Does Anybody know about the feud between Glock and Portland (Oregon) Police

[kd7nqb]

So, in the course of my job I work with several LEO's on a nightly basis one of them was telling me the "official" reason that they can only have 9mm for duty weapons.

1. PPB (Portland Police Bureau) is a Glock exclusive department
2. A few years back 2 Glocks in .45acp "blew up" while in use on a training range
3. PPB immediately suspended the use of all .45acp's while they investigated and called Glock
4. During intial discussions Glock said the failure was due to bad ammo
5. Glock offered to fly several of the PPB range guys AND the two busted weapons to inspect them at a Glock office
6. PPB refused this offer and instead hired an independent firearms/ metalurgy inspector to find out the cause of what happened
7. The independent firm said that it was caused by bad ammo NOT bad Glocks.
8. During this process all of the current .45acp's had been replaced with 9mm's and range qualification scores went up among officers
9. The NEW reason that officers cant have the .45acp is that qualification scores are up and a 9mm with +p ammo is just as effecting at stopping bad guys.

Thats the story as I heard it I would love to know if you guys know anything more, I made a few Google searches but did not find any clear answers.

Also has any other department had big disputes with glock? I know NYPD had the phase 3 issue dont know how that ended.

 

[Shweboner]

I think the real reason they went with 9mm is that they could have higher capacity magazines, so they could put more rounds into suspects.

Yeah thats right, I said it. Say what you will, but the police in and around the Portland area sure like to squeeze their triggers, although lately they've favored tazing people to death. So many options...:banghead:

 

[El Tejon]

Do not know about disputes but last year Indiana State Police had several blow ups with G22s. They know have G17s.

Of course, Glock was having blow ups with their .40s when I sold guns when the 22 and 23 came out. So, it's nice to see that some things don't change.

 

[bakert]

Haven't heard the story but last week the guy that runs the indoor range I shoot at told me a number of departments nationwide have gone back to 9MMs after blowups. They're a Glock dealer and he blames the ammo. Quite a few police from Louisville Metro and smaller departments shoot here so his info may be right.

 

[El Tejon]

Don't know about ammo. I saw a lot of bullet set back with the .40 from continually fiddling with the 1st and second round as a result of administratively unloading and loading.

Of course, I've also seen green ammo while I was in LE. And I don't mean Algore "green".

 

[GunTech]

They have had a couple of ND with their 45 Glocks, the result of officer stupidity. Always good to blame the gun.

 

[isp2605]

IN SP new Glocks weren't "blowing up". They were having FTF/FTE problems with the new G22s.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

El Tejon--'green ammo' ????

 

[Henry Bowman]

El Tejon--'green ammo' ????

Old and corroded.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

thanks

 

[Bailey Guns]

kd7nqb:

Items 1-7 on your list are pretty much correct. Rather than listen to nonsense like "PPB officers like to fill suspects with bullets", I thought I'd provide you a link to the facts:

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/ppb.html

I know having the truth won't stop the cop-bashing that regularly goes on here, but at least you'll have the facts.

 

[strambo]

favored tazing people to death.

Well, I googled it and found 2 cases where PPD tasered a suspect and that suspect...at some point...died. One weighed 450lbs and died 3 days later. Medical examiner ruled that taser was not cause of death. The other case (guy high on drugs) he was conscious at the scene and when examined by paramedics, he died later too and the Med. examiner ruled the taser wasn't the cause.

Kinda hard to "taze" someone to death when they don't die at the scene...I mean how would you know you accomplished the mission? Especially when the ME rules it as not the cause? I believe it can be a contributing factor, but just one (very hard to prove/disprove) of many factors in cases like these. Other factors include obesity, genetics, medical history, DRUGS, extreme exertion due to fighting with police...

It's a great subject, vague enough to make wild accusations that cannot be 100% disproven. Kinda like saying they went from a high cap .45 to a slightly higher-cap 9mm just to shoot more rounds at people.


On the gun issue, I'd heard all the other info except that qual scores went up. That makes sense and is reason enough to stay with the 9mm, which I beleive was always an option for officers.

