Do you trust the 1911 for combat?
- Thread starter Dr. Loomis
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Not USMC. Army. Yes, personally owned firearms are (with rare exception) forbidden. My 1911A1 is issue (and yes, the old warhorse is still at war; see link below...).
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3446923#post3446923
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DougDubya
Member
GI's tend not to use handguns for serious business. That's why God gave them Garands, Ma Deuce's, M-16's and M-79's.
That said, plenty of FBI agents and law enforcement officers HAVE utilized the 1911 to excellent effect.
It's just that handguns are very rarely called upon as anything other than a badge of rank in military service. Outside of the military, though, 1911's have been used so extensively that there are solutions and training to handle each and every problem that could conceivably come up.
JTQ
Member
I'll admit I'm not a "Kimber guy", but I'm pretty sure the Kimber SIS does not have the Kimber Swartz style firing pin safety. If it did it would be designated by the "II" indicating it has the Swartz style safety.
HippieMagic
Member
Honestly... A gun is a gun. If it is designed well then it should work fine. The 1911 is a relic and nobody here can say otherwise however it is a well designed relic and still functions well regardless of how old the design may be. To say that the 1911 is perfect because it has been around 100 years is a poor argument in any form... The sword has been around longer... Bows too... but it doesn't mean there aren't better alternatives.
The funny thing about a weapon is that it doesn't matter what it is... the weapon can be as stupid as a rock yet still defend your life in a combat situation. It is the same with guns... ones attitude, preference, and ability towards a weapon or platform is far more important than the platform itself. If the weapon does as it should there is no reason it shouldn't be good for combat. Confidence in yourself, your platform, your training, or abilities is far more important than caliber or platform...
The funny thing about a weapon is that it doesn't matter what it is... the weapon can be as stupid as a rock yet still defend your life in a combat situation. It is the same with guns... ones attitude, preference, and ability towards a weapon or platform is far more important than the platform itself. If the weapon does as it should there is no reason it shouldn't be good for combat. Confidence in yourself, your platform, your training, or abilities is far more important than caliber or platform...
I love my Kimber Pro BP Ten II, which is a high capacity 1911. 13+1. That said, if I had to go to battle, as much as I love my Kimber, I'd be taking my trusty G19 with the tons of magazines I already have, including several 33 rounders as spares. I've owned it since 1994 and shot the crap out of it. Other than bad ammo, it has never ever malfunctioned once and it's one tough pistol. It barely even shows any holster wear after 10+ years of carry. It's also the easiest semi-auto out there to detail strip all the way down. Very low parts count and spare parts kits are VERY inexpensive. Then you can NOT deny the convenience of battlefield ammo pick-up as 9mm is currently the NATO pistol round of choice. And, yes, I served in the military for 12 years.
My two most carried pieces. G19 and Kahr PM9.
My two most carried pieces. G19 and Kahr PM9.
Steering thread drift back to the OP's original question:
Yes, I trust the 1911 for combat. For reasons that others have noted, I implicitly trust the 1911A1 as issued to the military (I've been carrying them for over 30 years). That is both the answer and the problem in 2009. Everyone makes a 1911. None of them are truely MILSPEC "G.I." guns.
All current manufacturers incorporate several tweaks to the design; some minor, some major.
The Target Competion Guns of the 60s turned into the Gaming Race Guns of the 70s leading to the factory semi-custom production guns of the 80's and ultimately resulting in nobody producing GI-like guns in the 90s (except for...wait for it... Colt
). Form overcame Function. The primary attribute provided by the military weapon (reliability under all conditions) was subordinated to a market driven demand for more accuracy and inclusion of questionable cosmetic features or faddish performance parts.I've little use for excessively tight slide to frame fit, front cocking serrations, straight mainspring housings, adjustable sights, full length guide rods, tools required to disassemble, external extractors, ambidexterous thumb safeties, Swartz safeties, Series 80 firing pin safeties, MIM parts, plastic parts, or cast parts.
