Don't you just love people who come up to you to tell you the "RIGHT" way to shoot.

[Bonesinium]

when i see joe mall ninja i say nothing its fun to watch em shoot like ***** and occasinally hit the target.

Sometimes those are the guys you should be helping. I would wager that most of these types don't have any sort of training, want to get into shooting (I mean, who doesn't obviously!) but only know what they've seen on tv and in movies. I bet a little instruction would go a long way with a lot of them, but since you already potentially unfairly labeled them as "joe mall ninja" they don't get the help when they may be a lot more receptive to it then you think.

Then again, there are those fools who don't want your help, will be a <jerk> about it, and just want to act like Rambo. The difference is, you can usually tell them apart because they are probably already being rude without anybody even bothering them...

I shoot with people that know how to shoot very well. If they say something, I listen. And i don't go to public ranges.

Not everybody is as fortunate as you...

 

[jeepmor]

I enjoy advice when the approach is correct. Like at the skeet range and I can't the side of a barn from simple observation. However, if I'm drilling my clays and getting advice, I just smile and wait for the advisor to "go away" as I really try to be polite with other people and treat them as I would like to be treated. Respectfully, but if needed, firmly, and then bluntly, please give your advice to someone who wants it.

At the range, the only advice I've ever given is to please be mindful of where that muzzle is pointing sporto. If the person doesn't become mindful quickly, I just wrap up and leave.

 

[Radium]

Bonesinium said

Then again, there are those fools who don't want your help, will be a <jerk> about it, and just want to act like Rambo. The difference is, you can usually tell them apart because they are probably already being rude without anybody even bothering them...

this is what i meant with joe mallninja.

Sometimes those are the guys you should be helping. I would wager that most of these types don't have any sort of training, want to get into shooting (I mean, who doesn't obviously!) but only know what they've seen on tv and in movies. I bet a little instruction would go a long way with a lot of them, but since you already potentially unfairly labeled them as "joe mall ninja" they don't get the help when they may be a lot more receptive to it then you think.

i agree with u. i was one of them. heck probably still am one in the eyes of yie elders.(just a hair over 23 and not stating that i am a professional) but as u said u can clearly tell the difference between a good hearted rookie and a jerk

I dont judge a person by how they look but by how they act. ( its just that most of the time these jerks will max pimpout theyre guns as much as they can and spit out profanity . hence the mallninja term)

 

[RogueLeader]

A friend of mine and I were at a makeshift shooting range in Northern Michigan. A couple of other guys came out there and was unpacking their guns when one of the them with a .444 scoped Marlin looked at my friend who was shooting a Savage 99 .308 with open sights. My friend was shooting at tin cans set up at 100 yards, when the guy with the Marlin told him he should be shooting with a scope as no one could shoot at that range and hit anything with open sites. Well, my friend looked at the guy, and without saying a word, hit 4 cans with 4 shots. The guy with the Marlin put his rifle back in the case and they left without firing a shot.

 

[wanderinwalker]

Luckily (or not?) I think I'm the one who normally offers advice to other shooters at the range. Not that I think I'm a know it all or the best shooter in the world, but I have been shooting longer than my age and appearance indicate. (I'm 27 and will get carded for ANYTHING requiring proof of age over 16 if that tells you anything.)

Sometimes you just see something so patently dangerous or counter-productive you have to step in. Sometimes I see somebody trying to learn on a louden-boomer beginning to develop a flinch and other bad habits. A few quick pointers, some magazines through my .22 and people are generally appreciative of the help. And ocassionally you get the "curious bystander" type who watch you hitting the 25-yard steel plates with a handgun or shooting 200-yards offhand with an iron-sighted rifle. Either way, there are many opportunities to share knowledge.

 

[oldbear]

I think most folks mean well and truly want to help. Yet many just don't understand how to approach a stranger or someone they don't know well. I'm willing to listen to advise from most folks, with the exception of the guy who must let me know how lacking my M-27 is compared to his "super" Glock, and why I need two zillion rounds of ammo with me at all times.

