1911 brands and the dreaded MIM parts debacle

[Sniper X]

So here's what I have heard and read. I would not only like to know if it is true, but would like to verify my knowledge if it IS true.

MIM parts are in all entry level 1911s save for RIA 1911's.

MIM parts can not be gunsmithed to make them work better/smoother as in a trigger job can not be done unless the MIM parts are swapped for steel parts.

RIA 1911's are ALL steel as in they don't have any MIM parts in them.

As a result, RIA's can be gunsmithed to make the triggers work better and such.

MIM parts will not last like real steel parts as in bargain basement 1911s will not last like "high end 1911's" and usually when I hear or read this one, it is followed by Kimber, Colt, and so on.

All current 1911's save for the customs or semi customs have MIM parts now to keep costs down.


please let me knwo what if any of this is true.

 

[Zerodefect]

All lower priced 1911's have MIM or cast parts. That is good, and that is bad.

MIM has better tolerances and shape than cast. Making higher quality 1911's that require way less, sometimes no fitting of those MIM parts. Wilson even uses MIM. If your building a cheap pistol, MIM may be better than cheap cast or even cheap billet steel parts. Billet steel parts need fitted and machined properly. Hard to do and stay cheap.

MIM doesn't last as long as billet steel. It isn't as strong. But after 10,000 rounds, you can afford to replace the MIM stuff when it wears out. Ammo cost more than guns, much more than a few parts. Learn how to detail strip, learn what to look for, learn how to "clean up" the MIM parts with a stone, learn when to replace those parts. And it's no longer a big deal.

MIM sears and hammers can be cleaned up for a good trigger feel. Mine lost some of that "glass rod break" feel, but works excellent. Probally more my error/fault than the parts.

Cast is used by companies that can't afford a good MIM machine yet.

Replacing the key MIM/Cast parts as your 1911 ages isn't a big deal. Hammer, sear, and disco are not really expensive. Plungers and pins aren't a big deal either.

MIM is a great way to make a cheap 1911 that's still quite good. You can replace the parts when they wear. If you shoot a ton of ammo, better off going straight to a highend 1911 with good parts. If your hard on your gear like I am, better off going straight to a highend 1911.

For many shooters, especially competitive ones, an all steel EB, DW, or LB may actually be cheaper in the long run. Bottom line is that MIM really isn't a big deal, cheaper, but not damning. A 1911 can be just fine and use MIM. Replace the wear as needed.

 

[Slamfire]

I wore out two hammers on my Kimber. They followed the slide down to half cock. I understand these are MIM. Both hammers were replaced by Kimber, so I am on my third.

The trigger pull on the third hammer was awful, so I took the Kimber to Camp Perry to have the Marine Armorers do a trigger job. They had no expectation of pay, but later they did mysteriously receive a case of Molson

The Marine Armorers refused to work with the sear as the factory kimber sear was worn to an irregular shape. So I walked to the Springfield Armory building and purchased a forged sear.




My trigger job is doing well, but I am wondering if/when this third hammer will start to follow.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'd take a cheaper gun with good MIM parts over one with Cast parts...MIM parts are more accurately spec'ed and don't require the fitting that cheaper cast parts would in cheaper guns.

You have to go pretty high in the quality of 1911s before you get away from cast parts and there will be the argument of to cost/value...even at that level ($3k+)

If you have a gun with MIM parts, replacing the Sear, Hammer and Slide stop would be included in my first trip to a gun smith

 

[JohnBT]

"I wore out two hammers on my Kimber."

You must shoot a lot or have bad luck. My '99 Stainless Gold Match is on the original hammer after 25,000+ rounds.

 

[Scimmia]

MIM parts will not last like real steel parts as in bargain basement 1911s will not last like "high end 1911's" and usually when I hear or read this one, it is followed by Kimber, Colt, and so on.

I'm not going to get into the whole MIM debate, but I would like point out that Kimber has a lot of MIM parts in their guns.

It's my understanding that RIA uses cast parts instead of MIM, which certainly doesn't make them better IMO.

