Lone_Gunman
Member
Do Springfield Mil Spec 1911s have MIM parts, and if so, what parts are MIM?
Do Springfield Mil Spec 1911s have MIM parts, and if so, what parts are MIM?
- Thread starter Lone_Gunman
- Start date
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
MIM in the Spring(fields)
Howdy Lone Gunman,
The answer is yes, though I'm not able to determine just which ones as yet
because my step-son is too busy shooting the one that he's supposed to
let me hold for testing and analysis...Soon to be remedied I HOPE!
Dana Kamm(dsk) has a WW2 mil-spec that he's lilely torn down and gone over with a fine-toothed comb, and is in a better position to answer your
questions. I haven't had a close look at a Mil-Spec Springer in a few years.
Without knowing, I'll take a guess at it.
MIM hammer, sear, and disconnect. Probably the slidestop and
possibly the firing pin stop, too. Mag catch..maybe. Hammer strut...
also maybe. Plunger tube...likely.
I'd guess that the grip safety could be either MIM or an investment casting.
Barrel bushing is PROBABLY steel, but could be MIM. Mainspring housing...
most likely a casting. Thumb safety...casting. Mainspring plunger and cap...
castings. All pins and the barrel link are probably steel, as is the frame and
slide. Two-piece barrel? Probably.
Hope somebody can be more exact that I can here. I'll know more as soon
as my test example arrives, and I'll post a thread on what I find.
Luck!
Tuner
Howdy Lone Gunman,
The answer is yes, though I'm not able to determine just which ones as yet
because my step-son is too busy shooting the one that he's supposed to
let me hold for testing and analysis...Soon to be remedied I HOPE!
Dana Kamm(dsk) has a WW2 mil-spec that he's lilely torn down and gone over with a fine-toothed comb, and is in a better position to answer your
questions. I haven't had a close look at a Mil-Spec Springer in a few years.
Without knowing, I'll take a guess at it.
MIM hammer, sear, and disconnect. Probably the slidestop and
possibly the firing pin stop, too. Mag catch..maybe. Hammer strut...
also maybe. Plunger tube...likely.
I'd guess that the grip safety could be either MIM or an investment casting.
Barrel bushing is PROBABLY steel, but could be MIM. Mainspring housing...
most likely a casting. Thumb safety...casting. Mainspring plunger and cap...
castings. All pins and the barrel link are probably steel, as is the frame and
slide. Two-piece barrel? Probably.
Hope somebody can be more exact that I can here. I'll know more as soon
as my test example arrives, and I'll post a thread on what I find.
Luck!
Tuner
stans
Member
Darned kids! Hey, at least he is a shooter and not one of those anti-everthing know it all's!
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Kids!
stans said:
Darned kids! Hey, at least he is a shooter and not one of those anti-everthing know it all's!
Yep. I had him and his brother well indoctrinated by the time they were
old enough to understand simple math. By the time they were 9 and 11,
they could detail-strip a 1911 with the best of'em, and I'd have trusted one
of those boys behind me at that age with a loaded gun before I'd trust
some my adult range pals.
The older one (31) just got through with his first build-from-the-ground-up,
and the lad did well. Now if I could just get him to give up that dang Springer for a wring out. :banghead: I intend to put a few thousand through it and report on how it does. Then he wants to upgrade all the internals and put it up for his son, along with the one that he built.
Multiple Sclerosis is takin' a toll on him fast, and he's kinda in a hurry to get
everything squared away.
The younger one is heavy into Single-Action Colts and keepin' his young wife barefoot and pregnant.
Cheers!
Tuner
stans said:
Darned kids! Hey, at least he is a shooter and not one of those anti-everthing know it all's!
Yep. I had him and his brother well indoctrinated by the time they were
old enough to understand simple math. By the time they were 9 and 11,
they could detail-strip a 1911 with the best of'em, and I'd have trusted one
of those boys behind me at that age with a loaded gun before I'd trust
some my adult range pals.
