Does the US Army teach basic gun safety?

Status
Not open for further replies.

FourTeeFive

Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Messages
1,078
Location
PNW WA
http://www.bellinghamherald.com/256/story/383593.html

"I don't know," Ayers replied when the judge, Col. John Head, asked why he fired. "I guess I felt so comfortable pulling the trigger when it wasn't loaded before, that I just did it."

NEWS UPDATE Apr, 17, 2008
MILITARY

Fort Lewis soldier sentenced for shooting sergeant

Guilty plea leaves unanswered questions

UPDATED AT 8:08 A.M.

TACOMA -- It wasn't the first time he'd pointed his pistol at a fellow soldier, Cpl. Timothy Ayers told the judge at his court martial Wednesday. But this time, he said, he pulled the trigger, and this time, the gun was loaded.

The Fort Lewis soldier was sentenced to 28 months in prison after he pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter in the shooting death of his platoon sergeant at their forward operating base in Baghdad.

Army prosecutors originally charged Ayers, 21, with murder in the killing of Sgt. 1st Class David Cooper, Jr., last Sept. 5 at FOB Falcon.

But they accepted the soldier's guilty plea to the reduced charge in exchange for his agreement to serve whichever was less: six years in prison, or a term that a judge would hand down after a sentencing hearing.

The maximum penalty for the crime under military law is 10 years in prison.

Wednesday's hearing at Fort Lewis stretched from 10 a.m. to 6:30 p.m. Ayers could offer little explanation when the judge asked why he pointed his loaded pistol at Cooper – a man he said he looked up to as a mentor and second father – and fired. They were just inches from each other in their tent.

"I don't know," Ayers replied when the judge, Col. John Head, asked why he fired. "I guess I felt so comfortable pulling the trigger when it wasn't loaded before, that I just did it."

But later he made a tearful apology to Cooper's family and friends.

"They surely do not deserve this heartbreak and loss ... that I have brought upon them," he said. "... I can only hope that those who loved Sgt. 1st Class Cooper will find a small amount of forgiveness, forgiveness that I cannot have for myself."

Cooper, 36, was a 16-year Army veteran. In Iraq with the 2nd Battalion, 23rd Infantry Regiment, he was responsible for the performance and well-being of a dozen or so men in his Stryker Mobile Gun System platoon.

In deciding the sentence, Head may have taken into consideration Ayers' claim that Cooper also carried his pistol loaded on the base, in violation of regulations, and Ayers' belief that he was acting under Cooper's guidance that it was acceptable conduct.

Army prosecutors did not dispute the claim.

Fellow soldiers and family members said Cooper was a beloved friend and leader. Before deploying to Iraq in April 2007 with the 4th Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division, he’d been assigned to train soldiers on the new Stryker gun truck – the eight-wheeled armored vehicle with a 105mm cannon.

"He was in the top 10 percent of the armor community, easily," said his friend, Staff Sgt. David Heard, testifying by telephone from Baqouba, Iraq. "He loved being in the hatch. He loved tanking.

"He made you laugh, could turn anything around and made you see the bright side,” Heard said. "It's not here now. It's been a long year for us, we really could use his laughter now."

Cooper's parents, David and Wanda Cooper of Jersey Shore, Pa., said their son wanted to be a soldier from the time he was a little boy. He enlisted in high school, and spent 10 years stationed at Fort Lewis.

He was buried at Arlington National Cemetery.

Also testifying Wednesday were his wife, Michelle, of Puyallup, his brother, Sgt. 1st Class Michael Cooper, stationed in Germany, his ex-wife Tracy Cornwell and their 16-year-old twin sons, Drake and Gage.

The boys said although their parents divorced when they were very young, their father maintained a strong relationship with them by phone and e-mail and in occasional visits back home to Pennsylvania.

They would talk like best friends all the time, about sports, movies, video games, girls, the future.

Like other family members who testified Wednesday, they said they couldn't believe the news that their father had been killed – that it had to be some kind of mistake.

"It never crossed my mind that he wasn’t coming back," Gage Cooper said. "He was one of my best friends, and now I don’t have that any more."

The family appeared to be bitterly disappointed and dismayed at the announcement of the sentence, and left the courtroom afterward to speak with Army prosecutors.