 

[Flashman]

Long before this incident, Portland Police Bureau had one or more slam-fire (or where the gun was hit with a baton that activated the firing pin) training incidents with, I believe, Glock 19's, 1st Generation, that Glock denied any issues but resulted in one of Glock's silent recalls.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

That doesn't really sound like a "feud".

 

[kd7nqb]

This was not at all meant to be a cop bash, I honestly wanted to know. The gunzone link was really good.

How did the NYPD Phase three issue ever end?

 

[Hoppy590]

Well, I googled it and found 2 cases where PPD tasered a suspect and that suspect...at some point...died. One weighed 450lbs and died 3 days later. Medical examiner ruled that taser was not cause of death. The other case (guy high on drugs) he was conscious at the scene and when examined by paramedics, he died later too and the Med. examiner ruled the taser wasn't the cause.

yes lets take the guy whos on the citys payrolls word for it. because coverups NEVER happen in deaths of suspects in police custody.

Kinda hard to "taze" someone to death when they don't die at the scene...I mean how would you know you accomplished the mission?

the hearts a sensitive muscle when it comes to electricity. and irregularity could result from improper use of the taser. and it may not be the goal. but stillhappens

 

[Bailey Guns]

kd7nqb:

I know you weren't doing the cop bashing. I was referring to some others. And I don't know the answer to your phase 3 question. But TheGunZone is a good place to keep up with the latest on that sort of thing.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I can see where they were having qualifying trouble with the .45-chambered Glocks, but not because of ammo or number of rounds. If you ever held one you'd know what I'm talking about. It's like holding the big end of a baseball bat.

I have big hands (I wear a size 15 ring) but the large-frame Glocks still feel wayyyy too big for me. I have a hard time getting a stable grip on them. Couple that with the greater recoil of the .45 and I can see a number of their officers having trouble getting comfortable with it.

Brad

 

[kd7nqb]

I would like to commend the THR community for going so far 18posts without igniting the .45 v 9mm debate. However while I am on the topic does anybody else find it odd that they seem to forget that there are calibers OTHER than .45 and 9mm. Like .40S&W and .357sig.

 

[Grandpa Shooter]

I own several glocks. One in 9, the other a 40. I was shooting with a friend at a range one day and he asked me to check out his 9. It slam fired and blew up in my hands. Other than concussion damage to my hands, no other injuries. I've also had a KelTec in 40 blow up in my hands at an out door range. Not a lot of fun. Would I condemn every Glock or Keltec? No way! They are both useful tools.

I liken this to the debate over "knock down" power, expansion, wound channel, etc. There is no final answer on why a firearm, properly maintained and used carefully should fire out of battery any more than why one person with multiple bullet and fragment wounds survives and carries on the fight, while another with "non-life-threating injuries" dies on the spot. It just happens!

 

[CWL]

8. During this process all of the current .45acp's had been replaced with 9mm's and range qualification scores went up among officers

Couldn't this be simply because the G21 is too big for small-medium hands?

 

[GunTech]

Long before this incident, Portland Police Bureau had one or more slam-fire (or where the gun was hit with a baton that activated the firing pin) training incidents with, I believe, Glock 19's, 1st Generation, that Glock denied any issues but resulted in one of Glock's silent recalls.

I recall this incident as my wife was an agent in PDX at the time. The cop in question was showing off with his PR-24 and struck his holstered Glock with the baton while spinning it and the pistol discharged.

 

[f4t9r]

I thought this was going to be like the Hatfields and McCoys.
Not much of a feud

 

[chipperi]

Long before this incident, Portland Police Bureau had one or more slam-fire (or where the gun was hit with a baton that activated the firing pin) training incidents with, I believe, Glock 19's, 1st Generation, that Glock denied any issues but resulted in one of Glock's silent recalls.

Just curious do you have anymore info on this? Glock even the older ones seem to have one of the best firing pin blocks I've seen. They just don't fire (at least that I've heard of) unless you pull the trigger.

 

[spaceCADETzoom]

Strambo,
I believe the Shweboner was referring to the current Frank Waterhouse case. He's suing the Portland PD for tazing and beanbaging him because he was filming a warrant-less search of a neighbor. THey told him to stop filming and drop the camera. He continued filming...