The older one (31) just got through with his first build-from-the-ground-up,
and the lad did well. Now if I could just get him to give up that dang Springer for a wring out. :banghead: I intend to put a few thousand through it and report on how it does. Then he wants to upgrade all the internals and put it up for his son, along with the one that he built.
Multiple Sclerosis is takin' a toll on him fast, and he's kinda in a hurry to get
everything squared away.
The younger one is heavy into Single-Action Colts and keepin' his young wife barefoot and pregnant.
Cheers!
Tuner
Lone_Gunman
Member
Tuner,
I am especially concerned whether the slide stop is MIM. I have been very unhappy with MIM slide stops on other guns, and if its MIM I want to swap it out.
I am especially concerned whether the slide stop is MIM. I have been very unhappy with MIM slide stops on other guns, and if its MIM I want to swap it out.
I'd e-mail or FAX the manufacturer (so you have a paper trail) and ask them point blank which if any parts in your pistol are MIM. Include a partial serial number. If you don't get a straight answer, or don't trust what they say I would either sell the gun and get one I trusted, or bite the bullet and replace the parts Tuner mentioned, including the slide stop in particular. It's a sad commentary on how guns are built these days, but that's the way it is.
rbernie
Contributing Member
How can you tell from visual inspection if a given part (say, a slide stop) is MIM or milled steel?
A machined part usually will have tool marks on it somewhere, but it may take a good glass to see them. Molded parts may (or may not) have small round marks on them caused by knockout pins. Of course investment castings are a possibility too.
From what I could tell the slide stop, hammer, and most internal parts were MIM on mine when I examined it. I'm not sure about the extractor, it may simply be cast. But the slide stop has definite "sprue" marks on the inside indicating MIM construction.
In any event, Springfields don't seem to be crumbling apart like the Kimbers are. I recommend just replacing the critical parts like the slide stop and extractor with tool-steel ones and leaving it at that. Otherwise you'll be spending big $$$ chasing perceived rather than real problems, negating the whole reason why you bought it (its great price).
In any event, Springfields don't seem to be crumbling apart like the Kimbers are. I recommend just replacing the critical parts like the slide stop and extractor with tool-steel ones and leaving it at that. Otherwise you'll be spending big $$$ chasing perceived rather than real problems, negating the whole reason why you bought it (its great price).
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
MIM Revisited
Howdy Lone Gunman,
Like dsk said, you can spot a sprue mark on an MIM part. On the extractors, it's on the butt-end at 6 O'clock, and rectangular in shape.
The slidestop will have one on the inside of the arm, and it will be a small circle or possibly a square with what looks like an "X" in the middle. The
sears that I've seen have 2 very light circles on the side.
FWIW, a couple years ago, I ordered two Chip McCormick MIM slidestops
just out of curiosity. I knew that they were MIM, and had a couple of beaters that I cobbled up on a budget for extreme range duty...I installed the stops in the guns, and did my level best to make'em break without
success. MIM CAN be very good, if the QC on the process is up to the
task. Sadly...for us and for Kimber...their parts vendor seems to be
lax in that role.
I don't have any qualms over using MIM in a range gun. A part failure
while defending myself against falling plates and Pepper Poppers is a
nuisance, and nothing more. I've also never seen a Colt MIM sear fail
in thousands of rounds. I had one to chip a little on one corner, but it
didn't affect the function of the gun, other than the trigger getting a little
funky on me.
MIM is viable for those building a range queen on a shoestring. I've used
it...I just don't use it in a pistol that's meant for a more serious purpose.
Luck!
Tuner
Howdy Lone Gunman,
Like dsk said, you can spot a sprue mark on an MIM part. On the extractors, it's on the butt-end at 6 O'clock, and rectangular in shape.
The slidestop will have one on the inside of the arm, and it will be a small circle or possibly a square with what looks like an "X" in the middle. The
sears that I've seen have 2 very light circles on the side.