 

[oerllikon]

It can be good, and it can be bad. A family friend(my shooting mentor) said he scored a savage 99 saddle gun in 30-30 for $65 because the guy said it wasnt accurate. Turns out it was the guy behind the gun that wasnt accurate.

I usually avoid it, but i toss a couple of "this is how i do it"'s my cousins way when he is starting to blame his equipment. I usually try not to as well because any information i give is void unless he reads it in field and stream...

If the person seems arrogant, then challenge them to a shooting contest. If they are genuinely are trying to help, I usually listen since Im always looking to improve.

I will almost be satisfied when I can get 5 touching shots with a .22 at 25 yds offhand. I can get 3, but not 5..

Another technique is always "smile and nod"

oh, and wanderingwalker: I just read your post, Im kind of the opposite; Im 18, and DONT get carded when I try to buy ammo to feed my CZ 75

 

[Jesse Heywood]

I have found that since I got big, old, and cranky that no one tries to give me advice on shooting.

 

[Jon Coppenbarger]

Jesse that sounds like me also.

if someone who knows me comes up to me and says something like you know you are doing this and that and doing it this way may help you I listen. It may help or it may not but I will usually give it a whirl.

As far as advice I keep my mouth shut unless asked or it envolves me directly such as a teammate just tossing around ideals or coaching.

I remember some dude years ago the day before a match as I had to travel a little ways to get there I showed up the day before. I wanted to get a little practice in and a day of fishing also.
I was just trying to mind my own bussiness and just get some off hand practice in when he starts telling me his whole life history and wants to teach me how to do it better as he took a class a few years earlier.
It was pretty crowded with 3 full relays the day of the match and I thanked him afterwards for helping me the day before with the tips he gave me.
I wonder what he thought when I won 3 of the 4 stages of the match and the overall. Hoped he thought it was him that did it and he continued to ruin everybodys nice quite practice time.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Learning new techniques when YOU want to is great, unsolicited advice from unknowns on a range is not.

Oh, boy. Glad my son is not posting here. He has taken rifle and pistol coaching from a friend in 82nd Airborne who has military experience from Grenada to Afghanistan and hunting deer on his family property for decades. My son hangs on his every word, pays attention, and adapts his good advice to my son's own style.

My son has also had unsolicited advice from know-it-alls at the range. One was a guy who had invested in all manner of top dollar gear and apparently read all the tacti-cool magazines. My son barely controlled his impulse to tell the guy to go mind your own business, I'll learn from my own mistakes. (The guy later went to a prestigous match with all manner of pre-match bragging, had his clock cleaned and did not want to talk about it when he got back.)

Last episode of "Top Shots" on TV featured an elimination challenge. The homeland security guy had the proper technique with pistol, hand in hand, but the golf instructor (bow-and-arrow archer, not a pistol guy) had learned on the old cup-and-saucer hold. The instructor advised him the cup-and-saucer hold was obsolete, no one uses or teaches it anymore. (The instructor was professional about his suggestion, not like the usually range know-it-all. The golfer/archer refused to change techniques for the challenge.) Long story short, the cup-and-saucer guy won the elimination by a hair (he hit 6 "bad guy" targets no "good guy" targets with cup-and-saucer versus 7 "bad guy" targets and 1 "good guy" target hit using "proper" technique.)

When giving advice at the range stop and think: am I sounding like a smart aleck? Does what works for me really work for everyone? After all, I switch at times between hand-in-hand (when I notice my left hand is flinching from recoil) to cup-in-saucer and back again. And it doesn't hurt to do a few left-hand-wounded/right-hand-wounded drills either if you are serious about defensive use of guns. Plus a silhouette shooter at the range probably would not want to hear my advice on how to face down a feral pack of rabid Cujos after being snake bit on my good hand.

 

[mcdonl]

Good post Carl...