 

[Sniper X]

These aren't statements I am saying are true, I am saying I read or heard them and am asking if they are true. In my own experience I would not know how to tell the difference. Is thee a way to tell?

 

[SSN Vet]

The problem is that people want to have an easy to understand, go/no-go line in the sand... i.e. billet steel is good and MIM is bad, rather than to go deeper in their understanding....

There's good and bad MIM, and there's good and bad cast, and there's good and bad machined from barstock.

Then you have to look at the part being manufactured, and how it is used (stressed) in it's design function.

MIM slide stop or extractor...... definately not good. MIM disconector.... not automatically bad... I've read some of the top pistol smiths state that they prefer the Colt disconnector, and it's been a MIM part for years.

As for gunsmiths doing trigger jobs on MIM sears, it can be done with good results. But if the outer most layer of the heat treat hardened metal is removed by stoning the primary and releaf angles, the longevity of that trigger job will suffer. Then in a year someone will be badmouthing that gunsmith online and demanding that he fix their trigger job for free. So none of us should be surprised if these guys (whose livelyhood depends on their reputation) refuse to do work with any but the best quality parts.

But just because a part is machined from solid steel bar stock, doesn't mean that the metal was of good quality, or that it was properly hardened, or that it was accurately machined. On a dedicated all things 1911 forum recently, one guy (who runs a CNC machining business and makes patented archery products) posted photos in his build blog of a "tool steel" hammer, purchased from a well known semi-custom 1911 shop. The part looked like it was imported from China.... really lousy. Even with all the resources this guy has at his disposal, he couldn't salvage it to meet his personal standards.

If you want "the best....top quality" it probably won't have any MIM in it. But I'd argue that this is less because there are no 1911 part applications where MIM is appropriate and more because they need to be able to put the "no MIM" statement in their marketing info. to attract Joe consumer's $.

Cast is used by companies that can't afford a good MIM machine yet

I disagree with this statement and again would assert that "quality" investment cast by people who really know what their doing (Ruger, Brown, Caspian, etc...) can be top shelf and far exceed the best MIM and be on par with the best tool steel. In the same build thread I refered to earlier, the guy did a detailed comparison between a top brand investment cast thumb safety and a top brand machined from hardened tool steel thumb safety. In many respects the investment cast part was slightly better. Both were excellent (as evaluated by a "real machinist").

Another anecdote, Ed Brown parts are widely considered to be among the best and his Hard Core slide stop is investment cast (as is his extended thumb saftey). We're talking about a top manufacturer who sells all the $2,000 1911s he can make, as well as highly regarded parts.

Gun rags and the internet promulgate a lot of information. Not all of it is accurate. But even more likely, is that they try to simplify detailed information that can't be understood fully with a one paragraph explanation. Sometimes you just have to dive in deep.

 

[Scimmia]

I disagree with this statement and again would assert that "quality" investment cast by people who really know what their doing (Ruger, Brown, Caspian, etc...) can be top shelf and far exceed the best MIM and be on par with the best tool steel. In the same build thread I refered to earlier, the guy did a detailed comparison between a top brand investment cast thumb safety and a top brand machined from hardened tool steel thumb safety. In many respects the investment cast part was slightly better. Both were excellent (as evaluated by a "real machinist").

Another anecdote, Ed Brown parts are widely considered to be among the best and his Hard Core slide stop is investment cast (as is his extended thumb saftey). We're talking about a top manufacturer who sells all the $2,000 1911s he can make, as well as highly regarded parts.

Yes, well done investment casting can be very high quality, but my understanding is that Rock Island parts are generally die cast, which doesn't produce near the same results.

Edit, I don't want it to sound like I'm against RIA, they make good pistols and dominate the low end 1911 market for a reason. The claim that they're better than guns using MIM is what I'm arguing against.

 

[Zerodefect]

The problem is that people want to have an easy to understand, go/no-go line in the sand... i.e. billet steel is good and MIM is bad, rather than to go deeper in their understanding....

