Most people only have what the media reports to base their decisions on. Let me assure you that there is much more going on than is reported in the media, even in columns that say they are reporting the police blotter. We had a block to check in our CAD system where we could mark an incident NOT FOR NEWS. One of the big surprises I had when I started in LE was how much happened that never made the news.
Do examples, incidents, matter to you?
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Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
These incidents, each as an individual datum, does not have any sort of significant impact on any of the decisions that I make except in the sense of illustrating what can happen. Just like the shooting in the square in Tyler, Texas or the Bank of America robbery where 5 or 6 shots were insufficient for several of the defenders, these are just examples of what can potentially happen. What can potentially happen is reality, but what we have to consider is whether or not it is a very likely reality and how that fits our own individual situations. By golly if carrying a few extra rounds or a spare magazine is so much weight that it causes back pain for you, then you should not carry the spare ammo. You can take your chances knowing full well that 1) you are not likely to be in many gun fights as a civilian, or 2) that if you are in any gun fights as a civilian that you are not likely to need to be able to fire more than 5 or 6 rounds (because maybe you won or got killed).
I choose to carry more. With that said, in over 20 years of concealed carry and 35 years of gun ownership, I have never needed to draw/deploy my gun for a defensive situation. I have fired hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition, had countless pistol, rifle, and shotgun classes, yet never needed a gun once because of being endangered by another person.
I choose to carry more. With that said, in over 20 years of concealed carry and 35 years of gun ownership, I have never needed to draw/deploy my gun for a defensive situation. I have fired hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition, had countless pistol, rifle, and shotgun classes, yet never needed a gun once because of being endangered by another person.
Yes and anyone that listens to a police scanner also has learned the same thing. What anyone sees in the news is only a fraction of what is going on in their neighborhood.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
For myself, the short answer is no.
By the end of the day I could likely find videos to support nearly any position I had.
they way I view the question is more like “when people present you cherry picked data, does it change your actions?”
And like I said, that’d be a no. However, can we learn form cherry picked data, such as the videos in the op, well certainly. We just have to realize and acknowledge that the information/data is
A: real and true
(but also)
B: not representative of all (even most) situations
It’s also a matter of how one interpreted the information. For instance one could conclude after watching the first video, that it is better to carry a low capacity gun in case the bad guy gets your gun, I bet the woman that got her gun taken is glad he didn’t have another 10 rounds. One could also see it a reason to buy a “smart gun” others (likely us) would likely see a reason to get a little retention training.
And the obvious problem with this is with my 40+ years of experience I could conclude no gun is needed. After all I’ve never needed it, hope I never do.
By the end of the day I could likely find videos to support nearly any position I had.
they way I view the question is more like “when people present you cherry picked data, does it change your actions?”
And like I said, that’d be a no. However, can we learn form cherry picked data, such as the videos in the op, well certainly. We just have to realize and acknowledge that the information/data is
A: real and true
(but also)
B: not representative of all (even most) situations
It’s also a matter of how one interpreted the information. For instance one could conclude after watching the first video, that it is better to carry a low capacity gun in case the bad guy gets your gun, I bet the woman that got her gun taken is glad he didn’t have another 10 rounds. One could also see it a reason to buy a “smart gun” others (likely us) would likely see a reason to get a little retention training.
And the obvious problem with this is with my 40+ years of experience I could conclude no gun is needed. After all I’ve never needed it, hope I never do.
What do they dictate?
Old Dog
Member
A really, really germane point.
Not long ago, an intruder was shot in a home he'd broken into in the wee hours of the morning. The only reason this one particular crime of his made the news was due to his being shot by the homeowner. No mention in the news of the more than twenty other homes he'd broken into and stolen from, and those instances had never been reported in the media. Most rapes and sexual offenses are never reported in the news as well, and only occasionally if the perpetrator is sentenced.
Like you say, it's all in the interpretation -- mine would be that the woman in the video should have gone through some quality firearms training.
My father drove a motor vehicle from 1945 until 2021 and never was involved in a traffic accident, not even a scrape in a parking lot. Might we conclude from this that no car insurance was needed?
Oh. Well then, my real life experiences dictate I should probably still be packing an M-4 and at least seven loaded mags or a pistol with at least three loaded seventeen round mags whenever I go out, despite how genteel and harmonious the media narrative portrays my locality.
Carrying a firearm is much akin to having property, automobile, or dismemberment/disability insurance. Odds are you may never need it, but should the unfortunate incident occur, it's there. We all here (including myself) seem to have a tendency to way over-think this stuff.
fastbolt
Member
OIS and private person shooting incidents matter to me from what might be learned from an overall training perspective. However, that said, the capacity of some handgun which someone was carrying/using in any particular incident is of a low priority, to me. I'm more concerned with other aspects of the incidents.
