1911 brands and the dreaded MIM parts debacle

[Skylerbone]

Back to the original question and the subsequent answer that there is good and bad MIM. I truly believe that every bit of MIM currently used in 1911s would provide a lifetime of service IF, and it's a big one, everything were fitted properly.

The real problem, and the notion that MIM is bad stems from breakage. It's natural to blame the slide stop rather than the barrel feet that crashed into it. Blame the sear rather than the guy who wanted to "touch up" the angles but got it wrong.

I've read a fair share of threads involving MIM parts breakage but very few that looked for a cause. The answer to most 1911 questions is seldom (correctly) answered with better parts.

If you're interested in a solid build candidate a Colt, SA, Norinco or DW will all be excellent candidates in reference to in spec frames. As far as getting every aspect right because you read a manual, I wouldn't count on it. If you read the manuals, had a machinest background and the necessary tools and fixtures then by all means give it a go. I must concur with the idea that buying an expensive 1911 is money spent not for the sum of its parts alone but for the expertise behind the build.

I'm no expert but I think there's a reason the same dozen or so 1911 builders come up in conversation so often. They do things right and that generally costs more. Everyone is free to attempt as much or as little as they are comfortable with bearing in mind that even expensive lessons can be lessons none the less.

PS, if you've ever looked at Tuner's post count you may get an inkling that the 1911 isn't the platform to tackle without a solid commitment to understanding first.

 

[doggy1953]

Please tell me and maybe others does MIM (MIM parts)mean? Thanks in advance.

 

[ttheel]

Metal Injection molding.

 

[CDW4ME]

That's close enough. MIM parts have the witness marks from the injection gates just like plastic injection molded parts. The metal powder and plastic has to be heated so that the plastic can flow as a liquid with the metal particles in suspension. It's then injected into a two-part mold, cooled, the mold is opened, the part is removed. At this point the MIM part is like a sponge full of water where the water is plastic fillers. Once the plastic fillers are removed, the part is then sintered which is a heating process which bonds all of the metal particles together and typically reduces the volume of the part which increases density. If you compare the SEM images below, it's obvious that the density of the two parts is different. The black "voids" in the Kimber slide stop showed high Si levels which could be an artifact left over from the plastic fillers. Whether educated or opinionated, I don't want MIM parts used for high stress parts in my 1911s.

Cross section of an Ed Brown Hardcore slide stop pin at 500x

Cross section of a Kimber MIM slide stop pin at 500x

THANK YOU for the pics.

Now I have cross sectional pictures that show evidence for why I saw the broken thumb safetys (in the other forum) and further justification (like I needed any) for selling the 1911's I had with supposedly "good enough" parts.

 

[Sniper X]

Personally, I have never heard first hand from anyone I know that a MIM part in their 1911 broke. Or for that matter, one in a revolver either. I have never had it happen. I can say that I am sure some of the newer 1911's I have have MIM parts in them and a couple, like my older RIA has many thousands of rounds thru it.

I am sure if there was a liability with them, the gun manufacturers would not be using them. However, I do see why some feel the need to change them out and will do it on a project pistol I am gong to build since I already have all the parts except for the hammer. I am going to build the old GI ria into a MUE SOC clone and have the necessary parts to do it.

For the things I feel uncomfortable trying for the first time, I will have done by a smith. But I already have this gun sold after it becomes a MEUSOC clone for $1500.00 so there's even profit in there.

 

[rellascout]

I am sure if there was a liability with them, the gun manufacturers would not be using them.

Sorry but this is simply not true. Manufacturers of all kinds let known defects into the market because a bean counter tells them it is cheaper to fix the problems later under warranty or deal with settlements later if and when the problems come to light. Remember the ford Pinto and the Ford Exploder. Squeezing $1.00 more profit out of 1,000,000 units pays for a lot of broken thumb safties or slide stops.



The reality again is that most people who buy guns in this country do not shoot them much. I would be willing to bet money that if you polled 100,000 gun owners on how mnay rounds do they shoot through each gun a year 90% of them do not shoot more than 500 rounds a year.

Most guns in this country never see 2500 rounds in their lifetime. The manufactures know this and they build them to be good enough to meet that very low round count requirement. IMHO this reality is magnified in the low end or low price point mass market guns.

You are the exception to the rule. Most of THR members are the exception and again we are the vast minority of the "gun owners" in this country. I am glad to hear your RIA ran for 10,000+ and is still going. You are not the first person to report this type of durability.

 

[Sniper X]

I know all that, but there are many exceptions where shooters have many thousands of rounds thru guns with MIM parts and no failures too.

 

[JohnBT]

"I have ZERO evidence to show that MIM parts are a problem and I've never had any part on a 1911 break. Then again, I've only owned 1911s for three years and a total round count under 10,000 isn't much of a test."