FWIW, a couple years ago, I ordered two Chip McCormick MIM slidestops
just out of curiosity. I knew that they were MIM, and had a couple of beaters that I cobbled up on a budget for extreme range duty...I installed the stops in the guns, and did my level best to make'em break without
success. MIM CAN be very good, if the QC on the process is up to the
task. Sadly...for us and for Kimber...their parts vendor seems to be
lax in that role.
I don't have any qualms over using MIM in a range gun. A part failure
while defending myself against falling plates and Pepper Poppers is a
nuisance, and nothing more. I've also never seen a Colt MIM sear fail
in thousands of rounds. I had one to chip a little on one corner, but it
didn't affect the function of the gun, other than the trigger getting a little
funky on me.
MIM is viable for those building a range queen on a shoestring. I've used
it...I just don't use it in a pistol that's meant for a more serious purpose.
Luck!
Tuner
Jeff Timm
Member
Being a curious fellow I googled this website:
http://manufacturing-fabrication.gl...Services/Metal_Injection_Molding_MIM_Services
Interesting and easy to skimp on the expensive steps.
Geoff
Who knows a bit about QC.
http://manufacturing-fabrication.gl...Services/Metal_Injection_Molding_MIM_Services
Interesting and easy to skimp on the expensive steps.
Geoff
Who knows a bit about QC.
>> Metal injection molding can provide a substantial cost savings over conventional metal machining options. <<
Clearly a benefit for the manufacturer’s bottom line, but possibly not something that’s best for the user/owner who might use the product for personal defense.
>> MIM parts have high densities and mechanical properties APPROACHING THOSE OF FORGED OR MACHINED COMPONENTS. << (Emphasis added).
Sure … So for a relatively modest cost savings on the part of the manufacturer the user may have to stake his neck on something that “approaches†the quality of what used to be used, without any specific understanding of what “approaches†actually means. However by any definition, the MIM part is a compromise made for cost-saving purposes.
Not in my guns …
Clearly a benefit for the manufacturer’s bottom line, but possibly not something that’s best for the user/owner who might use the product for personal defense.
>> MIM parts have high densities and mechanical properties APPROACHING THOSE OF FORGED OR MACHINED COMPONENTS. << (Emphasis added).
Sure … So for a relatively modest cost savings on the part of the manufacturer the user may have to stake his neck on something that “approaches†the quality of what used to be used, without any specific understanding of what “approaches†actually means. However by any definition, the MIM part is a compromise made for cost-saving purposes.
Not in my guns …
A properly-made MIM part is very durable. The problem lies in the fact that, if the process doesn't go 100% tiny voids can be formed inside the part. You can't see those voids, and will never know they're there until the part gives up and breaks. That's the dangerous part about MIM, it's like a car with brakes that could fail but they'll give no prior warning. For that reason I won't use MIM parts in high-stress areas. I have no problem with an MIM guide rod or mainspring housing, but certainly not an extractor or slide stop!
FEATHERWEIGHT
Member
Tuner, of the production guns that use MIM. Who seems to have better QC?
Springfield,Colt, or Kimber. I am considering a Springer Champion, Colt Commander XSE, or a Kimber Pro Eclipse/Pro CDP. I trust your opinion more that anyone's. This is a range gun. What do you think. Thanks.
Springfield,Colt, or Kimber. I am considering a Springer Champion, Colt Commander XSE, or a Kimber Pro Eclipse/Pro CDP. I trust your opinion more that anyone's. This is a range gun. What do you think. Thanks.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Good MIM?
Howdy Featherweight,
I'd have to say Colt, but it wouldn't be a fair assessment since Colt doesn't use an MIM slidestop or hammer...and they've stopped using MIM extractors.
Springfield's MIM slidestops don't seem to be disintregrating like Kimbers,
as dsk noted...so it's evident that they've got a good vendor for these
parts.
