Do Packs "Print"?

[Carbonator]

"Texas is not a traditional open carry state. They also do not allow open carry, or even printing, by those who have a concealed carry permit."

I used to carry a waist pack here in Texas when I was not even carrying a gun. It held my cell phone wallet tools etc. and the entire pack bulged out quite a bit at times, sometimes like a brick under my shirt. I wasn't even carrying a gun and I could see that lots of people might imagine that I was. Never had anyone say anything, no problems whatsoever. Now that I am actually carrying a concealed gun like a responsible citizen...

If your gun is in your waist pack, and the gun itself doesn't print under your shirt but the pack itself does, is that printing? What if the pack is fully exposed but you can't tell if there is a gun or something else inside? I know a guy around these parts who carries a full size Glock 17 in a black side pack, the pack fully exposed on his hip. You can't tell that there is a gun in his pack because the gun doesn't print per se but the pack is fully exposed and you could *imagine* that there is a gun in there. Most of us in this forum would say that his pack "screams gun" but maybe not so much for the general public.

This is very subjective and the laws are very vague as usual so I guess I'm looking for opinions or experiences with waist-pack or even side-pack carry.

 

[mljdeckard]

I use a pack from time to time, and I flat don't care if it screams 'gun'. It screams gun to other gun people, I don't care if they know.

As for the law, I don't know how TX law reads, but it doesn't make much sense to cal it printing if it isn't gun-shaped.

 

[Averageman]

"Texas is not a traditional open carry state. They also do not allow open carry, or even printing, by those who have a concealed carry permit."
Can you show me where this is stated in the Law?
I'm trying to work this all out, because more than one person has told me this and during my CHL Class my Instructor called BS on this.
I would say anyone with a fanny pack is "Printing." The same as anyone with a Tacticle vest is, but where do we cry foul?
The weapon is either concealed or not, what you may think is a weapon could be a cell phone, a multi-tool or a colestomy bag; if it is concealed it is concealed from view.

 

[Sam1911]

Not sure if this is a question for Legal rather than S&T, but legally, no, I can't imagine under what set of circumstances you could be arrested for printing through a fanny pack.

TX law says:

§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN[0] BY LICENSE HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

TX being what it is, that may be open to some mighty liberal interpretation, but "printing" isn't in the law, and at any rate, a gun zipped up in a waist pack could hardly be considered an intentional failure to conceal.

Now, from social standpoint, I'd always assume a fannypack I see has a gun in it. So what? I always assume an untucked shirt or a "fishing vest" has a gun under it, too. If you want to carry a gun so that no one can tell, perhaps a fanny pack isn't the right way to go. If you just want to be legal and not get the stink eye from soccer moms, then a fanny pack is fine.

What's the S&T angle here? Fanny packs aren't great, generally, to draw from, but they have their benefits. What strategy or tactics advice are you looking to receive?

 

[Carbonator]

"Can you show me where this is stated in the Law?"

Got the wording from: http://www.opencarry.org/tx.html

 

[Carbonator]

"What's the S&T angle here? Fanny packs aren't great, generally, to draw from, but they have their benefits. What strategy or tactics advice are you looking to receive?"

The law can't answer my question accurately until after the fact and even a lawyer would be speculating so I didn't want to focus on interpretaion of written law. I am really looking for experience and opinions, carry strategies I suppose about "pack carry", if other people can tell if I have a gun in a pack or not, both bad guys and good guys, and if it really makes a difference in day to day carry. I am also concerned about how it would make a difference in court so I am not ruling out that arena either. I do use a waist pack at times (not for a gun yet) under a shirt but I have never carried a fully exposed tactical pack on my side like Mr Glock 17 does...

 

[Rail Driver]

I would think that a fanny pack with a rear pocket wouldn't be much more difficult to draw from than an IWB holster, however if the gun is in the main pouch, I can see the potential for disaster.

 

[Paladin38-40]

Which pack?

If you are concerned with the outline of the gun being detectable, get a pack especially designed for gun carry that has a built in holster and avoid the $15 K-mart Blue Light Specials. I have both a leather and nylon fanny pack plus a Discreet Hip Pouch by DeSantis http://www.desantisholster.com No printing.

Also look at the Wilderness Safepacker . I can vouch for them alsohttp://www.safepacker.com

As has been pointed out already, fanny pack carry has been around long enough that we are not fooling anyone who knows anything as to the probable contents therein. If it rides high and jiggles lightly it probably contains credit cards, but if the belt pulls at the waist, the pack rides low and goes "ka-thunk" when they walk they are probably packin' iron. But most stereotype soccer moms are not that savvy.

 

[Japle]

It doesn't matter if the gun "prints".

It wouldn't matter if you had an embroidered patch on your fanny pack announcing “I HAVE A GUN IN MY FANNY PACK!!”