I've followed the MIM controversy since '99 when I bought a Stainless Kimber Gold Match. My overall impression from all the threads I've read has been that most MIM parts break fairly soon after purchase, say in the first 500 or 1000 rounds. If the part has a flaw it goes ahead and breaks, it's not like it wears out slowly.

Looking at the pics posted, the scale at the bottom is 100um. In inches that's 0.00394 inches. Not the black dots, the distance between two marks on the scale.

 

[Sniper X]

I would also think that gun manufacturers have a lot more liability in a sense than auto manufacturers. Oddly enough, preception is a huge area where lawyers it against clients they are trying to sue for their poor client who had a mishap with a gun, and driving accidents cal almost always be blamed more easily on driver fault. So even though there are many more instances of poorly designed autos and injury or death due to them, I will bet in court it is far easier to prove fault when it is a gun related accident due to a malfunction due solely to perception.

 

[Sniper X]

John, I fully agree on the scale of the pic since it represents a micro vision of the part and as said above, perception is everything and makes one who didn't notice the scale think the part is like "swiss cheese" when if held in the hand even with a powerful loop no one would be able to see any imperfections.

 

[Sean Smith]

As a result, RIA's can be gunsmithed to make the triggers work better and such.

Good luck finding a reputable 'smith that will touch one with a 10 foot pole.

 

[rellascout]

I would also think that gun manufacturers have a lot more liability in a sense than auto manufacturers. Oddly enough, preception is a huge area where lawyers it against clients they are trying to sue for their poor client who had a mishap with a gun, and driving accidents cal almost always be blamed more easily on driver fault. So even though there are many more instances of poorly designed autos and injury or death due to them, I will bet in court it is far easier to prove fault when it is a gun related accident due to a malfunction due solely to perception.

Right because there is aren't operator errors in the realm of firearms.

Seriously you are putting way too much faith in the firearms industry. The mass market firearms makers could give a rat's but about the consumers who actually use their products. They are no different than a car company, a knife company, a drug company, a retailer like Walmart, cell phone company, electronics manufacturer or a fast food joint etc.... They are concerned about the bottom line and 99% of what they do relates directly to it.

I have worked in business long enough and have enough experience in direct manufacturing to know that this is the truth. The bottom line and the just good enough to get the job done mentality rules all industries not just cars and guns.

 

[Sniper X]

I will bet you money he will when he has a hand full of components that go in it made my Wilson.

 

[rellascout]

I know all that, but there are many exceptions where shooters have many thousands of rounds thru guns with MIM parts and no failures too.

If you agree with the fact manufacturers of all kinds put products on the market knowing that they have risk and liablity because it will improve their bottom line I have to ask why did you state:

I am sure if there was a liability with them, the gun manufacturers would not be using them.

 

[rellascout]

I will bet you money he will when he has a hand full of components that go in it made my Wilson.

It all depends on the Smith. There are lots of shops that will not touch a RIA frame.

I know that one of my go to smiths Jim West of Wild West guns will not work on an RIA no matter what parts I want to put into it. Call over to Heirloom Precision and ask Ted Yost, Jason Burton or Steve Bailey to trickout your RIA. I am willing to bet that they do not except the work.

I am willing to bet Wilson won't either. There was a time they would not touch a SA frame. For a long time they would only accept a Colt or a Nork.

Like I said it all depends on the smith. the best in the business are not going to work on a cast frame from RIA. This does not mean they are not good guns for the money you pay. It simply means they are what they are.

 

[Sniper X]

I have two Ted Yost pistols, and woul never ask him or any other custom gun smith to work on an RIA. There is a smith here who works for a local gunshop. He is an older guy of about 65, and will work on anything brought to him. He is also a great 1911 tuner having a lot of both comp experience and the 1911 is the platform that is the reason he is a smith. I am not trying to have this gun (as I said MANY times before in this thread) tuned to be a Wilson or Ed Brown. All I might want the smith to do is install the ignition parts, and the beavertail safety since they are the only parts I need him to install. I already asked him and got a yes and a low quote too so know he will do it. He even thinks the whole project is a great way to get a nice entry level pistol that is worlds better than the original.

 

[rellascout]

I have two Ted Yost pistols, and woul never ask him or any other custom gun smith to work on an RIA. There is a smith here who works for a local gunshop. He is an older guy of about 65, and will work on anything brought to him. He is also a great 1911 tuner having a lot of both comp experience and the 1911 is the platform that is the reason he is a smith. I am not trying to have this gun (as I said MANY times before in this thread) tuned to be a Wilson or Ed Brown. All I might want the smith to do is install the ignition parts, and the beavertail safety since they are the only parts I need him to install. I already asked him and got a yes and a low quote too so know he will do it. He even thinks the whole project is a great way to get a nice entry level pistol that is worlds better than the original.

Good luck... post pics when it is done. I agree that by replacing all the ignition parts you will get a much better gun than the stock RIA.