Understand that the small parts issues aren't a failing of Kimber's
pistols as a whole. The guns are well-made and seem to be of good quality, except for the matter of their MIM parts failures. That's a
vendor problem, and it's up to Kimber to get it straightened out...hopefully
before they lose their following. They need to hold the suppliers of these
parts accountable for the problems, and probably adopt a new policy on going with the lowest bidder. It's false economy to save a dollar or two per gun, and lose a hundred thousand sales over the course of a year due to the bad PR they're getting on this thing. If Colt and Springfield can
buy high-quality MIM parts, so can Kimber...and they'd better do it soon,
IMO.
FWIW, you can still upgrade the pistol for less than you could buy one
with zero MIM critical parts...even if you have to pay a smith to prep and
install them. A 1911 with a steel frame and slide and good internals is
well worth 7 or 8 hundred bucks...If the companies would just see this,
and start building really good guns again...but that may be too much to ask. Many stockholders aren't the least bit interested in making a GOOD
product...they only care about a net gain on their investment and 15 cents
more on the dollar dividend per share. When the stock starts to fall, or the dividend stops climbing, they drop it like a bad habit.
Ah well...We can always upgrade.
Luck!
Tuner
Howdy Featherweight,
I'd have to say Colt, but it wouldn't be a fair assessment since Colt doesn't use an MIM slidestop or hammer...and they've stopped using MIM extractors.
Springfield's MIM slidestops don't seem to be disintregrating like Kimbers,
as dsk noted...so it's evident that they've got a good vendor for these
parts.
Understand that the small parts issues aren't a failing of Kimber's
pistols as a whole. The guns are well-made and seem to be of good quality, except for the matter of their MIM parts failures. That's a
vendor problem, and it's up to Kimber to get it straightened out...hopefully
before they lose their following. They need to hold the suppliers of these
parts accountable for the problems, and probably adopt a new policy on going with the lowest bidder. It's false economy to save a dollar or two per gun, and lose a hundred thousand sales over the course of a year due to the bad PR they're getting on this thing. If Colt and Springfield can
buy high-quality MIM parts, so can Kimber...and they'd better do it soon,
IMO.
FWIW, you can still upgrade the pistol for less than you could buy one
with zero MIM critical parts...even if you have to pay a smith to prep and
install them. A 1911 with a steel frame and slide and good internals is
well worth 7 or 8 hundred bucks...If the companies would just see this,
and start building really good guns again...but that may be too much to ask. Many stockholders aren't the least bit interested in making a GOOD
product...they only care about a net gain on their investment and 15 cents
more on the dollar dividend per share. When the stock starts to fall, or the dividend stops climbing, they drop it like a bad habit.
Ah well...We can always upgrade.
Luck!
Tuner
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
re:
Howdy again Featherweight,
I just re-read your post and saw that your gun is to be a range gun.
I'd just shoot it until somethin' lets go and replace it as it happens.
Might be a good idea to have a few spare parts in the range bag, so you don't get a trip cut short. A slidestop and an extractor would be a good idea. The hammer/sear/disconnect set is a "maybe" thing, and all three
parts should be prepped and replaced as a unit. Replacing one of these parts CAN be done, but unless you make all the necessary checks on
the hammer hook and sear primary angle, it's risky. You can wind up with
anything from a flawless swap that works to a gun that won't go bang
to one that will dump the magazine before you can blink. The saying
"No Such Thing as a Drop-In Part" goes double-triple on these three
parts.
Luck!
Tuner
Howdy again Featherweight,
I just re-read your post and saw that your gun is to be a range gun.
I'd just shoot it until somethin' lets go and replace it as it happens.
Might be a good idea to have a few spare parts in the range bag, so you don't get a trip cut short. A slidestop and an extractor would be a good idea. The hammer/sear/disconnect set is a "maybe" thing, and all three
parts should be prepped and replaced as a unit. Replacing one of these parts CAN be done, but unless you make all the necessary checks on
the hammer hook and sear primary angle, it's risky. You can wind up with
anything from a flawless swap that works to a gun that won't go bang
to one that will dump the magazine before you can blink. The saying
"No Such Thing as a Drop-In Part" goes double-triple on these three
parts.
