Does you Local Gun shop have a clearing station?

[Rockfish61]

Hi All,

This recently happened in our State. http://www.kob.com/article/stories/s2842143.shtml
"Worker at NM gun shop accidentally shoots customer
Posted at: 11/21/2012 6:40 AM
By: The Associated Press

SILVER CITY, N.M. (AP) - Authorities say an employee at a New Mexico gun shop was unloading a handgun when he accidentally shot a customer in the back, wounding him."


So I went to three of our local Gun shops and noticed the following:

1. All of them allowed patrons to "legal carry" into the store with the exception that open carry had to be holstered.

2. Only one of them has a clearing station (in the repair shop in back). None of them had a clearing station in the public areas.

3. While I was in one of the stores I witnessed one of the salesman clear his pistol behind the counter and let a patron see it.

With the recent ND I think there is room for improvement here. I checked and you can buy a clearing station for less than $500.00 .

So here is my question: How do we improve safety without creating more regulation in this case?

 

[Plan2Live]

I've never seen one in any of the local stores I frequent. For that matter, the local guns shows check chambers right out in the open, probably not the best option since they claim to find live ammo in "unloaded" firearms.

 

[Ehtereon11B]

Have never seen a clearing station, on sale or for use in any civilian establishment. They are outside every single large military structure I have ever seen though.

Just make it a rule not to whip out your carry piece to show someone. If you want to brag what you have, bring pictures on your phone. I have only taken out my carry piece once to show a gun store clerk. And I was green gill new to carry, only been doing it for a few months.

 

[AirForceShooter]

Never saw one in any gun store.
It's a great idea though.

AFS

 

[bigfatdave]

It isn't a bad idea, and it doesn't take massive amounts of money for a handgun "safe direction"
You get a couple 5-gallon buckets or whatever container is handy, and you fill them with sand. Stack/arrange as needed.

 

[j1]

Interesting post, thank you.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Folks, let's not post 'bare' links here - at least paste or paraphrase enough of the story to give an idea of its content.

http://www.kob.com/article/stories/s2842143.shtml

Worker at NM gun shop accidentally shoots customer
Posted at: 11/21/2012 6:40 AM
By: The Associated Press

SILVER CITY, N.M. (AP) - Authorities say an employee at a New Mexico gun shop was unloading a handgun when he accidentally shot a customer in the back, wounding him.

The Las Cruces Sun-News reports the 65-year-old customer was airlifted from Silver City to an El Paso, Texas hospital, where he is listed in stable condition.
///snip

 

[loose noose]

December 30th I gave my year end firearms safety course. I instructed each of my students to bring their weapon unloaded to the class room, as allways, for my safety as well as the safety of others, until they had completed my course. I had this older gentleman hand me his weapon (Walther PPK) with the hammer cocked and the safety off. Upon inspecting the weapon, using a bullet trap in the classroom, I found a bullet in the chamber. Upon inquiring how come he had a live round in the chamber and the firearm ready to fire, he stated,"If I had to use it, it would be ready to go". Needless to say this gent, was extremely hard to train, and it was set in his mind that safety was for others not him. Definitely an accident waiting to happen. Most gun shops I'm familiar, with in an around my area do have bullet traps set up to inspect firearms as they come in. I would presume this is what Rockfish61 is referring to.

 

[Rockfish61]

Folks, let's not post 'bare' links here - at least paste or paraphrase enough of the story to give an idea of its content.

///snip

Sorry about that Mr. Fuller. This was one of my midnight owl frolics through the new stories. I thought it warranted some interest here.

 

[Rockfish61]

I would presume this is what Rockfish61 was referring to in stating a clearing station.

Yes, that is exactly what I was referring too. As a RSO I am always looking for ways to improve safety. There is a definite gap with regard to handling and clearing a firearm in some local shops. You would think that the owner would give more serious thought to the potential for ND. I was looking for suggestions on how we can improve the situation without creating more regulations. I am sorry to say that when I brought it to the attention of one owner (only by asking about a clearing area) they looked at me like I was insulting them. It caught me by surprise to say the least. This was the same shop where I saw the fella behind the counter remove his pistol from his holster and clear it (in what he felt was a safe direction) pointing at the back wall towards the floor. I think the business office was behind that wall.

 

[Skribs]

I haven't seen one at any of the stores I go to. People usually just clear in the open. However, there are signs posted that guns must be in holster or case and can only be handled under supervision of the store staff.