No one’s paying any attention to you. They’re too wrapped up in their own lives to examine your belongings for the outline of a gun.

Unless you’re a supermodel or on fire, you’re effectively invisible. Don’t worry about it.

 

[Gadzooks Mike]

Printing is when the gun or outline of the gun shows through from what it's inside of. It sounds to me like you're worried about the fanny pack printing. No law against that. It's a fanny pack. You don't have to hide it. If the gun outline doesn't show through, then the gun isn't printing.

No one’s paying any attention to you. They’re too wrapped up in their own lives to examine your belongings for the outline of a gun.

Unless you’re a supermodel or on fire, you’re effectively invisible.

Japle - Outstanding!!

 

[TexasRifleman]

This is very subjective and the laws are very vague as usual so I guess I'm looking for opinions or experiences with waist-pack or even side-pack carry.

The law is not vague, and there is no such thing as "printing" in Texas law.

A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

"Concealed" is also defined in the law:

"Concealed handgun" means a handgun, the presence of
which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable
person.

Which Japle has done a good job of describing:

No one’s paying any attention to you. They’re too wrapped up in their own lives to examine your belongings for the outline of a gun.

Unless you’re a supermodel or on fire, you’re effectively invisible.

There have been threads on this before, and I know lots of folks in Texas that have been looking hard to find an actual conviction under this statute. No one has yet to post any evidence of a conviction for this. The thing about the law is the "intentionally fails to conceal". For LE to get to a point of arresting someone for that it's going to have to be pretty blatant. Not only does the handgun have to be very obvious, it has to be INTENTIONAL. That's going to be pretty tough to prove if you're making any attempt at all to conceal the handgun.

This would be 475th down my list of things to worry about while carrying concealed.

 

[zorro45]

Get a pink fanny pack, nobody will suspect what is inside it!
Also, a thin piece of closed cell foam will eliminate printing if fitted between the outer
layer of the pack and the gun.

 

[Carbonator]

"It doesn't matter if the gun "prints"." -Japle

"The law is not vague, and there is no such thing as "printing" in Texas law." -TexasRifleman

""Concealed handgun" means a handgun, the presence of
which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable
person."

----------------------------------------

The above statements seem contradictory. I consider myself to be a reasonable person, and to me the presence of a gun can be openly discernable in ordinary observation, call it printing or something else. To me, "printing" indicates a presence. This is why I didn't post this thread in the Legal section, to be polite. I mean, to take the High Road. Thanks for the input and suggestions.

 

[Sam1911]

This is why I didn't post this thread in the Legal section,

I guess I understand you reasoning, but for me, the actual law (and how it is applied in real life) would be my guide here.

Where I live open carry is legal (without a permit) and I don't care one bit if I'm "printing" generally, so only the legal language requiring special consideration given to that would be of significance to me. ... and that seems to be what you're concerned about as well.

Remember, not only does the gun have to be "openly discernable to ordinary observation" but the carrier must also intentionally fail to conceal the handgun.

 

[nalioth]

"Texas is not a traditional open carry state. They also do not allow open carry, or even printing, by those who have a concealed carry permit."

I'm not sure where this keeps coming from, but printing isn't illegal in Texas.

"Intentional exposure" is illegal.

Ah, I see TR already covered this

 

[TexasRifleman]

The above statements seem contradictory. I consider myself to be a reasonable person, and to me the presence of a gun can be openly discernable in ordinary observation, call it printing or something else. To me, "printing" indicates a presence. This is why I didn't post this thread in the Legal section, to be polite.

The statements are not contradictory, read again the law:

"Concealed handgun" means a handgun, the presence of
which is not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable
person.

That means it has to be obvious AND intentional. Just because you, a guy who is into guns, can spot a gun vs a cell phone when you see that telltale lump, doesn't mean that it's openly discernible and intentional. BOTH of those things have to be present or it's not worth worrying about.

You said it yourself:

To me, "printing" indicates a presence.

Indicating a presence is NOT the same as an openly discernible and intentional display of a handgun. And in your opening post you talked about someone "imagining" a gun being present. That's fine, they can imagine it all they want, it's not an intentional display, openly discernible.

It IS a legal question, I don't see how one could argue it isn't. Not trying to be argumentative, but it does seem to be a question of laws.

And your opening post asked this:

This is very subjective and the laws are very vague as usual so I guess I'm looking for opinions or experiences with waist-pack or even side-pack carry.

As I hope is shown, the laws are not vague at all. As for real experiences, there is no record of someone being arrested and charged with a violation of the law regarding this openly discernible and intentional act other than someone just flat out open carrying by mistake or stupidity, at least as far as myself and many others are aware.

