Don't the 9mm's deserve some discussion time?

[230RN]

"45AARP"

Hilarious.

All this reminds me that I grin when I hear how the 7.62 X 39 is equivalent to the .30-30.

To quote tark: "No."

And while it's true that generating "new and improved" products is good for business, I sometimes do more than grin at some of the straining and striving and stressing in firearms companies to develop "new" cartridges by changing case configuration and bullet diameter by a couple of thou.

Or even just one thou.

Think ".22 Jet" and the Smith model 53 revolver.

Big splash and it drowned, even despite the inserts to allow .22 RF to be shot.

I understand there's a small cluster of 22 jet fans, still, but there was basically just a big splash when it came out. I got a boner for it and was about to buy one when I started to read (in printed magazines, i.e. before the net) about the problems.

This thread reminds me of the joke about "NEW AND IMPROVED DISTILLED WATER!"

How about we develop a new cartridge which "fills the gap" between .352 (9mm) and .357 (.38 ) bullet diameters. We can call it the ".3545 Terry" cartridge and make a fortune. For a year and a half.

Hype me not.

Terry, 230RN

 

[21H40]

LE and military usually knows what works for them. If it isn't working they change it. The popularity of 9x19 in both the military and LE has influenced the civilian market for a number of good reasons. I won't go into it but lets just say we, as civilians, generally gravitate toward what they use, in some form. 9x19 is no different.

A good example of this is the 357 Sig, which fell out of favor in the civilian market when LE abandoned it. If the military and LE abandoned the 9x19 I expect the same thing would happen to it. The cartridge is over 120 years old but just became popular in the US about 30 years ago when the military and LE started using it. There are better and worse 9mm cartridges for sure.

One critical part of the LE and military adoption is the balance required for an organization. That's one of the reasons that SF teams get special weapons - only a few are needed and they solve a specific problem. There are competing metrics that matter to large organizations, not just effectiveness. Personally, I think NATO will replace their 9mm's with energy weapons before changing calibers.

Individuals aren't limited by the same bureaucracy, and can pick something that fits their perceive needs specifically. I think the 357 SIG outperforms 9mm's (and ... the 45AARP ) when penetration is considered.

 

[Zendude]

The comparison has some merit back before hollow points were in common use. A jacketed or LRN 38 is somewhat comparable coming out of a 9mm, 380, or 38 special. 357 is a different animal.

 

[Mosin77]

The difference is: 10mm has what most would consider “excessive” power for typical human self-defense applications, much like .357 Magnum. .40 has “a good amount.” 9mm has “a good amount” too. .380 falls into the “not quite powerful enough to reliably expand hollowpoint ammo and still get acceptable penetration. To get the most out of .380 you have to really search for an optimized, boutique loading that performs well in your gun and factor in barrel length and other things. With 9mm and .40 you can pretty much choose any mainstream hollowpoint in any length barrel and it will reliably perform (expand and penetrate) to the level we collectively believe necessary (FBI specs.) Now, one can question whether or not the FBI specs are somewhat arbitrary, but nevertheless the fact is, some calibers can meet the specification far more readily than others.

 

[WrongHanded]

But modern 9mm loads will get 1250-1300 fps with 124 gr bullets which is within 50 fps of the same speeds you'd get with 357 mag from 4" barrels. About the same, or faster than 357 mag from barrels shorter than 4".

The 357 Sig is an interesting round that will beat 9mm by 50 fps or so. But that isn't enough to offset the added costs and reduced mag capacity. At least not for me. I feel about the same about the other faster 9mm cartridges.

Nonsense!

Modern 9mm won't get close to 1300fps with a 124/125gr, nor will 9mm +P, unless a 5" barrel is used. Even then it's barely happening, and typically that's with +P+, which is what pressure exactly?

.357 Sig can hit 1300fps with a 125gr from a 3.5" barrel. Yep, that's factory loads. And with a 4.5" barrel some are hitting 1400fps, even excluding the boutique manufacturers like Underwood and Buffalo Bore.

You can go to Lucky Gunner labs to find information about .357 Sig factory loads from a 4.5" barrel. And you can search this forum to find member chronograph records for factory ammo through a 3.5" barrel.

You can also search Lucky Gunner Labs to find that a 4" barrel .357 Mag is pushing a 125gr at what is often 1425-1450fps.

