1911 brands and the dreaded MIM parts debacle

[rellascout]

Please point out to me what part of my post is false? You got you say your piece about how everyone should customize their own gun? I did not point out that that assertion is condescending? YMMV

To each their own.

 

[9mmepiphany]

What's the incentive to learn, troubleshoot or optimize a pistol that runs perfectly from the manufacturer?

There is a lot of truth in that statement, which is why I never suggest starting at the top tier for folks who really want to learn about the platform...mostly because they are afraid to mess with a $$$ 1911.

I started with a Series 70 Colt Combat Commander (note the upper case "S") and one of the first things required before I could carry it as a duty weapon was the ability to detail strip in without tools. Believe me that taught me a lot about what I didn't like about the Series 70 and what needed to be changed just to make it functional for LE work. I taken aback at how many brand new parts were going to be thrown away just so I could shoot it enough to become competent with it.

The nice thing about a Colt is that it holds it's value well in the secondary market

 

[rellascout]

As an owner of two Kimbers with numerous upgraded parts, two Dan Wessons with a few upgraded parts, and two Ed Browns (third ordered) with no changes, and the only planned upgrades on two of them might be the sights, I'd have to agree with this statement but with one significant caveat:

The Kimbers have taught me so much more about the 1911 platform than the DWs or EBs ever could. Owning a top tier production, semi-custom or custom 1911 doesn't teach you a whole lot about the platform. What's the incentive to learn, troubleshoot or optimize a pistol that runs perfectly from the manufacturer? The typical assumption is that such a 1911 will continue to do so for tens of thousands of rounds.

I agree that many people get a lot of joy out of tinkering with things. Does that mean everyone does and that everyone should. For every person who has had a positive experience like you there are probably 10 who have buggered a perfectly working gun. This is one of the reasons used 1911s get a bad rap.

Reading about the 1911 isn't the same thing as doing the work yourself. I've learned so much over the last few years by upgrading a couple of Kimbers. The only original parts in my Kimber TEII that I use in USPSA matches are the frame, slide, steel MSH/mag well and sights. Every other part is from Ed Brown including the barrel. Is the pistol better (more reliable/accurate/greater longevity) than any currently available TEII ... I'd bet my life on it!! Is it as good as the DWs or EBs .... not with the factory frame and slide it isn't!! Is that a problem ... nope!!

That is my point. At least you started with a Kimber frame. That is much better than a RIA. The problem parts of a Kimber are not the frame. IMHO

I'm even considering replacing the frame with a stainless steel one from Wilson Combat to tighten up the frame to slide fit, but what's my point. If you're realistic about what you're trying to achieve then what does it matter if you have $1,000 worth of parts in a $400 1911. If you're after an education, a MIM filled 1911 is the way to go. If you really want an education, buy a frame and slide from Wilson Combat and build your own 1911. That's my next project.

Again as we have dicussed before that is your approach. Did I or anyone else tell you not to do that route. Sniper X basically stated everyone should go that route. My point now as before is that just because I like to shoot quality pistols does not mean I want to build them. I can do basic stuff on my guns. I can replace basic parts, field and detail strip them and get them back together. I pay people who know a lot more than I do to customize or fine tune my toys. They are better at it than I will ever be and I personally do not enjoy the tinkering. I don't reload either.

I could change my own oil and replace my brakes but I don't do that either.

 

[MCMXI]

Again as we have dicussed before that is your approach. Did I or anyone else tell you not to do that route. Sniper X basically stated everyone should go that route.

Let's get something straight here ... I'm not TELLING anyone to do anything and neither is Sniper X and I certainly didn't get the impression that you were TELLING anyone NOT to do something. I don't care if someone buys a $400 RIA or a $3,500 Wilson Combat or builds their own custom from a Caspian frame or a WC frame. I'm simply stating what I've done and what I plan on doing .... that's it. Everyone is free to decide for themselves.

1911s can be a journey, a destination or both. Buying an Ed Brown (or similar) is a destination, buying a Kimber (or similar) is a destination for some but can be a journey for others. Upgrading a Kimber (or similar) to be reliable, accurate and to have longevity can be both a journey and a destination. I've done both but get more pleasure from the latter ... you do what you want ... I'll do the same!!

 

[rellascout]

Because I got a NIB one in trade, free...and where is the attraction of NOT tricking something out? Why do people seem to always suggest the easy way out and just buy a gun for $1000.00~3000.00 when you can build one for 700`800 that will shoot and handle as well and be something you BUILT? AND you'll KNOW every part in it, and know they are all the best parts you can get. One of the best things about a 1911 is the ability of being able to trick it out, and customize it to be your own.

Well 1858 sure sounds like he is telling people what they should do. He questions why anyone would NOT trick out their gun. Seems like he is making a very strong inference that not customizing a gun is the wrong way.