I do think that modern high visibility fixed sights, light rails, and a factory or aftermarket throating & porting are definite improvements to the original. However, even with stock GI itty bitty sights and feeding 230 grain FMJ, the 1911 is a superlative combat handgun.
Argentine Systemas and Chinese Norincos are just about dead nuts true to the original design. Springfield "MILSPEC" base guns are close, but don't use all of the same forged/milled small parts as the originals. Smith & Wesson, Dan Wesson, Para-Ordnance, and Kimber all make nice expensive guns (with a lot of the previously mentioned enhancements). Rock Island Armory makes a pretty good basic GI clone using a cast frame and at a price anyone can afford. Although I prefer a forged steel frame, cast frames can work just fine. Caspian seems to have done pretty well with the process for decades
. I think today's Colt Government Models continue to come closest to the ideal. I also trust their Commander sized models. I've got little use for anything smaller (Officer Models and other chopped versions). These invariably wind up needing a differently designed spring setup in order to function properly. I simply prefer the original design, able to be field stripped or detail disassembled by hand and with no tools other than the pistol's own parts (yes, you can really do this
).I have a short list of what I consider to be combat ready service sized semi-auto designs that I'd trust implicitly for CCW self defense . In no particular order:
1. 1911A1 (.45 ACP Military Issue or Colt Government/Commander Models)
2. USP/C (.45, .40, or 9mm)
3. CZ75/85/PO1 (9mm)
4. SIG (220 in .45 ACP or 226/228 in 9mm)
5. P35 (9mm Browning HP)
6. Glock 17/19 (9mm)
If I absolutely had to, I'd be willing to break a brand new specimen out of the box, load, walk out the door, and face a gunfight. Naturally, NO pistol can be trusted without test firing, but these come as close as you are going to get for functional reliability and proven combat performance.
Sorry...I get preachy.
Get the Kimber.
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The problem with the 1911 is that everyone makes one, and it seems like everyone has some "improvement" that they feel needs to be made to the gun. Some of the improvements really are improvements (the gun does have an -A1 designation, you know), some are improvements in a given situation but not necessarily good for general use, and some are dubious at best. I won't get into the specifics, it's beyond my ken and there are entire swaths of the internet devoted to the debate, just like 9mm vs .45 and 5.56 vs 7.62 NATO.
Suffice it to say that the basic 1911 design is about the most time-tested, combat-proven design in the world (the basic Mauser action and the Mosin-Nagant may have it beat, depending on how you prefer to define stuff), and a well-executed gun that is faithful to the design will run just fine. The more you deviate from the design, the more issues you may have. Would I trust my life to a 1911? Yes, but it would be one that was not all fancy-pants bells and whistles, and it would be one that I tested thoroughly. The same goes for any other gun.
Remember that you don't need extended mag wells and safeties that look like soup spoons and supertight match-grade accuracy for a defensive gun. You need something that you can run, and that will go bang when ordered to do so. Less is more.
Mike
Suffice it to say that the basic 1911 design is about the most time-tested, combat-proven design in the world (the basic Mauser action and the Mosin-Nagant may have it beat, depending on how you prefer to define stuff), and a well-executed gun that is faithful to the design will run just fine. The more you deviate from the design, the more issues you may have. Would I trust my life to a 1911? Yes, but it would be one that was not all fancy-pants bells and whistles, and it would be one that I tested thoroughly. The same goes for any other gun.
Remember that you don't need extended mag wells and safeties that look like soup spoons and supertight match-grade accuracy for a defensive gun. You need something that you can run, and that will go bang when ordered to do so. Less is more.
Mike
TexasBill
Member
Over the nearly 100 years since its adoption by the U.S. Army, probably a million or more people have trusted the .45 automatic pistol and it has a pretty good record of meriting that faith. Carry extra magazines and practice reloading (that's true of any handgun you carry, pistol or revolver).
As a cop, your needs for an off-duty gun do vary. Unlike a citizen acting in self-defense, you also will probably be required to enforce the law plus you have a higher risk of being targeted by those who have a grudge against you or cops in general. So it's important that you feel confidant, competent and comfortable with whatever you carry. If the .45 isn't your cup of tea, for whatever reason, find something else. There are lots of fine handguns in .40 caliber and 9 mm, both of which offer more magazine capacity and are proven combat rounds. You want your shoes to fit right; there's no reason your sidearm shouldn't fit, as well.