There's good and bad MIM, and there's good and bad cast, and there's good and bad machined from barstock.

Then you have to look at the part being manufactured, and how it is used (stressed) in it's design function.

MIM slide stop or extractor...... definately not good. MIM disconector.... not automatically bad... I've read some of the top pistol smiths state that they prefer the Colt disconnector, and it's been a MIM part for years.

As for gunsmiths doing trigger jobs on MIM sears, it can be done with good results. But if the outer most layer of the heat treat hardened metal is removed by stoning the primary and releaf angles, the longevity of that trigger job will suffer. Then in a year someone will be badmouthing that gunsmith online and demanding that he fix their trigger job for free. So none of us should be surprised if these guys (whose livelyhood depends on their reputation) refuse to do work with any but the best quality parts.

But just because a part is machined from solid steel bar stock, doesn't mean that the metal was of good quality, or that it was properly hardened, or that it was accurately machined. On a dedicated all things 1911 forum recently, one guy (who runs a CNC machining business and makes patented archery products) posted photos in his build blog of a "tool steel" hammer, purchased from a well known semi-custom 1911 shop. The part looked like it was imported from China.... really lousy. Even with all the resources this guy has at his disposal, he couldn't salvage it to meet his personal standards.

If you want "the best....top quality" it probably won't have any MIM in it. But I'd argue that this is less because there are no 1911 part applications where MIM is appropriate and more because they need to be able to put the "no MIM" statement in their marketing info. to attract Joe consumer's $.



I disagree with this statement and again would assert that "quality" investment cast by people who really know what their doing (Ruger, Brown, Caspian, etc...) can be top shelf and far exceed the best MIM and be on par with the best tool steel. In the same build thread I refered to earlier, the guy did a detailed comparison between a top brand investment cast thumb safety and a top brand machined from hardened tool steel thumb safety. In many respects the investment cast part was slightly better. Both were excellent (as evaluated by a "real machinist").

Another anecdote, Ed Brown parts are widely considered to be among the best and his Hard Core slide stop is investment cast (as is his extended thumb saftey). We're talking about a top manufacturer who sells all the $2,000 1911s he can make, as well as highly regarded parts.

Gun rags and the internet promulgate a lot of information. Not all of it is accurate. But even more likely, is that they try to simplify detailed information that can't be understood fully with a one paragraph explanation. Sometimes you just have to dive in deep.

Allmost all the good slide stops and thumb safeties are investment cast. I was referring to the sears, I agree with the rest.

The only billet steel SS's and TS's that I can think of are:
-Grieder SS
-10-8 SS
-EGW SS
-Wilson SS/TS
-Dan Wesson TS


I've chopped up the ED Brown TS and GS's. They are quite hard to cut and stone, strong stuff.

 

[Sniper X]

Funny thing is I have never had a 1911 part break in any of my 1911's but, I usually flip them as soon as they are around the 5K round count. But I have had two 1911s that both went well over 20K rounds and never broke anything either. I figure to the best of my recolection, my SA Defender had about 30K rounds thru it and not one part broke, they were ALL Ed Brown parts though!

 

[SSN Vet]

Yes, well done investment casting can be very high quality, but my understanding is that Rock Island parts are generally die cast, which doesn't produce near the same results.

I'm speaking in general terms....not specific to RIA, with which I have no experience.

 

[SSN Vet]

Allmost all the good slide stops and thumb safeties are investment cast. I was referring to the sears, I agree with the rest.

The only billet steel SS's and TS's that I can think of are:
-Grieder SS
-10-8 SS
-Wilson has a billet TS, but it was a GI style last time I saw it.
-Dan Wesson TS
.

EGW also makes them from billet steel.

 

[MCMXI]

The only billet steel SS's and TS's that I can think of are:
-Grieder SS
-10-8 SS
-Wilson has a billet TS, but it was a GI style last time I saw it.
-Dan Wesson TS

All of Wilson Combat's Bullet Proof parts are machined from solid bar stock (billet), and like Ed Brown's Hardcore parts, come with a lifetime guarantee. I guess Ed Brown has enough confidence in his cast Hardcore slidestop to offer such a warranty. I have four of them in 1911s but have a spare just in case.