He then asserts that the RIA he is planning on building will "will shoot and handle as well" as a $3000 gun. He also makes a major assumption that there is a best. The "best" is a moving target. The best part for me is not necessarily the best part for you. The best way to get a quality 1911 for me is not the necessarily the same for you. It is a subjective determination.

Why do so many assume that all shooters are tinkerers? Why do so many assume that their pleasure is someone else's pleasure? Just because you want to build a 1911 from the ground up does not translate to everyone who wants a 1911. Enjoy the process. When you are done post some pics and a range report.

PS I will keep sticking with the easy way out. LOL

 

[Zerodefect]

I don't want to get carried away buiding 1911's anymore.

I'd rather get as good of a 1911 as I can and only change minor parts from now on. Even that is quite complex with my tastes.

Even with a high end Les Baer I'm still changing alot of parts:
-sights
-sensitize the grip safety
-cut thumb safety paddle
-VZ grip upgrade
-stone up all the internal parts until they're perfect

Then a trip to the pros to get:
-melonite type refinish
-thick bushing and matching recoil plug
-mild carry melt, maybe undercut the trigger guard.
-Ed Brown big paddle thumb safety (to have two safeties, one for CCW, one for Comp).
-10-8 slide stop

That's a ton of work, on an allready excellent pistol. I don't want to cut thumb safeties and slide stops anymore, it's a pain. With the amount of wear and tear I put into a 1911, I can just have a smith like Severns fix it up for me instead when I'm due for a refinish.

 

[Sniper X]

Lets look at MY point this way. I love to trick things out. Whether they be cars, guns or motorcycles. Just can't leave them stock.

Of course My Wilson Tactical Super Grade is stock and I'll leave it that way. BUT, I have had many tricked out 1911s and even a few that are stock and will remain that way. I am one who loves the 1911 platform for many reasons, but one of the main reasons is it CAN be tricked out and salted to taste with a million different ideas and finishes and treatments.

As such, I would never say, and I have not said, that everyone should do this nor would I try to talk someone out of it if they wanted to do it.

I love my stock 1911s as much as the trick ones. I personally find that the high end ones I own don't need or warrant any trick parts but some may and more power to them if they want to trick out a Wilson or Ed Brown.

I will also say that this site save for a few members has been the best most informative gun site I have been a member of. And I will continue to ask my questions here and generate some answers for those questions asked which I know the answer to.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Well 1858 sure sounds like he is telling people what they should do. He questions why anyone would NOT trick out their gun. Seems like he is making a very strong inference that not customizing a gun is the wrong way.

It didn't sound, to me, like he was telling anyone anything except what he prefers and why. I thought he was just offering an alternative by posing a question...then he was offering the advantages of that alternative.

I also don't see where he assumes that there is a best...certainly not in the section you quoted.

Just because his journey doesn't match yours, there really isn't a need to defend your way...they are both just as valid. Overt defense of your views or attacks on differing views only diminishes the status of your own postings

 

[rogerjames]

Even with a high end Les Baer I'm still changing alot of parts:

No more warranty for you!

 

[Zerodefect]

No more warranty for you!

No, no more warranty. Haha. My DW warranty is probally cooked as well. But If either has a real defect (unlikely I've allready checked them), even with my mods I'm sure they'd make it ok. Not like a properly built and inspected 1911 has much that could spontaneously fail.

But then again I have realistic warranty expectations and am a bit easier to deal with.

No if Kimber saw the inside of my CDP. Whole lot of weirdness inside my CDP. I used that gun to learn about smithing 1911's. If you look close enough, there are some mistakes. :banghead: I knicked up the left rear rail quite a bit, not to mention my dremel melted sights.

Best to make sure your 1911 is fit and in shape bfore you mod it and cook the warranty. I don't expect to have any issues that I could blame on DW or K anymore.

 

[Sniper X]

I was supposed to get the RIA yesterday that I had a plan to trick out. I am getting it today but am thinking I will shoot it first and see how it functions. All I might do is a refinish because even though I wanted the two tone RIA tactical, I am getting the parkerized one because the distributors are all still out of the two tone and it was going to be forever it seemed to get one. Does anyone know what kind of finish that re-finishers still do that looks like hard chrome satin? I hear and see those I know did, no longer do hard chrome for some reason. Probably the EPA has made yet another plating obsolete in the sense it takes too much money to get the permits. Which is why I hear chroming shops all send everything to Mexico now.

 

[SSN Vet]

sad to see an interesting thread turn nasty...

Heck, if Sniper-X wants to tinker with his Rock, more power to him.... in my mind, that's half the fun of owning a 1911 and exactly why I'm saving up for gun-smithing tools and not a Wilson (though if you'd like to bequeath one to me, I promise I'll take really good care of it).

As far as botching a 1911 build goes, that's exactly why you do your first one (couple) on a low buck platform.