But honestly I have to ask if you own a Wilson Supergrade + 2 Yost pistols etc... why bother? Why not just sell the RIA and buy some ammo. LOL

Great dicussion its been fun.

 

[Sniper X]

If you have to ask, you'll never understand, that is what I told my ex gf when she asked why I wanted to put a blower on my 1967 Chevelle SS when I already had a 10 second 1969 Chevelle SS......

Hint, it is all about the build and challenge.

 

[rellascout]

Hint, it is all about the build and challenge.

What is the challenge of having a smith do the work for you. I guess that is where you lost me. I could understand if you were taking 1858s approach where he guts the gun and puts his parts of choice in himself. That is a challenge.

Paying someone to do the hard stuff does not sound like much of a challenge to me... if it is then I guess I do understand. This one took all the skills I could muster. LOL

 

[Sniper X]

Well, AGAIN you failed, failed to read what I said.

For the things I feel uncomfortable trying for the first time, I will have done by a smith. Like getting the right 20 thou step and polish on the sear, and hammer, but I will dissassemble and reassemble it all myself and polish the trigger guide and bow, and install the low power hammer spring,, and fit the ambi safety since I have tons of those being a lefty.

 

[Sniper X]

Like when I built my street cars, I never bored my own cylinders, or balanced my assemblies, but I built some street cars that went into the 9s.

 

[Rinspeed]

Like when I built my street cars, I never bored my own cylinders, or balanced my assemblies, but I built some street cars that went into the 9s.

A man has got to know his limitations.

 

[1911Tuner]

Ah! MIM. Here we go again.

MIM can be very good...or very bad. Good MIM is very good indeed. Bad MIM is...horrible. The same can be said of investment castings.

I've seen 1911 MIM sears and disconnects fail within 500 rounds. I've seen it actually outlast machined steel. I've got two early Colt 1991A1s that are approaching 200,000 rounds each. Both are on their 3rd barrels, and both have had slide/frame refitting. Both are still operating on the original sears. One has the original disconnect. Both also have the original cast mag catches. Both have the original thumb safeties.

Investment cast frame? If it's a good casting, it's a non-issue. The slide is where it all happens. That's where you don't want a casting.

There's one thing for sure. Love it or hate it...it's here to stay.

 

[MCMXI]

Looking at the pics posted, the scale at the bottom is 100um. In inches that's 0.00394 inches. Not the black dots, the distance between two marks on the scale.

No, the distance between the left-most and right-most marks is 100 microns. Therefore, the "typical" diameter of the black dots (voids) is approximately 5 microns. So what's the "typical" crack tip width (in microns) in low carbon steel allloys?

My concern with MIM is that it's a statistical process with lots of "ifs". Each step of the process below has to be right so I prefer to take my chances with "machined from bar stock" if at all possible.

• Metals Powders
• Binders
• Mixing
• Moulding
• De-binding
• Sintering
• Post-sintering operations

Getting the de-binding, sintering and post-sintering just right for large batches of small parts, and then validating the process, is no easy task. Every sear and hammer in Dan Wesson 1911s are checked for hardness. I've never seen any hardness test indicators on MIM parts. So how are manufacturers like Kimber verifying that each and every MIM part is to spec in terms of hardness or strength? Basically they don't. They use a statistical method such as those pioneered by Deming and hope for the best. As rellascout pointed out, the vast majority of shooters aren't going to push their 1911s to the limit. All Kimber has to do is deal with the few that do, or the few that have MIM parts breaking in the first 500 to 1,000 rounds ... a theory that I don't agree with at all given that fatigue is a major issue with any part subjected to stress cycles. That's like saying that as long as an aircraft's fuselage doesn't fail in the first 500 to 1,000 hours, it's good to go for 2,000,000 hours! Stress cycles can lead to crack initiation, crack growth and catastrophic failure in the form of fast fracture.

I've got two early Colt 1991A1s that are approaching 200,000 rounds each. Both are on their 3rd barrels, and both have had slide/frame refitting. Both are still operating on the original sears. One has the original disconnect. Both also have the original cast mag catches. Both have the original thumb safeties.

Are you saying that the sears and disconnectors in the Colts are MIM?


FINAL COMMENT: One of the most appealing things about the 1911 platform for me is that I don't have to settle for anything. I can buy a $400 1911 and shoot it as is, I can buy a $1,000 Kimber, spend an additional $300 or so and replace lots of parts with quality parts of my choosing, or I can spend $2,000+ and buy a 1911 with a forged frame and slide with no MIM parts. It doesn't get much better than that. As I've said before, everyone can decide for themselves. No one is forcing anyone to do anything. If you're ok with MIM then that's all that matters to you. A MIM grip safety is fine with me but a MIM slide stop, thumb safety, sear, hammer, disconnector, barrel link, extractor, ejector or hammer strut isn't. My 1911s, my money, my time, my choice.

 

[Sniper X]

A man has got to know his limitations.

And those of his tool budget!