Domestic Dispute Turning Physical. Intervene?

[Old Shooter]

Calling 911 (for what that was worth) is the right thing to do.

Sticking around to see if it is going to become violent, OK if I plan on being a witness.

Physical intervention, I don't think so unless it seemed to be a "murder in progress".

I'd hate to get shot or stabbed because she put too much starch in his jockey shorts.

Have to be prepared for a situation in which he sees you watching their domestic dispute and decides to take you on first.....

 

[leadcounsel]

+1 Oyeboten and others who noted that domestic disputes are not what they appear and can quickly turn violent against ANY outsider.

Walk the other way and don't interfere.

I don't know what the laws in your state say about defense of a third person; AZ states anything you could legally do to defend yourself can be lawfully used to prevent the same crimes, (murder, rape, sexual assalu, etc.) to a third person. Also we have no civil liability for a justified act.

Given the OP fact pattern, lets say the man strikes the woman repeatedly and OP draws his weapon and shoot the man in defense of the woman's life. Later the woman testifies in court that she was in no real danger and the OP had no right to shoot her husband. Now the OP is facing prison and a civil lawsuit. NO thanks.

Not "usually." Usually the guy is an abusive dirtbag and the woman has been degraded into a Stockholm Syndrome victim.

But the important thing you need to know is that the guy can always walk away. It doesn't matter what the woman does. The guy can can roll down his sleeves and walk. Anytime.

I have to disagree with Shortwave here. People grow up learning to use the 'weapons' they have. For men it's generally physical and for women it's emotional and manipulative attacks. Unfortunately the former is illegal and easily provable, and the latter is not.

Yes, in these situations the woman is just as guilty as the man yet the man will go to prison and the woman will go free to antagonize another man. Women will lie, steal, cheat, and manipulate men they are in relationships with until it drives him to the edge. Sure, some men can tolerate it and leave... but then there are instances where the woman does it when he's vulnerable, like out drinking. Then she whores around with men at the bar, pushing his buttons to get a rise out of her man...

I know this thread isn't about who's at fault. The POINT is that getting involved in other peoples' personal domestic business is not going to be rewarded with any praise or thank yous. Instead it'll likely end up with both of them attacking you and creating hostilities with them, especially if you know them or they are neighbors. God help you if you call the cops on your neighbors - you may as well move.

 

[jahwarrior]

i've intervened in domestic dispute once, and i'll never do it again.

back in January, i was walking out of the K-mart in Moosic, PA. i needed a new pair of shoes, since my dog thought my old ones looked better chewed up to look like a pile of crap. i walked around 'til i found a pair i could afford, then got some socks, paid, and left.

on my way to my van, i heard some yelling, and some pleading, and a baby crying. i got to my van, and further ahead, there was a young couple, standing by their car. the noise was coming from them. i watched for a moment as the man, or boy, pulled on the arm of the young woman, hard. he looked like he was trying to pull her to the ground, or slam her into the car door. in her free arm, she held a baby, no older than a year old. "baby, please! stop, baby!"

"what did i say? get over here!" he pulled her again, then grabbed a handful of her hair.

"baby, please! you hurtin' me!" she held on to the baby, who was now screaming. i dropped my things, walked around my van so i was in full view, and yelled, "yo! yo!"

the boy stopped, and looked at me, almost confused. "what the hell are you doing," i yelled.

"yo, mind your business, man!"

"what are you doing?" i repeated. i got my phone ready to dial 911.

"yo, you deaf, m*********? i said mind your business, dude."

"you wanna beat on your girl? go ahead. but she's holding a baby; now, it's my business." i started to dial 911.

"the hell you doin'? why don't you leave, n****?"

"i'm calling 911."

"you better put that phone down, man," he said, as he started to walk towards me.

"get back. i'm not playin'; it's ringing, so get back."

"whatchoo gonna do? you wanna get blasted?" he put his hand behind his back, which is typical of thugs who have nothing, really.

"are you retarded? get the hell back," i said, this time opening my coat. i was carrying a 1911, which he saw. he froze.

"..."

over the sound of the woman crying, and the baby crying, i could hear the 911 operator. "911, what is your emergency? 911, what is your emergency?"

i brought the phone to my ear, while watching him. "yes, i'd like to report an assault i witnessed..."

"da hell with this," the boy hissed. he ran to his car, and yelled for her to follow. she did so, jumping into the driver's side. i watched her fumble for her keys, then peel away.

unbelievable.

the Moosic police were there in under 5 minutes. "you the guy that called?"

"yup. you just missed them."

i told the officer what happened, including pulling my coat away to expose my gun. "did you have to draw down on him?"