 

[CoalTrain49]

One critical part of the LE and military adoption is the balance required for an organization. That's one of the reasons that SF teams get special weapons - only a few are needed and they solve a specific problem. There are competing metrics that matter to large organizations, not just effectiveness. Personally, I think NATO will replace their 9mm's with energy weapons before changing calibers.

Individuals aren't limited by the same bureaucracy, and can pick something that fits their perceive needs specifically. I think the 357 SIG outperforms 9mm's (and ... the 45AARP ) when penetration is considered.

Individuals aren't limited by the same bureaucracy, and can pick something that fits their perceive needs specifically.

And that's a good thing. It would be pretty boring if all we had was 9x19 and 5.56. I didn't buy a 9x19 until about 5 years ago. I had a 380 and a 9 Super long before that. Now I have three 9x19 pistols because they're adequate for my SD needs and components to reload are cheaper than most other pistol cartridges. Brass is free for me.

 

[PWC]

Why visit a discussion board then? The internet is pretty much only for discussing things that barely matter, like cats and calibers.

Go to top of page and click on the magnifying glass and enter 9mm then search. You'll find more'n you want.

Already discussed to death. Search for answer before question.

 

[50of4064]

Wait, there's " New and improved distilled water?" !!!!!
Still NO! ( refere to title of post)

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

The 9MMP seems to very fashionable these days, that says a lot.

 

[LimaCharlie]

Odd that the US Army and most police departments would use a "get off me" gun.

Low bid

 

[CapnMac]

Tell that to hipoint.

Actually, something of a fair point by both of you.
I mean, really, somebody built a 'pure' blowback in 9mm largo & Browning Long. I'd not want to shoot the thing, as it would resemble the old Webley Mars, over two-plus pounds to resist the recoil.

Now, over the last century. "we" have found ways to make blowback operation more efficient, by introducing delay functions. Which gets pistols back to "reasonable" weights and sizes. No one of the delayed blowback operations has emerged as the singular "best," which is part of the marvel of firearms engineering.

"9mm" encompasses a huge range of firearms, too. Compare an LCP, or SIG 365 to an Astra 401. There's a "goldilocks" for everyone.

 

[Coyote3855]

Odd that the US Army and most police departments would use a "get off me" gun.

Low bid

Lots of reasons for 9mm prevalence - improved bullet configuration, magazine capacity, compatibility with NATO allies (for the military). I don't think low bid is one of them.

 

[Tinker-S]

Watching/reading the constant, endless caliber debates on THR is like watching the track and field events at the special olympics. At the end of the day all the contestants are ….. winners or losers … still ….. special.

Trophies for everybody!
No pistol left behind!

 

[Tinker-S]

Although I have a firearm, due to the shortage of ammo, I decided not to carry it anymore. Instead, I now carry a blunt object, a softball bat if you will, but now my question is: should I carry a baseball bat or is it more important where to strike at a would-be assailant?
Since we are talking about comparison, I just could not resist to ask the question.

 

[21H40]

Although I have a firearm, due to the shortage of ammo, I decided not to carry it anymore. Instead, I now carry a blunt object, a softball bat if you will, but now my question is: should I carry a baseball bat or is it more important where to strike at a would-be assailant?
Since we are talking about comparison, I just could not resist to ask the question.

Weeelllll... How does the shape of said blunt object compare to a baseball bat? Most bats, when viewed from the top-down, are circular around the center axis. Everyone knows that an oval works better to apply force directly to the necessary place. If you aren't using an oval model then you're really using last century self defense technology.

The REAL question is how do you sit down using appendix carry?

 

[fxvr5]

I would ask why the 9MMP has displaced the 38 Super. For starters, the change in headspacing on the rim to headspacing on the cartridge mouth which improved accuracy.

The reason is that a 9mm can fit in a smaller gun.

 

[fxvr5]

Don't confuse the numbers you see published in ballistics charts with real world speeds. All of the ballistics charts show 357 mag from 7" or 8" barrels; all semi auto rounds from 4" or 5" barrels. You don't see many people carrying 8" barreled 357 mag revolvers for SD, but 4" to 4.5" is pretty much the norm for semi-autos. We shouldn't be surprised to see any rifle or handgun lose considerable speed when 1/2 the barrel is gone.

That is TOTAL BS. Ballistics for the 357 Magnum are from 4.0" vented barrels. See the catalogs from Remington, Winchester, Federal, Speer.

 

[herrwalther]

Why carry a 9mm Parabellum when a 380 is practically the same?