Cooper’s family said Ayers' negligence had cost them dearly.

"I won't be able to live knowing there's no justice," Wanda Cooper said. "It was no excuse."

Ayers told the judge the men in his platoon had spent the afternoon cleaning their weapons and were getting ready to go to dinner when Cooper walked up to him in their tent.

He said he pointed his 9mm pistol at Cooper's chest, from about an inch away. Cooper made no reaction. Ayers moved the weapon toward Cooper's shoulder, and while looking at other soldiers across the tent, pulled the trigger.

Ayers' wife, Jennifer, of Federal Way, said her husband loved Cooper "and looked up to him like he was a father."

His mother, Taralee Ayers, agreed.

"He lost a part of his soul," she said, fighting back tears as she looked at her son across the courtroom. "Nobody could punish him worse than he's going to punish himself. He will never forgive himself."

Michael Gilbert is a reporter for The News Tribune in Tacoma
 
This sounds like cold blooded murder to me.No one with military training could be that stupid,IMO.

Certainly sounds like it. Maybe he's thinking a jury would buy his "I didn't know it was loaded" argument?
 
They sure did in 1994, I remember an almost beating of a private in basic on the range when he swept a Drill Sergeant.

That said there are a lot of smart folks in the Army, but at the same time there are folks in there who are not exactly America's best and brightest. I observed a lot of stupid things with firearms in the Army, I could buy this as an "accident".
 
Certainly sounds like it. Maybe he's thinking a jury would buy his "I didn't know it was loaded" argument?

Yes.And he only got 28 months for this crime.
Thats very close to getting away with Murder 1,again IMO.
 
While I have no first-hand experience, most of what I've seen has made me concerned, to say the least.

My roommate's cousin, who is currently in the U.S. Navy, was trying to sell me his M&P .40 before he was deployed. He was very knowledgable about guns, but when he showed me the pistol and demonstrated its various features, he did so while covering the muzzle with his hand and pulling the trigger! The magazine was removed, I guess he was trying to show how it wouldn't fire without the magazine inserted, but I don't think I'd risk losing a couple fingers in order to show off Smith and Wesson's safety design prowess :what: That, coupled with a range story about how he and other persons would fire one round out of the pistol and then try to shoot the ejected case while it was still in the air made me less than eager to be anywhere around him.

While at Camp Leujeune, NC to see my best friend deployed, I noticed that several Marines paid no attention to where their weapon was pointed. I even noticed one Marine lying on the ground, his head propped against a backpack and 2" away from the muzzle of an M-249 SAW on a bipod!
 
Well just let me say, I just went through basic training in aug 06. The army has drop the standard way down. They give people an m16 that I wouldnt trust with a slingshot. I can remember on more than one occaision, of accidental discharge.
 
I've never been able to serve in the armed forces, but I'd assume they have LOTS of rules. I'd also think The Four Rules are a part of them.

Sounds like murder to me too.
 
I get the impression that their safety training is lacking. A good friend of mine who had spent a year in Iraq went shooting with me one afternoon. We each had a rifle and were on the line ready to fire. My buddy shoots a three or four round group. Without saying anything he puts his rifle (which has a round in the chamber) on safe, sets it on the bench and starts walking down range while I am still on the line with a round in the chamber, safety off, and trigger on the finger. Needless to say I scolded him for this very serious infraction and was left with severe doubt as to how well the military trains it’s soldiers with respect to firearms safety.

Maybe one has to adopt less stringent firearms handling practices in a combat zone but we weren’t in one of those and he should have known better.
 
There was rigid firearm safety instruction in the 1980s. In fact, going on my first civilian indoor range (unmonitored though) was a bit shocking by comparison and today I seek out controlled ranges.

I do remember reading about an incident in one of the safety bulletins where someone in the que to go up to the firing line shot the soldier in front of him during a night fire. It was late into the night after a hard days training and he apparently started following the commands for the tower while in some sort of daze up to commence firing.
 
Sadly, in the military, it seems gun safety only becomes a big deal when something goes wrong. It's part of an annual General Military Training (that the average Joe clicks through on a computer in 10 seconds) and it's part of basic, but if the leaders in a command do not emphasize it, it will not be adhered to. If this young man thought he could point a firearm at a comrade, there was inadequate training.