 

[Zerodefect]

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Bullet-Proof-Parts/products/223/

Learn something new everyday. They have a whole lineup of new billet parts. Not bad prices. Nice slide stop lever.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

Just a note, MIM parts CAN be heat treated, not just case hardened. It goes again back to the fact that there's good MIM and bad MIM and good cast and bad cast.

 

[Sniper X]

I am putting all Wilson parts in my RIA tactical when I get it. It should be a great shooter and look a tad better.

 

[Armed012002]

What's the attraction to buying a low end 1911 and upgrading all its parts with Ed Brown or Wilson Combat parts?

Why not just buy a Colt and upgrade a few parts or just buy the Ed Brown or Wilson Combat?

 

[rellascout]

As others have said there is good MIM and bad MIM. There is good casting and bad casting. There is good forgings and bad forgings.

The reality is that most bad MIM fails quickly so if you get a bum part you know early in the game. The bad part is it fail catastrophically. Nothing like having a thumb safety shear right off the frame or a hammer crack in half. LOL

The other reality that most people will not and do not admit is that most guns will never see enough rounds through them to matter. The avg 1911 sold in the US does not see 5,000 rounds in its lifetime. Most guns in the US are bought shot for a bit and then put in a drawer or a safe. Long term durablity is simply not a "real" issue for most shooters.

Yes there are exceptions but unless you are shooting 10,000+ rounds a year is it really going to matter? I personally like quality tools so I buy nice guns but there is value in lower priced 1911s like the RIA & Norincos of the world. SA started out as a low end 1911 manufacturer. This is also why the Ruger even with its cast frame and mim parts will sell well.

 

[Sniper X]

Because I got a NIB one in trade, free...and where is the attraction of NOT tricking something out? Why do people seem to always suggest the easy way out and just buy a gun for $1000.00~3000.00 when you can build one for 700`800 that will shoot and handle as well and be something you BUILT? AND you'll KNOW every part in it, and know they are all the best parts you can get. One of the best things about a 1911 is the ability of being able to trick it out, and customize it to be your own. .

 

[rellascout]

Because I got a NIB one in trade, free...and where is the attraction of NOT tricking something out? Why do people seem to always suggest the easy way out and just buy a gun for $1000.00~3000.00 when you can build one for 700`800 that will shoot and handle as well and be something you BUILT? AND you'll KNOW every part in it, and know they are all the best parts you can get. One of the best things about a 1911 is the ability of being able to trick it out, and customize it to be your own. .

Some of what you are saying it true but you are putting a Porsche engine in a KIA frame. I personally see no value in that. The RIA is a cheaply cast frame. It was designed and built to get the job done for the lowest cost.

I would not choose it as a platform for a custom build unless I had to. Comparing a RIA with a few nice parts installed to a $3,000 ED Brown/Wilson/Baer or custom/semi-custom 1911 is absurd. It is a $400 gun with custom parts and will never be more than that. It is what it is. I find it laughable that someone who is asking how to deactivate 80 series parts in a 1911 thinks that they can turn a RIA into a Wilson Combat... The reality is that a Ruger or a SA loaded is going to run as well as your upgraded RIA. I can get one of those for $600 give or take. There is a lot to be said for personalizing a 1911 but lets keep some perspective here. Why put rims on a toaster? LOL

I like to drive an Audi A8 that does not mean I want to build one or enjoy working on one. YMMV.

 

[Armed012002]

On this forum and others, I've read about and seen pictures of a lot of broken MIM parts. Mostly slide stops, hammers, and thumb safeties.

Kimber seems to be the largest offender on broken MIM parts. That, of course, could be because Kimbers are full of MIM parts and they sell a lot of guns.

Oddly, how often do you read, see, or hear about revolver lockwork failing?

Smith & Wesson has been using MIM lockwork in their revolvers for a while now and it seems to work just fine.

