1911 brands and the dreaded MIM parts debacle

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1858 said: FINAL COMMENT: One of the most appealing things about the 1911 platform for me is that I don't have to settle for anything. I can buy a $400 1911 and shoot it as is, I can buy a $1,000 Kimber, spend an additional $300 or so and replace lots of parts with quality parts of my choosing, or I can spend $2,000+ and buy a 1911 with a forged frame and slide with no MIM parts. It doesn't get much better than that.

And I'll add one thing, I can buy a 450 dollar pistol and put 200 into it and it'll be a lot nicer to shoot than a 650 dollar pistol. And it'll look better.
 
Are you saying that the sears and disconnectors in the Colts are MIM?

Yessir. That's exactly what I'm sayin'.

Actually, the sear doesn't come under a lot of the sort of stress...impact...that most often causes MIM to fail.

When the hammer is cocked...actually slammed back by the slide...it's caught by the slide after it bounces off the grip safety tang. Then, when the slide rides forward, it lowers the hammer onto the sear much more gradually than one might think. If the hammer fell directly onto the sear after rebounding, the sear crown and the hammer hooks would be destroyed within 50 rounds.
 
Here's a pic

This is the last gun I built. I did let Ted Yost at Gunsite do the ignition parts while I was at Gunsite...while both of us were working there. He used to work in the Pro SHop at Gunsite when Rich Jee owned it. Anyway, this is a SA Defender, but that is about all that is stock, the name that is. Shot this in three gun for a few years.

l.jpg
 
1911Tuner said:
Yessir. That's exactly what I'm sayin'.

Actually, the sear doesn't come under a lot of the sort of stress...impact...that most often causes MIM to fail.

Exactly, and the disconnector is mostly subjected to wear (tribology) where it contacts the slide and frame. So when you replaced the disconnector in one of the Colts, did you replace it with another MIM part?

I wonder how many 1911 owners would choose MIM over cast or machined from bar stock. Let's say your slide stop pin shears off (separates) from the slide release lever ... do you go looking for a MIM part to replace it or do you buy a WC, EB, C&S etc?

This has been fun but I'm off to the Marine Corps range to shoot my Ed Brown Special Forces, Dan Wesson Valor, Dan Wesson V-Bob and an all German SIG P225 ... no MIM for me today!! Life is good!! :D
 
The bottom line and the just good enough to get the job done mentality rules all industries

Depends what "rules" means. I know of several privately owned companies that "manufacture" products which care more about the quality of their product and the satisfaction of their customers than anything else.

Sure, their in niche industries, but a couple of them have grown into pretty decent sized operations. Their stellar reputations bring them a steady stream of enthusiastic, like minded customers, who appreciate what they do and will pay what it cost to achieve the end product.

Not all the world is ruled by the laptop MBAs and corporate culture.
 
So when you replaced the disconnector in one of the Colts, did you replace it with another MIM part?

Nope. I replaced it with a cast Briley disconnect. That was about 75,000 rounds ago, and it's still truckin'.

Let's say your slide stop pin shears off (separates) from the slide release lever.

Never had that to happen. I've seen part of the lug break on machined steel Colt slidestops, though. It didn't shut the gun down, and the only failure was the slidelock function.

I've used cast Brown Hardcore slidestops several times, and haven't had one to fail, even after a lot of use. In fact...one of the high-count Colts has been running with one ever since the OEM stop broke the lug at about 20,000 rounds as described above. It's been there ever since. I got no complaints.
 
What a "top smith" will and won't do is contingent on a lot of variables that only they can speak to, as they are almost all self employed and answer to themselves as boss.

But here's one to ponder...

Many (dare I say most) of these guys are one man shops, or maybe have one apprentice. That means they can only make money when they themselves stand at the bench and do work and they don't have 20 guys out in the shop compounding their productivity. So if they have had bad experiences with certain mfgs frames being out of spec, or odd in some way... they know that what might take them 30 min. on a Colt or Springfield frame will take them 50 min to do on a XYZ frame. If they list $x for that particular task on their standard price list, that means that they make less money on XYZ, or they have to "insult" the customer and explain why they have to pay a higher price, or he can decline the job in favor of catching up on the 10 others he has waiting in line that have frames with which he has had consistantly good past experience. Then when you consider that the smiths reputation is on the line if XYZ guy starts bad mouthing him all over the internet, you can appreciate why they may list "I only work on.... frames" on their web site.

Honestly, when you look at the cost of shipping a handgun, and then add in a top smith's labor and quality parts, the price of the base frame becomes less and less of a % of the total. So it's understandable why their might not be 100 guys beating on the door to have work on XYZ frames.

Now if your talking about a base frame for a DIY project, that's an entirely different conversation.
 
I'll take good cast parts any day over the best MIM parts. I own a CNC machine shop and make many tens of thousands of parts for other industries.

billet steel is good and MIM is bad, rather than to go deeper in their understanding....

No one makes parts from billets, that's a stupid misapplied word people in the car cults gave us. Of all the many tens of thousands of parts we have made they have all been made of barstock, and though I did see a billet once I've never made anything from a billet.

A billet is a huge slab of material generally that gets rolled and turned farther down the line into barstock.

To think that since the parts are made from barstock that was made from billets, ergo the parts are made from billets, is as stupid as saying the parts are made from ore. Even MIM parts originally start as ore. :D
 
I can say brow beating aside, I have learned a lot from my controversial thread here!
Haha... Here's a summary for you from all the experts...

MIM is great, until it breaks...

Cast and Billet are only better than MIM if their processes and clearances are better...

Unless you work for the manufacturer... you will know nothing :banghead:

GOT IT? :p
 
Zerodefect said:
Is barstock just billet shaped into a more managable size? Or is it really different somehow?

It's the same thing. Bar stock is produced by rolling or extruding billet.
 
About three years ago, I had a friend bring a NRM Colt to me along with a handful of parts that he wanted swapped out because he didn't like the idea of MIM in his pistol. In spite of my assurances that the OEM parts would probably be okay...he insisted, so I obliged.

Curious, I decided to put the sear and disconnect to a scientific test.

I laid the sear on an anvil...concave side down...and whacked it 3-4 times with a 4-ounce hammer. It didn't shatter and it didn't crack. When I installed it in a pistol, it functioned. The trigger was a little rough and heavy...but it functioned.

Then, I clamped the disconnect in the vise and whacked it pretty good. It bent, but it didn't break.

I know that this test isn't representative of all MIM sears and disconnects, but it does tend to disprove the notion that they're subject to disintegrate at any moment.
 
It's the same thing. Bar stock is produced by rolling or extruding billet.

I stand corrected for using the term billet steel...

Rolling steel does more than just change the shape, however. It can change the crystal structure, introducing discontinuities in the lattice, which break up slip planes and make the steel harder.

The temperature of the steel when it is rolled makes a big difference as well. with cold rolling producing more hardening tha hot rolling.
 
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