As far as moral culpability for the bad reputation of used 1911s... that's easy... buyer beware and educate yourself on how to inspect and function check a 1911. Seller be honest and tell what's been done to the gun.

I don't see wehre Sniper-X claimed that his tweaked Rock was going to be as good and any ones precious

Back to the choosing the right platform to build on....

One that is the most dimensionally similar to a Colt as can be had would be my suggestion.

Taurus uses their own dovetail spec. and I've read of difficulties fitting other aftermarket parts.

I'd suggest carefully reading the recent thread by a forum member with galling on his Ruger after one range trip, before I put money down on one.

 

[CDW4ME]

I too saw several threads (on another forum) of broken MIM thumb safetys, especially ambi.

I sold all my Kimbers (3) that were working fine, but I personally did not like the poential for MIM trouble in the future; I also wasn't too fond of the "in the white" bare metal barrel.

Replaced the MIM infested pistols with 2010 Dan Wesson Valor, 2011 Les Baer UTC, and 2011 ED Brown Special Forces.

Expensive lesson, but education usually is not cheap and confidence / piece of mind is worth the $.

 

[silversport]

would you also sell your pistol if a cast part broke???...throwing out the baby with the bath water seems excessive to me...of course when it sours you on the whole pistol...I totally understand...

Bill

 

[mastiffhound]

I hate to ask but what is MIM? I own a rock island armory 1911 and it has been nothing but a gem. I know very little about 1911's though.

 

[Scimmia]

MIM = Metal Injection Molding. It's a different way of manufacturering metal parts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_injection_molding

 

[Zerodefect]

MIM is molded injected metal or something like that.

You know how plastic models come with all the parts on those molded plastic parts trees?

It's like that, only with molten metal.

 

[mastiffhound]

Thanks guys. If it is being compared to plastic that can't be great. That being said I'll keep my ria untill it breaks, as I've not had one single malfunction. If and when that happens I'll get something better.

 

[Scimmia]

It's like that, only with molten metal.

No, that would be die casting.

Have you ever used a mixture of sawdust and wood glue to fill something? That's similar to the process we're talking about with MIM. Metal powder with a binder is molded on machinery used to make plastic parts, so it's cheaper and safer than something made for molten metal. That part is then taken through some processes to get rid of the binder leaving the metal with some air in it, then heated to bind the metal together.

 

[Zerodefect]

Oh yes, thankyou. I get those mixed up all the time.

It gets pumped in as a powder under pressure, then heated and melted together while still in the mold. Right?

 

[Scimmia]

No, it's actually removed from the mold without heating it, it's just held together by the binder material. It's heated later to hold it together, but not all the way to melting.

 

[MCMXI]

MIM is molded injected metal or something like that.

You know how plastic models come with all the parts on those molded plastic parts trees? It's like that, only with molten metal.

That's close enough. MIM parts have the witness marks from the injection gates just like plastic injection molded parts. The metal powder and plastic has to be heated so that the plastic can flow as a liquid with the metal particles in suspension. It's then injected into a two-part mold, cooled, the mold is opened, the part is removed. At this point the MIM part is like a sponge full of water where the water is plastic fillers. Once the plastic fillers are removed, the part is then sintered which is a heating process which bonds all of the metal particles together and typically reduces the volume of the part which increases density. If you compare the SEM images below, it's obvious that the density of the two parts is different. The black "voids" in the Kimber slide stop showed high Si levels which could be an artifact left over from the plastic fillers. Whether educated or opinionated, I don't want MIM parts used for high stress parts in my 1911s.

Cross section of an Ed Brown Hardcore slide stop pin at 500x

Cross section of a Kimber MIM slide stop pin at 500x

 

[JohnBT]

"I don't want MIM parts used for high stress parts in my 1911s."

That's fine, there are others who feel that way. Good MIM parts still work, even though you don't like them. All kinds of parts have be known to break.

 

[MCMXI]

That's fine, there are others who feel that way. Good MIM parts still work, even though you don't like them. All kinds of parts have be known to break.

For the record, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I have ZERO evidence to show that MIM parts are a problem and I've never had any part on a 1911 break. Then again, I've only owned 1911s for three years and a total round count under 10,000 isn't much of a test. I've owned and shot SIGs since '93, tens of thousands of rounds and never had a SIG break either. Life is a crap shoot!! A forged slide stop could shear off after a few thousand rounds and a MIM slide stop could run perfectly for 20,000 rounds. But, in general, I would think that if you test 1,000,000 forged slide stops and 1,000,000 MIM slide stops, the forged ones would show a smaller standard deviation of either fatigue cycles to failure or yeild strength (just my intuition so don't quote me on that). A steel part can have infinite life under fatigue if the stress is less than 50% of the yield stress. I'm not sure about MIM.

 

[Sniper X]

Seems it boils down to personal preference. I am still going to pt the Wilson parts in my new RIA since I already have them from another project.