 

[wickedsprint]

Civilians aren't generally trained to use a clearing barrel and might not even know what it is.

I remember my first day on an Army base wondering what all these leaned over 55 gallon drums were doing in front of each building.

 

[Ramone]

One Gun Shop I have frequented had a 18"x 18" bullseye marked "SAFE DIRECTION" in a few places on the wall around the shop. I thought it was such a good idea I'm surprised I haven't seen it more places.

 

[beatledog7]

I thought about filling a 5-gallon bucket with sand for use in my home, and I still might.

I've never seen a clearing barrel in a gun store or at a range, but I have seen people at both appear to suddenly realize they're carrying a loaded gun and fumble all over the place to unload. A clearing barrel would not provide an increased measure of safety with people who don't know where to point their muzzle.

 

[WardenWolf]

I've seen bullet traps. Usually angled metal containers filled with water or sand. The shooting range I was a member of had a number of them. I've never seen one at a gun shop, though.

 

[RustHunter87]

Yes, I think they call it the parking lot tho.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I'm going to be a bit more blunt than usual here - only the military is idiotic enough to require people who are supposed to be professionals at handling weapons (yet are most often abominably trained at that) to handle and manipulate their sidearms before entering a given area.

In the 'normal' world, I'd rather see a safely holstered pistol left exactly where it is by the person carrying it, and preferably concealed as well. I can't think of anything likely to reduce the possibility of an ND more than that. Most of the stores I frequent have signs to that effect - if a firearm is brought in for any purpose other than during concealed carry, it is to be unloaded and cased.

 

[Lost Sheep]

In Anchorage, there is at least one store, Northern Security Supply. It caters to police and security folks, but lots of civilian customers, too. There is a clearing barrel right inside the front door.

Lost Sheep

 

[GEM]

My favorite store:

1. Don't take out a concealed weapon!!

2. There is a guy at a table at the door who stops anyone carrying a gun and checks it out.

 

[1911 guy]

I pretty much agree with Fred Fuller. A holstered gun is a safe gun. If you don't have a good reason, leave it be.

 

[Ehtereon11B]

The military by and large knows how retarded the clearing barrels are. It is even more embarrassing seeing them on a base in a designated combat zone *cough Bagram.* Most of us just go through the process of using them because we are told to knowing full well how stupid the concept is.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Some may think my statement above was unduly harsh or critical of the military. Take a look at the following, from defensive firearms trainer (and active duty Marine officer in a previous life) John Farnam (http://www.defense-training.com/):
======================================

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2012/15July12.html
Just Pretending?
15 July 12

Are we training, or just pretending?

At a Defensive Handgun/Urban Rifle Program recently, one of my students was a strapping, young Marine E5 with a half-decade of active service. His learning attitude was excellent. He was there on his own dime, and anxious to learn everything he could. As a Marine Infantry Officer (Ret), I am so glad to see such fine, young men continue to be attracted to the Corps!

As I unapologetically explained to the Class that we boldly run a hot range, he nodded his head in agreement, but that is where our communication got muddled!

He conceded that he did not carry concealed as a regular practice. Nearly all of the rest of my students do. He was using a borrowed pistol (G21). He bragged about the way his recon unit used 1911 pistols to great effect, but curiously he was unable to produce a copy of his own.

In any event, when he arrived at the range the morning of the second day, he put on his holster and pistol. At a distance, I watched him insert a magazine into the pistol, but he failed to chamber a round, as he had been instructed to do.

I decided to let it go, as the learning-point would likely arrive shortly.

It did!

During our first drill, he drew his G21 and pressed the trigger. It was obvious to all that he fully expected it to fire. Instead, of course, it went "click!" Mystified, he paused and looked at it. He finally ran the slide and belatedly started the drill.

I grabbed his shoulder and stopped him. I pointed out to him that he had been carrying an unloaded pistol all morning, and, had our drill been a real fight, he probably would have been killed, and for a really stupid reason!

I continued:

"In what passes for 'training' you've become far too accustomed to carrying around unloaded guns, my friend. You claim to be an Operator, yet you don't even carry a gun as a regular practice, and you're obviously not traveling with one.

Well, the rest of us do, and we expect you to come to the party.

Around here, we don't holster empty guns. We don't 'pretend,' and we need you to stop pretending too!

Marine, you may be dynamite in a gunfight that is scheduled and part of a ' plan,' but what is going to happen to you when you get involved in an ' unscheduled' fight, on the way to the 'planned' one?"