Once you've known of cops who were seriously injured, or killed, after exhausting 1 or more hi-cap mags they were carrying during some incident, without achieving the desired effect (at least soon enough) ... 'capacity' takes a back seat to considering many other critical aspects of what might happen in situations and incidents.
Capacity does offer a sense of comfort and confidence to a lot of folks, both cops and private gun owners, and that's fine. Just make sure it's not a misplaced, unjustified or false sense of confidence.
I've said this before, but I'll say it again. During the course of my LE career I carried 6-shot revolvers on-duty, and then semiauto pistols chambered in 9, .40 & .45, with magazine capacities of 14, 15, 12, 8, 9 & 7rds, and then during my post-retirement service as a reserve I carried a 7+1/.45, 8+1/9 and finally a 15+1/.40 issued pistol (because the compact metal-framed 9/.40/.45's went away when we adopted plastic). I bought a fair number of handguns throughout the years of taking a lot of armorer classes and being able to buy at discounted pricing. In all those years I only bought ONE new pistol that uses a magazine capacity of more than 10rds, and that one has a 'high capacity' of 12rds. The rest all have mag capacities of 6-10rds ... and I'm still fine with that when it comes to carrying a retirement CCW.
Matter of fact, one of my most commonly carried duty/off-duty and now retirement weapon choices is a 5-shot snub. Sure, sometimes I may still belt on one of my 6-10rd subcompact or compact pistols, and they certainly still get their fair share of range practice and qual time (along with my J-frames).
Nothing in any of the ever-growing number of streaming video incidents - or the LE/OIS incidents I still hear about from instructors still working in LE - really offers any reason for me to change my mind for my retirement CCW needs. Not regarding capacity. I do, however, still look to try and glean as much as I can regarding potential training, knowledge, gear and tactics issues.
I certainly don't find fault with, or denigrate, the choices made by other folks who like to carry double stack mag pistols - and I know younger instructors who are fully on-board the double stack magazine capacity bandwagon.
Different strokes.
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skfullen
Member
Yes. Such things matter. When I'm on my own property in a rural area I carry a 22 revolver and feel adequately armed. When I go into town 30 miles from here, a town of 30,000, I carry a single stack 9 mm with an additional magazine.
When I go to Houston, I carry a G-26, and two mags.
I ALWAYS have an NAA mini-revolver in my pocket.
When I go to Houston, I carry a G-26, and two mags.
I ALWAYS have an NAA mini-revolver in my pocket.
Good Ol' Boy
Member
No, 6 videos does not sway my decision on load out.
But, lots and lots of videos, as well as news articles, about the state of society does impact my load out.
I hope I'm not breaking any COC by saying this, but major cities have for the most part been crap holes for a while now. I live very rural but I have to travel to one of the crap holes for work.
A few years ago I carried a G26 with a 12rd mag and no reload. Then I added a reload. Now I carry the same gun with a G19 mag with Xgrip spacer and the same G19/spacer reload, plus another G19/spacer reload in the car.
But, lots and lots of videos, as well as news articles, about the state of society does impact my load out.
I hope I'm not breaking any COC by saying this, but major cities have for the most part been crap holes for a while now. I live very rural but I have to travel to one of the crap holes for work.
A few years ago I carried a G26 with a 12rd mag and no reload. Then I added a reload. Now I carry the same gun with a G19 mag with Xgrip spacer and the same G19/spacer reload, plus another G19/spacer reload in the car.
To be well practiced in my carry platform and resolute in not employing its use except for the most dire of situations. To understand the responsibility of carry and act accordingly. That my choice to carry is absolutely not to bring harm to others but to provide defense or protection in the worst of times.
Incidents and examples on video can be useful tools for what you shouldn't do. My exposure to real time events have been far more formative to my approach.
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The plural of anecdotes is not data. Particularly anecdotes that were selected and do not represent a natural distribution of encounters. Sure, some encounters require a lot of ammo. Other encounters require no ammo. Others are in between. And in the last two years, I’ve seen (on TV, fortunately not in person) situations where it looked like a platoon of Marines with M4s would not be enough. We all draw the line somewhere with what we carry (size, weight, concealability, cost, etc), how we train, etc. I think arguing about how many rounds you carry is about as useful as arguing about the caliber you carry.
As a disclaimer, I generally carry 12+10 or 7+6. I do not have any revolvers that I would carry. And having escaped Cali I am just glad to live in a place where I can carry at all.
As a disclaimer, I generally carry 12+10 or 7+6. I do not have any revolvers that I would carry. And having escaped Cali I am just glad to live in a place where I can carry at all.
We may have a misunderstanding of the emphasis of my assertion. I place little priority to carry in public to ensure my personal safety and security.
Going on 55 years I've never drawn a weapon on another bipedal life form. I carry away from home far less than most contributors to this forum assert and am quite comfortable in doing so. When I do carry it's 9+1 in a platform with no extra mags or a bug. (1911)
If I represented a paranoid assertion to personal protection I apologize and hope to convey my view that your firearm is not your security blanket. Your awareness, preparation and conviction to contribute to a kinder society matter far more.