When the CHL law first came to Texas this was a big worry, would LE use this as an excuse to hassle folks? It does not seem to be an issue. I've spoken to countless LEOs over the years and they all say the same thing basically; that if it appears someone tried in the least to conceal the gun and it's still visible they will simply say "hey you might want to cover that up better next time".

If anyone has a link to someone being convicted of this in Texas I'd love to see it. I know a lot of folks have been looking for years and so far it just doesn't seem to have happened.

 

[hirundo82]

The above statements seem contradictory. I consider myself to be a reasonable person, and to me the presence of a gun can be openly discernable in ordinary observation, call it printing or something else. To me, "printing" indicates a presence.

"Printing" has no legal standing in the Texas Penal Code. There is an offense of "intentional failure to conceal" but if you are a CHL holder and are making a good-faith effort to conceal your gun, you are not guilty of that no matter how much it is printing.

 

[Averageman]

"Printing" has no legal standing in the Texas Penal Code. There is an offense of "intentional failure to conceal" but if you are a CHL holder and are making a good-faith effort to conceal your gun, you are not guilty of that no matter how much it is printing.
Where do these inter-net "Laws" start and why wont anyone believe you when you tell them they are wrong?
Can you see John Wayne Shake his keister at Dean Martin in Rio Bravo and in his best metrosexual voice as "Dean,....Does this gun print???"

 

[TexasRifleman]

Where do these inter-net "Laws" start and why wont anyone believe you when you tell them they are wrong?

Sadly it's because the anti's and most media outlets have done such a good job of demonizing guns and gun owners that even many gun owners start to believe it somewhat and become paranoid when carrying concealed.

They truly believe that every cop is just standing there waiting to see the slightest bulge and take them down.

It rarely, if ever, happens but it doesn't stop people from worrying about it. We have to stop buying into the notion that there is something unusual or out of the ordinary about carrying a concealed, or for that matter open, handgun.

 

[loneviking]

A gun is not going to print from a well designed gun pack. I carry in a Tommys gun pack, which has two pockets in front of the gun so there's no way the outline of the gun shows through.

As for drawing the weapon, that's why I like the Tommys packs as there is a buckle you can snap open and pull to access the gun without the pack dropping to the ground. With a bit of practice, it's very fast and a very convenient way to carry a medium to large pistol.

 

[Azimuth315]

I've been using a Coronado fanny-pak for years here in Fl.

Weapon resides in it's own compartment in the rear which is closed with a quick release zipper. Just pull on the edge of the pak with one hand and the zipper unzips. It can be undone very quickly. That zipper is also lockable.

I carry a BHP and it does'nt "print". Nobody "knows" your carrying a pistol in your "kangaroo" pouch (my daughter started calling it that when she was a child). They can only assume. Some may assume I'm armed. Some may assume I'm a dork. I don't much care one way or the other.

Regards - Al

 

[Japle]

I have serious issues with carrying a gun in a way that requires two hands or any complex move like unzipping a compartment. You may be in a hand-to-hand fight and not have two hands available. You may not be able to access the gun without taking your eyes off the BG to find the zipper or whatever’s securing your gun.

I know, I know, that might be the best you can do.
But maybe you can do better.
Think about it.

 

[Nushif]

I guess the core of the question is ... do fanny packs print...

To me, they do. Incredibly so. I figure either that person is carrying, or somehow miraculously missed the memo that only people who carry in them still wear them.

The problem mainly is, I think that as a piece of clothing or fashion they went the way of the Dodo so hard and fast that anyone wearing one deliberately does so. And the only reason I can think of is a gun.

This may be a bit of a generational thing though.

 

[hirundo82]

I guess the core of the question is ... do fanny packs print...

To me, they do. Incredibly so. I figure either that person is carrying, or somehow miraculously missed the memo that only people who carry in them still wear them.

The only people who are going to think "gun" when they see a fanny pack are people who themselves carry a gun. Everyone else is just going to assume you missed the memo that the 80's are over.

 

[Uteridge]

First, as others have said, printing is not illegal in Texas.

Second, unless there is an obvious gun shaped bulge that is undeniably a gun then the issue is a moot point. A police officer does not have the right to just come up to and demand to search anything you are carrying...this is why we have a Bill of Rights that protects us from illegal search and seizure. In order to conduct a search without a search warrant a police officer must have Reasonable Suspicion of a Crime (although in light of recent court rulings even this is in doubt; we are heading towards needing a search warrant for just about any search.) A police officer can search you no more for having a bulging fanny pack than he can for wearing a blue shirt; it is unconstitutional. If a police officer cannot search you and he has no reason to detain you then why would the issue even come up?

And as others have said, no one is out to get you. Police officers have better things to do than harass lawful gun owners...politicians in some states apparently don't have anything better to do but police officer work for a living.