This does not excuse his actions, but points to the weaknesses that may have lead him to believe that his actions were acceptable.

Edit: The firearm safety habits of servicemembers, from my experience, are either fantastic, or terrible, with little middle ground. I would not go to the range with a handful of people I have stood armed watches with.
 
Last edited:
I agree with Floppy, everyone from my unit, being origionally infantry are all top notch when it comes to weapon safety. However some of the people we were deployed with...I wouldn't trust them with a plastic spork, but they were cage kickers, just never had that warrior mentality.
 
"They surely do not deserve this heartbreak and loss ... that I have brought upon them," he said. "... I can only hope that those who loved Sgt. 1st Class Cooper will find a small amount of forgiveness, forgiveness that I cannot have for myself."

Sounds like Ayers just had a life lesson.

Gun safety is taught, but what matters is applying it.
 
There's plenty of training. But remember you are dealing with 18 year olds, who have the capacity to forget everything they are taught five minutes later.
 
This is indeed a very sad incident that should not have happened. However teaching is one thing, always following what you are taught is another. I am not trying to justify what happened just saying that s-it happens and it is not always an intentional act, stupidity, yes.
I certainly have had to deal with my share of accidental discharges by police officers who were trained and still found a way to be stupid. My prayers go out to the family of Sgt. Cooper and Cpl Ayers.
 
This isn't a safety issue. There is no need for an outlined rule that says not to point a loaded weapon at another person and pull the trigger. I'm not defaulting to "common sense," it is beyond common sense.

THe convicted guy did all of that, knowingly. He's not "unsafe," he's darn-near homicidal. I'm not sure where anyone gets off in asking if "the army teaches gun safety." It explicitly states that the perpetrator KNEW keeping a loaded weapon on the FOB was illegal. If you knew how restrictive the army is about EVERYTHING (from motorcycles to cars to guns to exercise to walking to drinking water--it's the model of nanny-state)...you'd realize how absolutely maddeningly hilarious that question was.
 
I've never been able to serve in the armed forces, but I'd assume they have LOTS of rules. I'd also think The Four Rules are a part of them.

The Four Rules are not taught specifically. Yes common sense gun safety was taught, but a lot of things that we take for granted are left out. And I never heard any instuctors speak of the actual 4 rules as we know them. Also, we do a lot of dry firing, so fingers off the triggers at all times is not emphasised, nor is always checking a weapon when it leaves your sight. At least that was in Basic. Now I'm in Honduars doing MP stuff and we do clear our weapons when we're issued them and when we turn them in. Of course we're not allowed to carry with a chambered round either.

There is a lot of rule shamming in the military in general. There are so many FMs and regs about everything, it's become commonplace to ignore some of them for the sake of efficiency though sometimes laziness as well.
 
A Horrible way to go. "Friendly Fire; isn't" just doesn't cover it.


They taught us how to shoot, the four basic rules, and a whole lot about the rate of fire for each weapon we handled it's range against point and area targets, indirect fire....hell I could type all day.


Semper Fi.
 
He said he pointed his 9mm pistol at Cooper's chest, from about an inch away.

***????????????????

Are you kidding me?

If that isn't cold blooded murder I don't know what is...And that 28 month sentence is more of a joke than this kid.:rolleyes:

I'm not sure what his punishment should be, but there should be a vasectomy in there somewhere.
 
When I was in The Corps ('79-83) there was not much emphasis at all on gun safety. I would frequently admonish guys for pointing rifles at each other; the standard response was "but its not loaded". We were taught to clear our weapons, but not how to responsibly handle them after that.

Then someone got shot, but things didn't change. :banghead:
 
My first inclination was to agree that this guy had used the "I didn't know it was loaded" excuse to get away with murder, and that is still a possibility.

However, when I think back to my original MOS and those who were stationed in a support company with me I remember all of the idiots I wouldn't have trusted with water pistol; loaded or unloaded.

In the Rangers we knew a bit more about weapons and treated them with respect.

I'm sure that the officers who were trying this case took the soldiers job and his familiarity with weapons into account, so I won't sit here and try to armchair quarterback this one.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top