"no, thankfully."

"that's good. at least he wasn't stupid."

in retrospect, i should have just thrown my shoes and socks into the van, and left. yeah, i stopped that girl from getting beaten, but all i did was delay it. they're gonna get home, and he's gonna blame her for what happened, and beat her some more. he humiliates her in public, put her baby in harm's way, and she helps him to run away. this is why i try not to leave my house. how much do you wanna bet she'd lie, and say i pulled a gun on her poor, defenseless boyfriend?

it made me think of another experience i had, about 11 years ago. i was out with my girlfriend, and we stopped at a Turkey Hill to pick up some junk food, and cigarettes. there was this woman outside, with no shoes on, crying on a pay phone. she had a black eye. scratch that, she had a destroyed eye. my girlfriend approached her, to see if she needed help. she eventually told us what happened, and we offered to take her to a shelter in town. it took us 15 minutes of persuading her, with the promise we wouldn't call the police. she relented, and we took her to the shelter. i told her if she wanted to repay us, she wouldn't go back to the man that did it.

i saw her in the paper 3 months later, beaten to death by her boyfriend.

i'm now resolved to not get involved in situations like again, unless i think someone's about to get killed. otherwise, it's just not worth getting involved. i'm sorry if that makes me seem callous.

actually, i'm not sorry. i could care less how it makes me seem. i don't walk around armed to be a hero, i do it to defend myself and my loved ones. that hero stuff is stupid.

 

[gdesloge]

How do you know that it was a "domestic" dispute?

Could it have been a garden variety assault?

Is there a legal distinction?

I do not know, but I am curious.

gd

 

[45Fan]

Jahwarrior, you are not callus, I understand fully how you feel. Several years ago I got a call in the middle of the night, a friend of mine had been beaten by her boyfriend, and needed a ride. When I got to the trailer, the offender had returned to continue the beating, but stopped short when he saw me pulling up. Just the sight of another person made him pull stakes and run, and I helped the friend to gather her things and her baby and leave. Later that night, a local LEO stopped by MY house, because the creep had called the police to report an assault. (Evidently in his hasty retreat, he broke his nose running into a clothes line pole) I was fortunate in the fact that the local LEOs know me well, in a good way, and this guy had left blood all over the offending pole. Unfortunaly the way some people are brought up, its OK to treat each other this way, and putting yourself in the middle usually ends up badly. Calling the local athorities and standing by to be a good witness seems to be the best way to handle these things. Intervention should only be thought of as an option if there is a SERIOUS crime being commited. I dont like the way the laws work in this area, but we have to either live by it, or lobby to get them changed.

 

[ReloaderEd]

domestic dispute

At least you just didn't walk away when the man put his hands on her. However, the only time a firearm should or can legally be deployed it if the other person or persons have a knife or firearm and are threatening with it.
In most states if you point a gun at someone during a dispute and they do not have a weapon, your in deep do do. Also, be aware of this couple, he might come after you with a weapon in the dark or blind side you which happens quite often.
A friend of mine owned an apartment house and had a couple evicted after much time, money and loss of rent. A police officer evicted them.
Several days later he was doing maintenance at the apartment complex. The man a hugh man beat the living crap out of him. If you get my point.
Watch around you and be safe.

 

[Deanimator]

I had a similar ongoing situation with my then upstairs neighbors around 15 years ago. I just kept calling the police until he finally climbed out on a 6th floor ledge and fought the cops when they pulled him back in. I never saw either one again.

I agree both with not becoming physically involved if at all possible, and women intentionally provoking men. I had somebody do that to me in the early '80s. Instead of doing what she expected, which would get ME in trouble, my response to physical violence was to not see her again for 13 years.

 

[jahwarrior]

Gdesloge, i assumed it was domestic because the girl called the scumbag "baby", and they ran off together.

ReloaderEd, i never drew on the guy, i only pulled open my coat, when he made a motion as if he was reaching for a weapon. if someone acts like he's going for a weapon, i'd be stupid NOT to.

 

[9mmepiphany]

How do you know that it was a "domestic" dispute?

Could it have been a garden variety assault?

Is there a legal distinction?

That is hard to answer without knowing where you are located.

Locally, one is a felony and the other isn't

 

[oldbanjo]

I was wondering when someone would tell you not to pull a gun. Reloadered gave a good answer, I personally would not pull a gun unless I intended to fire it. You can get in a lot of trouble for pointing a gun at someone. I know how women are but your GF could have got you both killed.