BTW: If gang encounters are a real concern, a Ruger Mini-14 in the car can be really handy. One of the Tactical versions with a 30-round magazine should give you enough firepower to deal with the situation and will cost less than most of the AR clones.
As a cop, your needs for an off-duty gun do vary. Unlike a citizen acting in self-defense, you also will probably be required to enforce the law plus you have a higher risk of being targeted by those who have a grudge against you or cops in general. So it's important that you feel confidant, competent and comfortable with whatever you carry. If the .45 isn't your cup of tea, for whatever reason, find something else. There are lots of fine handguns in .40 caliber and 9 mm, both of which offer more magazine capacity and are proven combat rounds. You want your shoes to fit right; there's no reason your sidearm shouldn't fit, as well.
BTW: If gang encounters are a real concern, a Ruger Mini-14 in the car can be really handy. One of the Tactical versions with a 30-round magazine should give you enough firepower to deal with the situation and will cost less than most of the AR clones.
I do trust a 1911 and have been carrying them for most of over 40 years.
The only caveat I add is be sure the agency you're going to work for allows a 1911 for off duty carry. If you're on a tight budget I'd hate for you to spend your money for a 1911 and not be able to carry it. But if another gun is in your budget well...more is better usually.
The only caveat I add is be sure the agency you're going to work for allows a 1911 for off duty carry. If you're on a tight budget I'd hate for you to spend your money for a 1911 and not be able to carry it. But if another gun is in your budget well...more is better usually.
Lonestar49
Member
There are some good choices out there in SAO
...
I would add, IF it is a matter of SAO, cocked and locked, in 45, as mentioned, a 4" SA lightweight fully loaded Champion is a good choice, or you could look at a Sig SAO in P220, their thinnest model, same size, Commander size, as with many 4" 1911's, or their smaller version in SAO, the P220 Carry..
With the Sigs, there will be no break-in required, and they will feed and shoot JHP's from the get-go, along with, they are one of the easiest guns to disassemble, inspect, clean, and reassemble, out there, bar none.
Luck,
Ls
...
I would add, IF it is a matter of SAO, cocked and locked, in 45, as mentioned, a 4" SA lightweight fully loaded Champion is a good choice, or you could look at a Sig SAO in P220, their thinnest model, same size, Commander size, as with many 4" 1911's, or their smaller version in SAO, the P220 Carry..
With the Sigs, there will be no break-in required, and they will feed and shoot JHP's from the get-go, along with, they are one of the easiest guns to disassemble, inspect, clean, and reassemble, out there, bar none.
Luck,
Ls
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kanewpadle
Member
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2009
- Messages
- 118
Like a couple others have said. Yes. But only mine. A Dan Wesson. No firing pin block. No full length guide rod. Period.
More people buy 1911 style guns and don't know how to fight with them. If you know how, do so.
No disrespect to Kimber or anyone that carries one. But it would to be a Custom Shop gun or none at all. I have owned five and had a FEW problems. It could happen with any manufacturer but Kimber is NOT the best.
Kimber won the LAPD contact yes. I suspect the reason was also price. Not quality.
Just my experience however.
More people buy 1911 style guns and don't know how to fight with them. If you know how, do so.
No disrespect to Kimber or anyone that carries one. But it would to be a Custom Shop gun or none at all. I have owned five and had a FEW problems. It could happen with any manufacturer but Kimber is NOT the best.
Kimber won the LAPD contact yes. I suspect the reason was also price. Not quality.
Just my experience however.
schmeky
Member
Can't remember the last time my Kimber Custom Classic malfunctioned; my Les Baer .45 has never bobbled, ever.
Yes, I trust my 1911's implicitly.