To his credit, he graciously acknowledged the unhappy gap in his habit repertoire.

It has improved slightly over the past forty years, but today Soldiers and Marines, even from "elite" units, still receive no instruction in personal readiness. They run guns now and then, but don't carry loaded weapons, even blades, regularly. On those rare occasions when they do carry, all guns are routinely unloaded. This is currently true, even in areas of active fighting!

My student, at the price of a little personal embarrassment, learned this important lesson about personal readiness. The vast majority of his colleagues haven't, probably never will, nor will they even think about it... until it's too late!

The term "readiness" casually rolls of the lips of generals and politicians alike, yet it has never been practiced on a personal basis, at least during the past half-century. Instead, we unwittingly teach Soldiers and Marines how to get killed, as we see.

Anyone remember Ft Hood?

We desperately need courageous leaders, political and military (the kind we once had!), to boldly step forward and start taking "readiness" literally.

In my small corner of the Universe, I passionately, joyfully do what I can!

"Argue for your limitations, and they're yours"

Boehlen

/John

 

[Ehtereon11B]

Some may think my statement above was unduly harsh or critical of the military. Take a look at the following, from defensive firearms trainer (and active duty Marine officer in a previous life) John Farnam (http://www.defense-training.com/):

Not from me. I think the practice is rather ridiculous. But I sometimes see the point in it. I never considered my unit among "elite" until we did a firing qual with some other units. It was at that qual I saw why some soldiers are not allowed to carry loaded weapons. I saw magazines go in backwards, soldiers who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, and a general lack of knowledge of the manual of arms over their assigned weapon. From simple things such as using a visible laser compared to an IR on their designator to loading the rounds in a magazine backwards, or forgetting to put the firing pin in their weapon after the last time they put it together. Yes I have seen that happen.

Fort Hood was embarrassing when I heard about it. A good friend of mine was one of the soldiers injured in the shooting and whose unit was made combat ineffective because of the injuries from the event. Had the soldiers been armed with loaded weapons there would have been no way Maj Hassan would have done that much damage. But he was allowed to. Military bases are the biggest gun saturated "ammo free" zones I have ever seen. We carry weapons for accountability and responsibility rather than proficiency. As a result it took civilian police officers to handle a military problem.

Anyway I think we have hijacked this thread enough. Back to the regularly scheduled program.

 

[bigfatdave]

Guns in holsters should be hot
(and the military practice of "here, carry a gun to look scary, but whatever you do, DON'T LOAD IT!" is foolish. I thought it was a Navy thing when I was in, applying that stupid practice to front-line guys is an embarrasment)

But at a location where clearing might occur frequently, I don't see a downside to providing a safe direction. Not providing one or requiring guns to either come in unloaded or stay holstered just moves the handling out to the parking lot, where there are more distractions. I don't like a setup that encourages clearing handguns while sitting in a compact car and doing it concealed to prevent a sheeple/Fudd panic.

Clearing barrels are sort of silly, but they do serve a few purposes:
1 - they provide a designated place for clearing, and a reminder to the person clearing the gun to apply 100% attention to the task
2 - they provide a reminder for others to not distract the person clearing a gun
3 - they provide a worst-case backstop for complete idiots, who will now damage their hearing in the shop instead of shooting themselves in the junk out in the parking lot

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

I don't particularly care how callous some of the posters are concerning the military, after all this is the internet and anything can go.
In all of my twenty years in the U.S. Army I can count on one hand using only three fingers examples of NDs. One was a unit armorer who loaded an M1911A1 in that arms room, the pistol subsequently discharged in that arms room. Another example was a guy who was clearing a 9mm pistol in a clearing barrel. At least the pistol discharged where it was supposed to. Both of those received UCMJ (punishment).
For every negative story I hear about NDs in the military there are tens of thousands who learn how to never have an ND.

The last one was in Bosnia-Herzegovina and with that one he had a round in the chamber.
People are people wherever they are, whether they are in the military or not. It happens that while in the military there are more rules to follow. Most of them are common sense. What makes for common sense in the military may not necessarily make for the public.
The proper way to use a clearing barrel is to drop the magazine and physically clear the weapon and then dry fire into the barrel.
I prefer a clearing barrel as opposed to not having one whenever they were needed on a military base. I will never agree to a clearing barrel for the public's use whenever they walk into a gun shop. There are way too many out there who have never properly trained on how to safely handle a firearm.