 

[Shadow 7D]

YES there is a legal distinction, one, if you are so charged leads to you loosing your 2nd amendment rights, the other is just a pain to fight. Domestics are nasty, because everybody knows everybody and the distinctions vary by state, but usually a domestic is assault against relations up to second degree, and anyone you are or have been intimate with...

So if your old girl friend from HS decides to rob you, or is stalking you, and you get in a fight, you are open to the domestics charge.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

"About physically intervening?....Well, I have to ask, would you intervene if you didn't have a gun with you, or would you just wait for the police to show up? "

I did exactly what I'd have done without a weapon. I let him know that there were witnesses present, I called 911, I gave the police his description, and then I stood by at a safe distance until either the police got there or until he left.

I do feel lucky that my girlfriend didn't provoke him into coming after us.

My line of thought was that I would just observe unless he seriously started to beat her. Shaking her shoulders and screaming in her face is cowardly and not appropriate treatment for a woman, but it's not a serious a**whoopin. Had he punched her until she went down, then proceeded to kick her, I probably would've tackled the SOB if he didn't stop... armed or not.

My question was would any of you have been willing to intervene before that, like after one or two punches/slaps to the head, but before it got potentially lethal. The consensus in here seems to be "no, let it be" and with good reason from what I've seen so far.

 

[leadcounsel]

Yep- we've created a society where it pays to mind your own business.

Another point; by intervening you've taken the bullseye off a stranger (who may not be very innocent him/herself) and placed it squarely on you! What if the guy is a gangbanger, armed, a drug dealer, etc. Do you want the immediate or prolonged problems that you've just opened yourself up to? Vandalism, threats, thefts, property crimes, dead pets, assaults, battery.... no thanks.

 

[oldbanjo]

What you did was all you could safely do. When a policeman gets involved in a case like this he may wind up with two people fighting him. The girl could just as easily attack you for hitting her boyfriend. Then the two of them could clam that you attacked them. You can't win.

 

[mustang_steve]

Unless you have someone recording it (as it is in a public area), I would just call the police. Domestics are not something to take part in.

There was one woman that lived near me a while back that used to cry bloody murder if her boyfriend locked her out of the apartment....I talked to him about that once, it turns out while he refuses to raise a hand on anyone, he will not let anyone raise a hand on him...so the second she hits him, he locks her outside to cool down. Don't open the door either, trust me, it's not worth it.

That said....domestic disputes have a very warped and horrifying way of unfolding. A wise man is the man who avoids such spiderwebs.

 

[MisterMike]

You handled it very well. I think I would have tried to stay on the phone with the dispatcher if they'd allow it. Someone above noted the great likelihood that the woman would back her assailant if you chose to intervene, and staying on the phone provides an audible record of what's happening.

If someone was about to be seriously injured or killed, I'd intervene, but you need to realize in a situation like this that the victim may join her assailant in going after you if you try to keep her from being harmed. It happens to police officers all the time . . . your greatest concern is the assailant, but the victim may be a close second.

 

[heeler]

Having read several posts of which most offered different view points on this issue I can readily agree these things many times do not always appear so clear cut.
My very own personal story.
Back in the heady days of my young 20's in the early 1970's I started dating a good looking and well developed young woman who had some rough edges let us say.
A probable reason she had these rough edges was most likely because she was one of six kids with the other five being brothers and her mother had died when she was three years old.
She was next to the youngest of the litter.
Most of her life she was poor and they lived in a small podunk town in east Texas before her father finally moved to Houston to find work.
The brothers,each and everyone of them, were a pack of bloody noses looking for trouble constantly and usually finding it.
Anyway she moved into this apartment to start her own life when I met her.
After about three months of dating her and dealing with her constant insecurities and jealous rages over anything from riding my motorcycle or even being polite to a waitress at a dinner was just too much and I decided to end the relationship.
So I went to her apartment which just happened to be right by the community pool and being summer there were a lot of young adults hanging out at the pool.
Her apartment had a large picture window with the blinds up so anyone could see in and of course you could see out.
Well anyway I dropped the news on her and I thought,quite surprisily, she was taking the news rather calmly.
So as I turned to leave I hear her blurt out..."You sorry ba***rd"!!
She had several of those heavy porceline decorative plates of various song birds lining her wall and grabbed one and struck me in the back of my head so damn hard that not only did I see lightning but I also went to my knees.
She nearly knocked me out!!
I got up and as she came toward me I nailed her straight on her chin dropping her to the floor.
Hit me and I am going to hit you back.
Seconds later the door opens and three guys are running to me and put me in a hold and calling me all sorts of names as all they saw was me hitting her.
She recovers and then lights into them for coming in to her apartment without her permission and telling them to take their hands off of me etc.
These guys were totally bewildered with her and it clearly showed in their expressions and parting words to her.
Then she tries to make up with me.
No way!!
I turned and walked out of there with her once again cursing me like a drunken sailor and a large number of eyes upon me of young men and women all gathered outside of the pool area just glaring at me as I left.
I dont think one person in that bunch saw what she had done to me.
But it was pretty obvious by the reactions of the three guys that they saw what I did.
As it was noted...Things are not always as they appear.
So unless someone is using a weapon on another all I am doing is calling the police.