Yes, I trust my 1911's implicitly.
sokygunner
Member
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2009
- Messages
- 89
I have been in law enforcement for about 5 years, here's what I can tell you about a good 1911. First things first, I have carried a variation of the Kimber Custom II for a duty weapon, that combined with some good 8 round wilson combat or chip mccormick mags, I always used wilson, you will never be out gunned when it comes to a fight with handguns. The guns are perfectly reliable and incredibly accurate. Secondly, and very important, your sidearm is there as a primary response, but it is used to fight your way to your long gun be it a shotgun or an assault rifle. If you are off duty and don't have a long gun readily available, just remember this...shoot and move, don't hang around. Being from an infantry unit you should be very familiar with the concepts of camo, cover, and concealment. Get to cover and start calling for help. Most of your run ins with these type of individuals who may hold a grudge are going to be the kind where they are either going to get the jump on you and it won't matter if you have a single stack .45 or a 15 round mag of .40, you are going to be a bad spot either way, also they aren't the kind that stick around usually and fight, they shoot and run and so should you. The 1911 is probably the best side arm you can get if you are talking about being a natural extension of you, and if you can shoot well with a beretta m9 you will shoot extremely well with a 1911. I carry the beretta for work these days, but when I can get my 1911 out the grip angle and sight picture is second nature to me because of the beretta. Whether you have 8 rounds in your mag or 15, it doesn't matter, find cover, call for assistance, and use good shot placement...the idiots who you usually encounter on the street spray and pray, you are better than that. Make each round count no matter what your mag capacity...and if you have a long gun nearby use your sidearm to get their heads down and get to cover and when you come back up come back up with a rifle or shotgun and end the situation.
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i have likely burned what must be approaching 50K rounds by now through 1911 style pistols. gotta get the production numbers up soon to catch 1911Tuner. like him, I HAVE LEARNED THIS SYSTEM, and would not consider any other handgun for saving my assets.
that said, long after i was well invested into the course, a guy told me what i believe to be very good advice for someone trying to decide what handgun to use for the most dangerous species. first, decide what recoil level you are comfortable with between .38/9mm and 45 ACP. many have used less than the lower threshold with good results. it is just a line that is usually considered the lowest you can count on. above 45 ACP usually starts taking too long for a second shot.
then go to a user friendly store(s) and pick up every one they have on the counter that is within your comfort level for shooting. pick a target on the wall, about pie plate sized. close your eyes and point the weapon at where you remembered the target being. the ones that are pointing at same target when you re-open your eyes most reliably are what you should consider buying.
statisticly, most shootings occur at night, and at bad breath ranges. a hangun that points instinctively for you can be a real bonus in that scenario.
gunnie
that said, long after i was well invested into the course, a guy told me what i believe to be very good advice for someone trying to decide what handgun to use for the most dangerous species. first, decide what recoil level you are comfortable with between .38/9mm and 45 ACP. many have used less than the lower threshold with good results. it is just a line that is usually considered the lowest you can count on. above 45 ACP usually starts taking too long for a second shot.
then go to a user friendly store(s) and pick up every one they have on the counter that is within your comfort level for shooting. pick a target on the wall, about pie plate sized. close your eyes and point the weapon at where you remembered the target being. the ones that are pointing at same target when you re-open your eyes most reliably are what you should consider buying.
statisticly, most shootings occur at night, and at bad breath ranges. a hangun that points instinctively for you can be a real bonus in that scenario.
gunnie
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Follow-up info
in way of statistical references, pls see:
http://firearmusernetwork.com/2009/02/25/point-shooting-vs-sight-shooting-rand-report/
QUOTE FROM SAME:
..."FBI statistics show that life threat incidents happen at very close ranges. Between 1989 and 1998, of the 682 local, state, and federal law-enforcement Officers in the United States who died because of criminal action, nearly 75 percent (509) received fatal wounds while within 10 feet of their assailants..."
gunnie
in way of statistical references, pls see:
http://firearmusernetwork.com/2009/02/25/point-shooting-vs-sight-shooting-rand-report/
QUOTE FROM SAME:
..."FBI statistics show that life threat incidents happen at very close ranges. Between 1989 and 1998, of the 682 local, state, and federal law-enforcement Officers in the United States who died because of criminal action, nearly 75 percent (509) received fatal wounds while within 10 feet of their assailants..."
gunnie
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I own a G17 and its nice but I naturally shoot better, I feel safer with, and I appreciate the caliber more on my smith 1911 (with all the bells and whistles including external case ejector).