I will add on to your last paragraph... the OP said something along the lines of "Who cares how you hold your gun...." and while the contestant did win with an outdated shooting style I would guess that if the "receiver" of advice, we say starting out in IDPA and the giver of advice was experienced that the advice should be considered and that the way the gun is held does matter.

Shooting at paper targets at the range for stationary shooting is one thing, but shooting for competition is another.

In the highland athletics world there are some grips and techniques used to throw 56 pound weights and cabers... some have come along with their own style, but precious few have been able to be competitors on a world class level doing so. When your peers are winning, their advice should matter.

 

[LiveLife]

Carl, I agree with mcdonl.

There are other factors we may not know from the TV show. Although the golf instructor used the "cup-and-saucer" technique, he may had more trigger time than the homeland security guy and that may explain the "win by a hair". Just because someone is LEO does not mean that they spend a lot of time at the range practicing. I have relatives who are Sheriff/Police officers and they hardly have time for "recreational range shooting". My wife can out shoot them both in accuracy and speed using the same Glock 22, which is their duty weapon, but she has a lot more trigger time than them.

At matches, when we had new shooters start, we let them run the way "they were taught or want to" first (of course, the range/course safety is covered). Mind you, some of these shooters were law enforcement and military with previous firearms training. We also had shooters who shot cup-and-saucer all of their lives and did pretty well, at first. When their stage times stagnate and don't improve, they start asking questions and seek information as to why.

That's when we explain that shooting is like auto racing - it has evolved. Techniques that used to work 50 years ago, no longer work as well as newer techniques. I started out with stiff armed combat isosceles stance 16 years ago, but now use more natural bent-at-the-elbows stance. We video tape (HD camcorders) their stage runs and point out aspects of their run that could have benefited from better/faster techniques.

I don't give shooting advise/tips to other shooters at the range as to what is best/proper as different techniques will work for different people. When they ask, I just show them what I do and works for me. If they want, I have them duplicate and compare shots groups with their techniques vs mine. If they inquire about further training, I direct them to training courses offered by different ranges/groups and various online sites.

One RO told me that ultimately, what matters is the holes on target - "Holes on target speaks volumes".

 

[mgmorden]

There are other factors we may not know from the TV show. Although the golf instructor used the "cup-and-saucer" technique, he may had more trigger time than the homeland security guy and that may explain the "win by a hair".

As said by both of them, the guy who lost had been shooting for over 20 years. The guy who won was primarily an archer and bought his first gun only a year ago.

 

[LiveLife]

the guy who lost had been shooting for over 20 years. The guy who won was primarily an archer and bought his first gun only a year ago.

mgmorden, you bring up a good point.

Obviously, what the archer did in one year was enough to better the score of someone who shot over 20 years. I wonder what things the shooter was doing wrong.

 

[BullfrogKen]

I thought I knew what I was doing and had all the answers back in my early twenties, too.


I'm glad that young kid grew up. I'd be no better if I didn't listen to someone else.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. – Aristotle

^^^^^
That sig sums it up pretty well for me.

 

[Frank Ettin]

the guy who lost had been shooting for over 20 years. The guy who won was primarily an archer and bought his first gun only a year ago.

mgmorden, you bring up a good point.

Obviously, what the archer did in one year was enough to better the score of someone who shot over 20 years. I wonder what things the shooter was doing wrong.

We're talking about the new shooter narrowly beating the experienced shooter one time. That really doesn't mean anything.

Anyone who has much competition experience has seen a champion lose to a relative rookie on occasion. It happens. What really counts is a consistent level of performance.

 

[Sport45]

The TV camera and millions (okay, maybe hundreds ) of potential viewers may have leveled the playing field some too.

 

[QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW]

learn something new every day, ever hear that before? i try to every day wether its at work (automotive tech) or shooting guns, it doesn't hurt to listen.

 

[okiefired]

I dont care if you shoot one ragged hole every day, if your technique is wrong it may one day come back to bite you in the ass at the worst possible moment. There's a reason professionals teach and train the way they do, its called experience.