Wow, just wow. Sounds like username Sometimes2nd would be more accurate.
I'm 55, had concealed carry for 30 years, never "needed" it, yet always carry.
(Yes, in a "good area" where I don't think I'll "need" it - I'm not psychic, can't predict the actions of criminals / psychos)
Don't take my reply as trying to influence you, just sharing what I do.
Wow, just wow. Sounds like username Sometimes2nd would be more accurate.
I'm 55, had concealed carry for 30 years, never "needed" it, yet always carry.
(Yes, in a "good area" where I don't think I'll "need" it - I'm not psychic, can't predict the actions of criminals / psychos)
Don't take my reply as trying to influence you, just sharing what I do.
Good burn brother!
luzyfuerza
Member
I lived near Salt Lake City at the time of the Trolley square shootings. We used to go to a restaurant in Trolley Square from time to time.
I was proficient with my carry piece, and had a permit, but didn't carry regularly. Too much hassle.
When those murders occurred, I had to have a hard conversation with the man in the mirror. That incident was too close to home to ignore.
How would I have felt if someone I loved had been hurt or killed that day, especially if I might have prevented it if I had just bothered to have my handgun with me?
I didn't like the answer. The hassle and discomfort of everyday carry quickly seemed pretty insignificant. And I started to carry much more regularly.
That's an anecdote, I guess, but it had a big impact on my carry habits.
I was proficient with my carry piece, and had a permit, but didn't carry regularly. Too much hassle.
When those murders occurred, I had to have a hard conversation with the man in the mirror. That incident was too close to home to ignore.
How would I have felt if someone I loved had been hurt or killed that day, especially if I might have prevented it if I had just bothered to have my handgun with me?
I didn't like the answer. The hassle and discomfort of everyday carry quickly seemed pretty insignificant. And I started to carry much more regularly.
That's an anecdote, I guess, but it had a big impact on my carry habits.
mljdeckard
Member
I try to be careful and diplomatic. I think there is a lot of tribalism and absolute thinking in the gun and defense community. "You have to do everything the way I would do it or the only possible result is you and your entire family getting killed." Nearly always false. There are so many possible variations of circumstances, it is impossible to apply blanket rules.
My carry habits are considered extreme by many, but to me they are just what I'm used to. I bumped from a full-size 1911 to a double-stack 9mm 1911, 18+1. Most people don't carry something this big or that many rounds. I taught concealed carry for 10 years, and I tried to stay away from telling people what to carry. I was just glad they want to carry. I told them that everything is a trade off, and they need to learn how to run and reload every gun they carry.
Is it POSSIBLE that the 6-ish round limit to a revolver will cost you your life? Sure it is. But I think it's far more likely that you having a gun in the first place is 90% of the battle.
My carry habits are considered extreme by many, but to me they are just what I'm used to. I bumped from a full-size 1911 to a double-stack 9mm 1911, 18+1. Most people don't carry something this big or that many rounds. I taught concealed carry for 10 years, and I tried to stay away from telling people what to carry. I was just glad they want to carry. I told them that everything is a trade off, and they need to learn how to run and reload every gun they carry.
Is it POSSIBLE that the 6-ish round limit to a revolver will cost you your life? Sure it is. But I think it's far more likely that you having a gun in the first place is 90% of the battle.
mljdeckard
Member
mljdeckard
Member
Me too. And remember, Ken Hammond had a stock 1911 with one magazine, and he locked open. He wasn't carrying a spare. If that shooter had had a partner, Hammond would likely have been killed. It's not the ONLY thing to consider, but yeah, it was one of the events that persuaded me to bump up capacity.
Those situational differences would influence the probability of being attacked, but not the requirements for the tool needed to respond.
I understand your perspective but I can’t say that I agree with it. As a simple observation, I keep a fire extinguisher in my shop because the chance of a fire there is non zero. However, if there was to be a fire in my shop, a pumper truck with 5000 gallons of water would be far superior. But I do not have a pumper truck in my driveway due to the risk/cost trade-offs. Similarly, you almost certainly have smoke detectors in your house. But a much better option is to have fire activated sprinklers in each room of your house. The survival statistics are much better if you have sprinklers, but few people do due to the initial cost and other associated downsides with upkeep.
Acknowledging that there are trade-offs in concealed carry and that different people make different trade-offs simply makes sense to me. If I really needed it, would I prefer having my G17 in my hand over my S&W bodyguard - you bet! But I’d also prefer just not being there at all, or a M4 over the G17 in that case, or four armed friends with me, etc. In my case the S&W is much better than nothing at all. And sometimes, due to other trade offs (size, weight, concealability, etc.) that is my option. Maybe you’re the kind of guy that can conceal a desert eagle, but I am not.
All very true, but irrelevant. A violent criminal attack is a violent criminal attack.
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