I haven't had a jam because I use the right ammo and the things shoots very well. I'd rather carry my 1911 than my g17. The Glock is a bit more scary to carry with one in the chamber, who needs 17 rounds, and the barrel doesn't have the same diameter haha.
I wouldn't want to be looking down the barrel of any gun but the .45 barrel diameter would scare me a little more than the 9. Beside, it's the 1911 man. They DID carry them in wartime.
That being said, I'm just a range "warrior." I can shoot pretty good but I've never had to trust any weapon in wartime. I just think the design of the 1911 is superior. Oh, I can also take mine down without tools.
Regards...
I haven't had a jam because I use the right ammo and the things shoots very well. I'd rather carry my 1911 than my g17. The Glock is a bit more scary to carry with one in the chamber, who needs 17 rounds, and the barrel doesn't have the same diameter haha.
I wouldn't want to be looking down the barrel of any gun but the .45 barrel diameter would scare me a little more than the 9. Beside, it's the 1911 man. They DID carry them in wartime.
That being said, I'm just a range "warrior." I can shoot pretty good but I've never had to trust any weapon in wartime. I just think the design of the 1911 is superior. Oh, I can also take mine down without tools.
Regards...
Yet more
"...IN 2004, more law enforcement officers, 17, died as a result of attacks that occurred from 8:01 PM to midnight than in attacks at any other time of day..."
above from:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2004/section1felonkilled.htm
the FBI statistics.
gunnie
"...IN 2004, more law enforcement officers, 17, died as a result of attacks that occurred from 8:01 PM to midnight than in attacks at any other time of day..."
above from:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2004/section1felonkilled.htm
the FBI statistics.
gunnie
ceadermtnboy
Member
I can only refer you to the example set forth by Alvin York, and many other Medal of Honor recipients. Hell yes the 1911 is reliable in combat!!
LightningJoe
Member
Your question seems nonsensical. Few designs (or perhaps none) are as combat-tested as the 1911. If you don't trust a 1911, what could you possibly trust?!
I think it's been aluded to but to state it clearly It depends on the manufacturer. RIA, Springfield, Dan Wesson, Colt no problem. Llamma, not so much
And FYI to those who haven't picked up on it an 18Z is a Special Forces 1st SGT. I think the man knows his business
And FYI to those who haven't picked up on it an 18Z is a Special Forces 1st SGT. I think the man knows his business
tactikel
Member
Is the 1911 a reliable combat weapon?, of course-Is it the best combat sidearm now available? not really. Keep in mind that when the 1911 came into service the "Jenny" was the state of the art aeroplane, the Model T not even on the market 
-John Browning made several improvements (the Hi-Power), Glock took modern materials, design improvements, and markets a world class police/military weapon. The Croatians improved the Glock, now marketed by Springfield as the XD-45. Why is the XD superior to the 1911 IMHO? NO: external hammer to fuss with, no external safety, no flat springs, no barrel bushing, no barrel link to break, full case head support, far less weight, oh and it packs 6 more rounds! Before I'm flamed I have owned a 1911 Colt Govt, a .45 Combat Commander, and a Hi-Power- aside from the trigger I like the XD the best.
-John Browning made several improvements (the Hi-Power), Glock took modern materials, design improvements, and markets a world class police/military weapon. The Croatians improved the Glock, now marketed by Springfield as the XD-45. Why is the XD superior to the 1911 IMHO? NO: external hammer to fuss with, no external safety, no flat springs, no barrel bushing, no barrel link to break, full case head support, far less weight, oh and it packs 6 more rounds! Before I'm flamed I have owned a 1911 Colt Govt, a .45 Combat Commander, and a Hi-Power- aside from the trigger I like the XD the best.- Status