Perhaps the reason for the reliability of MIM lockwork in a revolver is because those parts are not affected by recoil. In a semiautomatic pistol, several parts are under stress by the recoil operated action.

Personally, I'd rather have a MIM free gun and not take the risk of my slide stop or thumb safety snapping off.

 

[9mmepiphany]

The other reality that most people will not and do not admit is that most guns will never see enough rounds through them to matter. The avg 1911 sold in the US does not see 5,000 rounds in its lifetime. Most guns in the US are bought shot for a bit and then put in a drawer or a safe. Long term durablity is simply not a "real" issue for most shooters.

...and this is the ugly truth

Most folks will never see enough use with the 1911 to tell the difference...there is nothing wrong with that. That is where the lowered priced 1911s are targeted...Kimber was the first to see this and addressed that segment of the market with products geared to a price point based on wants rather than needs...there is nothing wrong with this. If you're not going to put 65k rounds through your gun, what does it matter how many MIM or cast parts there are in it.

The problem and the arguments come in when folks buy into the marketing/urban legend/internet lore that these 1911 are just as well made/fitted/functional as he higher end guns. That is why it is so important, when asking for recommendations, to realistically evaluate and state the intended use of your 1911.

 

[MCMXI]

Comparing a RIA with a few nice parts installed to a $3,000 ED Brown/Wilson/Baer or custom/semi-custom 1911 is absurd. It is a $400 gun with custom parts and will never be more than that. It is what it is.

As an owner of two Kimbers with numerous upgraded parts, two Dan Wessons with a few upgraded parts, and two Ed Browns (third ordered) with no changes, and the only planned upgrades on two of them might be the sights, I'd have to agree with this statement but with one significant caveat:

The Kimbers have taught me so much more about the 1911 platform than the DWs or EBs ever could. Owning a top tier production, semi-custom or custom 1911 doesn't teach you a whole lot about the platform. What's the incentive to learn, troubleshoot or optimize a pistol that runs perfectly from the manufacturer? The typical assumption is that such a 1911 will continue to do so for tens of thousands of rounds.

Reading about the 1911 isn't the same thing as doing the work yourself. I've learned so much over the last few years by upgrading a couple of Kimbers. The only original parts in my Kimber TEII that I use in USPSA matches are the frame, slide, steel MSH/mag well and sights. Every other part is from Ed Brown including the barrel. Is the pistol better (more reliable/accurate/greater longevity) than any currently available TEII ... I'd bet my life on it!! Is it as good as the DWs or EBs .... not with the factory frame and slide it isn't!! Is that a problem ... nope!! I'm even considering replacing the frame with a stainless steel one from Wilson Combat to tighten up the frame to slide fit, but what's my point. If you're realistic about what you're trying to achieve then what does it matter if you have $1,000 worth of parts in a $400 1911. If you're after an education, a MIM filled 1911 is the way to go. If you really want an education, buy a frame and slide from Wilson Combat and build your own 1911. That's my next project.

 

[Sniper X]

Some of what you are saying it true but you are putting a Porsche engine in a KIA frame. I personally see no value in that. The RIA is a cheaply cast frame. It was designed and built to get the job done for the lowest cost.

I would not choose it as a platform for a custom build unless I had to. Comparing a RIA with a few nice parts installed to a $3,000 ED Brown/Wilson/Baer or custom/semi-custom 1911 is absurd. It is a $400 gun with custom parts and will never be more than that. It is what it is. I find it laughable that someone who is asking how to deactivate 80 series parts in a 1911 thinks that they can turn a RIA into a Wilson Combat... The reality is that a Ruger or a SA loaded is going to run as well as your upgraded RIA. I can get one of those for $600 give or take. There is a lot to be said for personalizing a 1911 but lets keep some perspective here. Why put rims on a toaster? LOL

I like to drive an Audi A8 that does not mean I want to build one or enjoy working on one. YMMV.


You seem to be very angry about my reply and reading things into it that I did not say. You are also not being very up to standard of this board by coming right out and being downright condescending.