pause. However, just prior to walking out, the suspect turned and shot the clerk 5 times (ultimately survived though).
When asked why he shot the clerk the offender was very straight forward, "I had never shot anyone before and just wanted to know what it was like to kill someone."
To address the actual question, yes I have been involved with offenders who made attempts to eliminate witnesses. Sometimes this has been by taking control of them and blindfolding them (generally by putting a pillow case or the like over their heads on a home invasion), and on a couple of instances in which the person was shot for the purpose of eliminating them as a witness.
This should serve as a reminder to everyone that cooperating with an attacker does not ensure your safety. You must take active measures to defend yourself at the earliest possible moment. You may not get a second chance.
This has happened several times that I am personally aware of. On just one such occasion I was interviewing a "cooperative" suspect who had robbed a convenience store several days earlier. The clerk had been cooperative and the money had been handed over without pause. However, just prior to walking out, the suspect turned and shot the clerk 5 times (ultimately survived though).
When asked why he shot the clerk the offender was very straight forward, "I had never shot anyone before and just wanted to know what it was like to kill someone."
To address the actual question, yes I have been involved with offenders who made attempts to eliminate witnesses. Sometimes this has been by taking control of them and blindfolding them (generally by putting a pillow case or the like over their heads on a home invasion), and on a couple of instances in which the person was shot for the purpose of eliminating them as a witness.
This should serve as a reminder to everyone that cooperating with an attacker does not ensure your safety. You must take active measures to defend yourself at the earliest possible moment. You may not get a second chance.
blakeci
Member
What I can't understand is the perps who shoot the clerk so as not to have a witness in a convenience store with 10 to 15 cameras rolling. You KNOW that there are cameras in there, and they are a much better witness than some scared 18 year old clerk.
James T Thomas
Member
evil rationale
I would not classify this phenomenon as common place, but it happens all to often. And you can read some of the replies here; many people are not aware of it at all.
I, unfortunately, cannot cite specifics, but at a Starbuck's coffee shop in Seattle: the young work crew and manager were executed in the back of the store before opening in the morning. I've heard of this at McDonalds too, but just don't remember where.
Then, here in my home town, Pittsburgh. Most recently, a young man; may have been a student, was robbed for money and a cell 'phone. That was not good enough for the thief, scum. He killed the kid. And there was a shoe store here where the clerks were executed. They were found lying face down.
#00Spy said ten years ago it was 13% who were not "lucky."
Today, I would think the percentage has increased.
Do you feel lucky? Well do you CCP?
The motivation for this? No witnesses to testify -supposed.
Mean streets most places in the USA.
Should you ever have an encounter like this, never surrender!
Should you be at the side lines, unobserved, when an armed man or men are in action, get your protection out and ready! I would not take the chance on them coming across me, no gun in hand, and then having to rely on their mercy!
It will be your choice to engage them premptively before they get around to you. Or, some feel it would be best to discretely vanish.
I would hate to pass the oportunity that surprise gives by remaining passive.
But that is just me, as it is said.
Didn't that man in some mall, who had a gun, let the kid who was shooting his AK at defenseless people, see his gun? (so much for "open carry") And then after being seen, even fired some "warning" shots, or unaimed shots, to no avail.
-The shooter shot him in the legs. He was "lucky" to live.
Off topic, but tactically connected to the post about these executioners.
I would not classify this phenomenon as common place, but it happens all to often. And you can read some of the replies here; many people are not aware of it at all.
I, unfortunately, cannot cite specifics, but at a Starbuck's coffee shop in Seattle: the young work crew and manager were executed in the back of the store before opening in the morning. I've heard of this at McDonalds too, but just don't remember where.
Then, here in my home town, Pittsburgh. Most recently, a young man; may have been a student, was robbed for money and a cell 'phone. That was not good enough for the thief, scum. He killed the kid. And there was a shoe store here where the clerks were executed. They were found lying face down.
#00Spy said ten years ago it was 13% who were not "lucky."
Today, I would think the percentage has increased.
Do you feel lucky? Well do you CCP?
The motivation for this? No witnesses to testify -supposed.
Mean streets most places in the USA.
Should you ever have an encounter like this, never surrender!