Luck!
Tuner
J. Garand
Member
I sold my Kimber and kept the wilson mags i had for it.
I have a springfield 1911-A1, it won't accept the Wilson mags unless i push the mag release and let the mag go past it. then it locks.
Any thoughts or suggestions would be much help.
I have a springfield 1911-A1, it won't accept the Wilson mags unless i push the mag release and let the mag go past it. then it locks.
Any thoughts or suggestions would be much help.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Mag Problem
Howdy J Garand,
Sounds like maybe a light burr or sharp edge on the little shelf that engages the mag. Try checking the magazine for signs of a deep scratch
where the front radius of the magazine makes contact. It will be on the
right side of the magazine, in line with the rectangular hole. You can also
paint the magazine with magic marker to find out where the contact point is.
If there's a gouged-out area, it's a rough mag catch. If it's got a
polished appearance, it's tight, and the magazine may be a little out-of-spec. If it's a rough spot on the catch, it will probably smooth out in time,
but you can remove the catch and feel for the sharp edge or burr. Remove it carefully by scraping it lightly with a good pocketknife, and follow up with a small piece of 600-grit wet or dry sandpaper...Available at any auto-parts
store in the automotive paint section for about a buck a sheet. Do the
work on the underside of the shelf, and lightly on the edge. Don't get too
aggressive, or the catch won't hold a mag in the well. Scrape, polish, and check it often.
You can also use a fine file to clean up any damaged area on the magazine, which will help without removing any more metal from the catch
than necessary.
To remove the catch:
Use a small screwdriver that will fit the slot in the right side of the catch.
That's NOT a screw, so don't try to unscrew it. It's a cam lock. Push the
button slowly, as though you're releasing a magazine while applying light
pressure in a counter-clockwise direction on the screwdriver. Sometimes
it takes a little back and forth "wiggle" and a little in and out on the button
to get the lock to turn. When it hits the right spot, it will move easily. Turn
it a quarter-turn until it stops, and the whole catch should slip out easily.
If you have to use more than just a very light pressure on the screwdriver, the lock isn't at the takedown point. It doesn't have to be forced.
Luck!
Tuner
Howdy J Garand,
Sounds like maybe a light burr or sharp edge on the little shelf that engages the mag. Try checking the magazine for signs of a deep scratch
where the front radius of the magazine makes contact. It will be on the
right side of the magazine, in line with the rectangular hole. You can also
paint the magazine with magic marker to find out where the contact point is.
If there's a gouged-out area, it's a rough mag catch. If it's got a
polished appearance, it's tight, and the magazine may be a little out-of-spec. If it's a rough spot on the catch, it will probably smooth out in time,
but you can remove the catch and feel for the sharp edge or burr. Remove it carefully by scraping it lightly with a good pocketknife, and follow up with a small piece of 600-grit wet or dry sandpaper...Available at any auto-parts
store in the automotive paint section for about a buck a sheet. Do the
work on the underside of the shelf, and lightly on the edge. Don't get too
aggressive, or the catch won't hold a mag in the well. Scrape, polish, and check it often.
You can also use a fine file to clean up any damaged area on the magazine, which will help without removing any more metal from the catch
than necessary.
To remove the catch:
Use a small screwdriver that will fit the slot in the right side of the catch.
That's NOT a screw, so don't try to unscrew it. It's a cam lock. Push the
button slowly, as though you're releasing a magazine while applying light
pressure in a counter-clockwise direction on the screwdriver. Sometimes
it takes a little back and forth "wiggle" and a little in and out on the button
to get the lock to turn. When it hits the right spot, it will move easily. Turn
it a quarter-turn until it stops, and the whole catch should slip out easily.
If you have to use more than just a very light pressure on the screwdriver, the lock isn't at the takedown point. It doesn't have to be forced.
Luck!
Tuner
J. Garand
Member
Thanks tuner. i didnt want to force it. i have not forced one up until it locked the mag yet. now i have an idea and some starting point without stressing. Thanks!
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