Does a .45 really need to expand?

[zt77]

I for one am happy to be alive and i wouldnt be if that pistol had been loaded with anything besides 230 grain hardball.

 

[SomeDude]

A 230 grain FMJ .45 round has 356 ft lbs of energy when leaving the barrel. The 115 grain 9mm FMJ has 362. (from Winchester's website) What does this mean? I really have no idea, but it's something to think about.

 

[outerlimit]

The thread starter raises an interesting question. Thinking about this a little, it seems that the .45acp should do just fine without expanding. You'll make a bigger hole than a 9mm fmj, and you'll have the mass of 230gr. behind it. In it's non-expanded state it would be approximately the size of an expanded 9mm and also penetrate deeper than a 9mm hollowpoint would and not be stopped as easily by bone or thick clothing. .45fmj may just work better than hollowpoint depending on the situation.

@SomeDude,
Energy means very little when comparing cartridge power. A bullet roughly twice the mass of a 9x19mm (.45acp for example) traveling at only 200-300fps slower produces about the same energy. However the .45acp recoils considerably more and produces much more momentum.

When you use only energy (joules or ft/lbs) to compare handgun rounds, it makes it appear as though you can trade off half the size for a little more speed, unfortunately that's not the case. (pardon the pun )

That doesn't mean I don't like 9x19mm, I think it's one of the best cartridges ever designed. But there's no free lunch.

 

[Pulse]

What does this mean?

that Winchester loads annemic ammo?
a 115gr 9mm should have about 480ft/lbs or 650J of energie.
a 230gr .45 should have about 520ft/lbs or 710J of energie.

either way, a FMJ will have little energie transfer.
unless a major bone is hit and shattered, you will rip a hole a little smaller then the caliber in to the target.

 

[outerlimit]

Pulse, are those numbers with a longslide? Or Double Tap ammo? Looks a little high for standard pressure.

 

[Pulse]

Pulse, are those numbers with a longslide? Or Double Tap ammo? Looks a little high for standard pressure.

data is from the RUAG SINTOX Action line of ammo.
they might be +P, not sure.

 

[SomeDude]

If Winchester is anemic so is the rest of the industry. Remington, Federal, Magtech and Black Hills all have virtually identical ballistics. Now these rounds aren't "lawyer approved" like RUAG but I'm sure they'd still get the job done.

 

[outerlimit]

Most makers load some 'anemic' ammo and some hotter stuff. Sometimes the weaker stuff works better in certain guns, ect. There's always a place for wimpier loads.

 

[Monster Zero]

How about a really short barrel?

Like in one of the soon-to-be-available Charter rimless revolvers, or any other snub-nose revolver. The .45acp version of the Charter will have a 2.2 inch barrel. Short enough to lose significant velocity, I'd say. Enough that one couldn't assume that "expanding" bullets would expand.

So, if someone takes an interest in one of those rimless revolvers, which is it - 230gr ball or a hard-cast bullet of some kind? (Jammin along at what, 750 fps? Just guessin.)

Or does Speer or anyone else make a "short barrel" load for .45acp?

 

[.38 Special]

As was mentioned above, 230 hardball seemed to do just finefrom 1911 until 1985, saving more American soldiers' lives than any other handgun.

As Colonel Cooper put it with regard to the .30-30 and whitetail deer, the body count does not necessarily mean it was the best for the job, just that it was present when a great deal of shooting took place.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

A .45 is what a 9mm want to be when it grows up...... We can only hope a 9mm expands to .45 at least HALF way thru the target. If it then gets to .50, it might be as effective as a .45.

 

[zt77]

if only the .45 fmj left that big of a hole on its way out

 

[HorseSoldier]

All pistol rounds are decidedly poor manstoppers, despite internet mythology and such. 45 ACP gives marginally better thump at the cost of reduced magazine capacity.

For a civilian self-defense weapon where you're likely to only shoot 3-5 rounds, the trade off may be worth it. In a military weapon you may be using to deal with a comparatively large group of bad guys and a much more sustained fire fight, I'd give the advantage to more rounds in the gun.

 

[BlindJustice]

I've got more .45 ACP and .45 Auto RIm with
hardcast semi-wadcutter - the sharp shoulder of a
SWC is considered a "cutting edge." and penetration
is not a problem.

Leadhead 200 gr. SWC @ 1,000 FPS

Feeds well in my 1911, accurate in my
625 Revolver as well.

Not that I don't stock Double Tap with Gold Dot
Jhps as well.

YBoreMV but a .45 is a .45

Randall

 

[rockyourglock]

If they dont expand your just going to have a nice hole---you better hope you hit something important in there! expansion is a must for me!

 

[gglass]

I keep hoping that Hornady comes out with the 45acp in their new "Critical Defense" load. That would solve all the discussion.

Behold the power of marketing! There have been exactly "ZERO" independent comparisons of Hornady's new super round, but that marketing video sure has people buzzing. I just love to see the herd mentality of people in action.

I want to like Hornady's Critical Defense, but I will reserve my judgment until some real and definitive comparisons are made.

 

[mljdeckard]

No one is ever going to invent a hp that will perform correctly 100% of the time under all circumstances. I will be very surprised if the Hornady CD load significantly outperforms the HST.