Should you be at the side lines, unobserved, when an armed man or men are in action, get your protection out and ready! I would not take the chance on them coming across me, no gun in hand, and then having to rely on their mercy!
It will be your choice to engage them premptively before they get around to you. Or, some feel it would be best to discretely vanish.
I would hate to pass the oportunity that surprise gives by remaining passive.
But that is just me, as it is said.
Didn't that man in some mall, who had a gun, let the kid who was shooting his AK at defenseless people, see his gun? (so much for "open carry") And then after being seen, even fired some "warning" shots, or unaimed shots, to no avail.
-The shooter shot him in the legs. He was "lucky" to live.
Off topic, but tactically connected to the post about these executioners.
Last edited:
MisterMike
Member
I don't claim to be Joe Friday, but I've worked in law enforcement nearly my whole adult life. If I've learned one thing, it is that you, a rational and decent person, cannot expect a criminal to act in the way a rational and decent person would act.
My belief is that any time you are the intended or actual victim of a forcible crime, you absolutely should never count on the good will of the bad guy. If you "surrender," it should be a tactical decision that will position you to escape or resist, but if you acquiesce in the hope that things will turn out alright you may have forfeited your life.
My belief is that any time you are the intended or actual victim of a forcible crime, you absolutely should never count on the good will of the bad guy. If you "surrender," it should be a tactical decision that will position you to escape or resist, but if you acquiesce in the hope that things will turn out alright you may have forfeited your life.
Cosmoline
Member
It's not uncommon. "Your money or your life" is not a binding contract to a criminal. We had an attempted murder and a murder of cooperative victims in a hotel lobby about two months ago a few blocks from here. Still haven't found the killer, so apparently shooting the victim works.
Lovesbeer99
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I saw on fox news a few months ago - store clerk was on his kness in front of a safe and working the lock. The thug had a carbine(looked like a 10/22) to his head and the store camera's (with sound) had this all on tape. As soon as the clerk opened the door you could hear a click. The thug pulled the trigger but the gun failed to fire. The clerk grabbed the gun for dear life and managed to wrestle it away and the thug got away.
Let me make this clear. The clerk cracked the door and the Thug instantly pulled the trigger. From the video I didn't see a reason for it. He could have had the clerk empty the safe, and took off.
Let me make this clear. The clerk cracked the door and the Thug instantly pulled the trigger. From the video I didn't see a reason for it. He could have had the clerk empty the safe, and took off.
Often times the guy "taking someone out" is a sociapath that has no conscience and thus no compunctions about killing. He enjoys the feeling of having ultimate control over the life of another. In such a case, eliminating a witness is probably secondary and no more than a good excuse to kill someone.
mljdeckard
Member
Is it wise to assume that they won't?
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Definitely not.
On what would you base the percentage as having increased?
Criminals are normally highschool dropouts with the IQ of a rotten cucumber. I dont think most of them can mentally think about the next 20-30 minutes. Like when they start a car chase with the cops, shoot at cops, get pulled over for speeding and have dope in full view of the window. Y
But if the dude knows what hes doing he wont. Indianapolis solved something like 98% of homicides last year. Numbers arnt even close to that for your basic feonly. Murders get a lot of attention, smart crooks wont shoot. Dumb indiot gangstas wannabees might.
Underlying issue, your average Joe criminal isnt the brightest bulb in the room.
But if the dude knows what hes doing he wont. Indianapolis solved something like 98% of homicides last year. Numbers arnt even close to that for your basic feonly. Murders get a lot of attention, smart crooks wont shoot. Dumb indiot gangstas wannabees might.
Underlying issue, your average Joe criminal isnt the brightest bulb in the room.
I saw on TruTv, BG walks through door and immediately starts shooting cashier.
Different story: Man robs Kentucky Fried Chicken and drives victims to a deserted area to execute 5 employees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Fried_Chicken_murders
I think I remember hearing that criminals learn while in prison the importance of witnesses.
Different story: Man robs Kentucky Fried Chicken and drives victims to a deserted area to execute 5 employees.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_Fried_Chicken_murders
I think I remember hearing that criminals learn while in prison the importance of witnesses.
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