There's some things I've noticed in just about all people that are the best at what they do. They are very open minded, they listen to everything, and they speak when needed.

okie

 

[Dave21]

Backwards

I'm not in LE, or the military and haven't ever been professionally 'instructed' or taught how to shoot, and am actually coming from the other direction...If I'm at the range I usually walk around and look at whose doing well and ask them if they wouldn't mind watching me shoot after they're done. I've gotten advice from LE, military personnel, competitive shooters, and Old Farts who've been shooting so long its in their blood. I still have my own style of shooting, but have gotten better from asking people for advice. I went from a foot of spray at 7 yards on my first trip to the range when I was 18 to being able to place my shots at 25 yards. I'm not a pro whose gonna try out for TOP SHOT, but feel like I can hold my own now.....all because I listened to what more experienced shooters had to say. The trick is implementing their advice with what you want and what will help you.

 

[RancidSumo]

You can be using a technique that lets you hit the target but still isn't ideal. A different technique could let you hit it faster or let you be able to move more effectively while shooting.

 

[Dulvarian]

A good friendly, non-intrusive method of being able to offer advice to the person next to you that does not display perfect stance/grip/accuracy is to simply do well standing next to them.

Mention that if they want any help or advice you would be more than willing to help out. If they ask, your advice will likely be well heeded. There are some obvious mistakes that people make, and so long as what they are doing is of no danger to themselves or you, whatever.

I have stopped a person from firing on a lane next to me when I saw that the young man's weak hand thumb was behind the slide. I think I scared him a little, but I think saving a serious injury to himself was worth it. He thanked me, and then shot really well. (Left hand thumb was basically sitting right beneath the sights on the back of a Glock. While some might have let him do it, what is going to happen when he gets injured? Is he going to have a ND or two while dealing with the injury?)

I saw another man shooting terribly with an AR, and I told him that if he wanted I would give him some pointers. Turned out, he didn't really understand what he should be looking at for the sight picture. Thirty seconds and he went from all over to bullseyes.

Be polite. It goes a long way. If they aren't receptive, wish them well and continue about your business. The only downside to helping other people shoot is that you might get less trigger time in that day.

On an unrelated note, changing things usually gets you focused back on basics. Breath control, trigger control, not anticipating shots, controlling recoil. Just like picking up a new gun.

 

[MarkDozier]

I don't give advice, but if I see something not right l will ask if I can make a suggestion or recommendation that might help. Nearly every time I do this ppl listen and about 90% of what I share they use. Trigger squeze, breath control and most important other then that SAFE handling of guns is to have fun.

 

[Bonesinium]

After reading some of these responses I can see even more reasons why people don't like when others try and give you unwanted advice.

Examples:

You can be using a technique that lets you hit the target but still isn't ideal. A different technique could let you hit it faster or let you be able to move more effectively while shooting.

I dont care if you shoot one ragged hole every day, if your technique is wrong it may one day come back to bite you in the ass at the worst possible moment.

I'm certainly not saying either of you are wrong, but you may simply be missing the reason they are shooting. Not everybody is out there shooting to be a combat shooter, or shooting for self defense training. Lots of people go out to target shoot. And only target shoot. If someone is using the "wrong" technique, yet shooting out the same hole, there is a good chance that is their reason for shooting. They might not care if there is a better way to get shots on target faster.

Not everybody shoots for the same reason. Not everybody uses the same techniques. Just because one technique is what is being taught now doesn't mean that it won't change later, because most standards now were NOT the standard in the past.

I'm not saying don't try and help people, but be aware that sometimes, your help can be a hindrance if not simply unwanted. Other times it can be greatly appreciated. So maybe before you try and help someone, just ask them if they want some advice, or what there reason for shooting is.

 

[thorn726]

you would think a person might take a look at your results before trying to "help"... in my case i could use the help// funny how people are so eager to offer useless advice without determining who they are talking to first