I faced the same question several years ago, but in reverse. At one point I had 6 or 7 380 handguns. All of my 9mms were duty sized, none were single stacks or pocket pistols. So I asked the reverse question why carry a 380 when a 9mm is about the same size? So I sold off all my 380s and bought a PPS M1. A "grail" of mine.

 

[fxvr5]

How about we develop a new cartridge which "fills the gap" between .352 (9mm) and .357 (.38 ) bullet diameters. We can call it the ".3545 Terry" cartridge and make a fortune. For a year and a half.

Specs for a 9mm bullet are .3555".

 

[PWC]

Weeelllll... How does the shape of said blunt object compare to a baseball bat? Most bats, when viewed from the top-down, are circular around the center axis. Everyone knows that an oval works better to apply force directly to the necessary place. If you aren't using an oval model then you're really using last century self defense technology.

The REAL question is how do you sit down using appendix carry?

Don't forget some aluminium bats are hollow points. Do they have better penetration than ball (round nose) or hickory?

 

[230RN]

Specs for a 9mm bullet are .3555".

Ooops. Memory lapse. So we can call it the ".35625 Terry" cartridge.

Let's let my error stand just for my punishment.

Terry, 485RN

 

[Riomouse911]

I have several 9mm auto handguns. I like the cartridges and I like the guns that chamber it. ( PC9, too, but this is a handgun thread.)

I also have .45, .40 and .380 auto handguns, too. Same goes for them, I like the cartridge and the various handguns that chamber these rounds.

I don’t think any one gun/cartridge combo is all that much greater than any other, they all have their plusses and minuses.

Best part of being in the USA; a variety of options can be had.

Stay safe.

 

[Mosin77]

Don't forget some aluminium bats are hollow points. Do they have better penetration than ball (round nose) or hickory?

It was a hotly debated question back in the day. Lightweight aluminum’s speed and agility or the mass and predictable trajectory of solid wood? It was eventually decided that aluminum worked better -so let’s ban it to keep the game interesting.

In our case though, it’s somewhat different. There’s not much difference between one .65” expanded hollowpoint and another, nor between one that penetrates an average of 16” and another that does 17”. Arguably .40 is better on average in both expansion and penetration than 9mm… but is it enough better to justify somewhat less capacity, somewhat greater cost, and somewhat greater recoil? Totally personal question but most of us seem to have opted for the 9mm option.

Whereas 9x17 (.380) is more like .45” and 12”. See the actual numbers at Lucky Gunner, I’m just generalizing from memory. It’s probably adequate to do the job assuming everything’s perfect (good shot placement no odd angles no unusually short barrel) but there’s not much margin for error. So if the choice is .380 vs 9mm in, let’s say, a duty application where there really is no significant advantage to the significantly smaller footprint a .380 firearm can have, then almost everyone would opt for 9mm unless there was some serious question of controllability. (Someone’s recoil and practice averse significant other, or someone’s elderly parent, for example.) On the other hand, 10mm and .357 can be too much of a good thing. You get more recoil, more disorienting blast and flash, and potential overpenetration issues which aren’t the end of the world in themselves but taken together mean a gun that might not be as combat-effective as the slightly less powerful one that should still be plenty for the job.

 

[Ignition Override]

OP: Yes they do.

9mms deserve some discussion. My Sig "P225" and CZ PCR aren't lonely. Die beiden werden oft benutzt....and... Bavi me oboji. What languages are these likely to be? We might have "foreign readers", as I hear rumors that they use the internet very often.

They certainly watch Huge numbers of gun videos made in the US, and comment more fluently than many Americans can.

I avoid any arguing on the internet (try to), because it would be with people I almost never will have a chance to meet.
The fewer people who like the same guns, the less they cost.

-----21H40 mentioned "How do you sit down with appendix carry"? It's bad enough being in the "Don't touch my Junk" zone !

-----As for rational arguements, I would Hope that other "gun guys" here do Not fit into this chart:-----, and if they focus on nitpicking words, they have too few hobbies and should spend more time on Ammoseek (search engine).

 

[jmorris]

FWIW I have a number of 9mm’s that are blow back, so that’s not a deal breaker, in and of itself.

Some they even reduce mass to speed things up or add it to slow them down. Like the difference between these Cobray and Powder Springs MAC10 bolts.



These are certainly more robust than say Marlin Camp 9 bolts, for example.