 

[9mmepiphany]

As it was noted...Things are not always as they appear.
So unless someone is using a weapon on another all I am doing is calling the police.

This does bring up the point of being very careful about how you perceive what you are seeing.

In the OP, the female might have been medically or emotionally unstable and the male might have been trying to rescue the baby/child. Think about how far you might go to "save" a child from a unstable/drugged up mother...and how it would appear to an on-looker

 

[boostedxt]

You did well.

I think people misunderstand the right to carry sometimes. It doesnt make you a cop, it gives you the right to defend yourself and thats it. Yes you can defend a 3rd party as well. I would have been a witness if need be. I could have called the cops, waited and watched and thats about it. Unless this person came at me or my wife in an apparent physical threat like he was doing to the other lady. I would have just stayed out and watched.

joe

 

[david58]

NEVER intervene unless you are ABSOLUTELY sure you know the WHOLE story. You could end up on the "3 hots and a cot" end of the court's judgment - actually, probably pretty likely.

 

[LiquidTension]

Echoing other posts, you really have no idea what's going on in a domestic. I deal with the aftermath of them on a regular basis. Yesterday I talked to a guy that was arrested for CDV (criminal domestic violence). His girl regularly beats the bejeezus out of him, but he always picks up the charge. Once you're privy to the fact that he - not she - is under a no contact order, this makes sense. If you saw her beating him down you'd think she was in the wrong. Morally she is, but legally it's his duty to stay away from her - not the other way around.

I'm not intervening in a domestic unless the situation has escalated to imminent great bodily harm or death. Call the police, be a good witness, maybe record it if you have a camera handy. I think OP did well.

 

[Onward Allusion]

NEVER get involved in domestic disputes when you are a civilian unless someones life is in danger of expiring. The right thing to do is to monitor from a distance and not get involved except for calling 911.

Also, I know it may seem like an innocuous thing to do by asking if the woman is "ok", but if the man is in a F*'d up state of mind it just may set him off. Also, like others have mentioned, it is rare when the woman/victim will press charges.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Also, I know it may seem like an innocuous thing to do by asking if the woman is "ok", but if the man is in a F*'d up state of mind it just may set him off.

Something else to plan for...What if she had responded, "I need help to get away?"
What if he says, "She's stealing my child" or "She's going to kill the baby" ?
What do you do then?

I've been in both these situations, but at least there are other avenues open to you, when you are a LEO

 

[SSN Vet]

I can relate to the sentiment voiced that "this is why I stay at home".

Unfortunately, this kind of 'social transaction' appears to be more and more common.

Just the other day, I'm at Wally World picking up a short list of things with my daughters in tow. This overweight and shoddily dressed woman is screaming and yelling at an unkempt, likewise dressed man. As he's walking down the aisle she's walking just behind him screaming and yelling at him. Then she goes on to jack slap him upside the back of his head... once.. scream and yell... twice... scream and yell...

He was a big enough boy to take care of himself. I shuffled my kids out of the aisle quickly as she continued to whack him, feeling that my kids were the greatest victims, having to witness the vulgarity of the scene.

If there's not blood flying and a weapon deployed.... There's no way I'm physically intervening. And depending on who's in my immediate charge, possibly not even then.

We've turned into a nation of heathens. Heathens feed on each other. I'm not at all interested in having my family bereft of my support because I'm handicapped by a sense of right and wrong. I can see my wife prodding me to "do something", but chivalry will put me in the kink and transform my kids daily bread into some crack heads daily fix.

Hence, I also prefer to either stay home or socialize within the bounds of civilized society.

 

[quatin]

Atlanta Police

You already know that there's a million little counties that compromise the greater "Atlanta area". There's a small municipal government for each county and they have their own fire/police departments. The one time I had to call the fire department, I was routed twice to the "correct" county department responsible for the area. For them to even do that, they insisted on me finding out just exactly what street crossing I was at so they can look up county lines. I bet the 911 call center had to deal with this trash as well. It helps to just program the local police department phone number and bypass all the operators. IE Gwinnett, Dekalb and etc.