Training people?

[Axis II]

As some of you may know from a previous post a female friend of mine (not GF or together) purchased a 357 revolver and is having a heck of a time shooting it. She's never touched a firearm before and been to the range 2 times and man those targets at 15ft are terrible! lol. She has been bugging me to take her to the range and give her some instruction but I'm a hair worried but not sure i should be.

She is in the process of trying to go through a divorce and purchased the gun for protection and just general fun. I went over basic stuff with her just in passing conversation and her asking questions but I'm a little reluctant to actually take her to the range and show her how to properly use it.

I ran it by a mutual friend I shoot with a lot and he says he would not do it because right now if they get into it per say she cant hit the broad side of a barn but teach her and if she does have to defend herself or loses her cool it could fall back on me.

I feel bad she goes to the range and can only hit a man target 5-10 times out of a box of ammo but I'm also worried i open myself up to liability.

 

[somethingbenign]

I wouldn't hesitate but I've never even really considered being liable for her actions. Is there precedent of trainers being liable for the education being used? Would there be some kind of work around since you would just be going over basics and not advanced skills? Really interested in what someone more qualified has to say on this as I have a few friends that have asked for help as well.

 

[Jenrick]

If you are teaching tactics, there can be some liability attached. If you are simply teaching the basics of gun handling and marksmanship, there really isn't much to worry about . Provided you aren't teaching something completely off the wall AND she doesn't throw you under the buss ("X Taught me to shoot the gun upside down!") you'll be good. Using something well established like the NRA basic curriculum or the like, provides and even bigger backstop.

 

[cheygriz]

Teach her gun safety and basic marksmanship, not tactics.

Secondly, consider how you would feel if HE kills HER!

Third. Put .38 special ammo in her .357 and see that she has good earmuffs.

 

[reddog81]

I've never heard of liability for training someone the basics. If she's that bad of a shot she's probably flinching like crazy and sending bullets into the dirt or off into the wild blue yonder.

What gun does she have? I tiny lightweight J frame is going to be a lot harder to shoot than a full size gun. For learning you need something that fits your hand and has good sights. Often times ladies just pick a small gun that looks cute as a first gun, while men grab the most massively powerful thing they can find and in both scenarios the results are equally poor.

 

[Axis II]

If you are teaching tactics, there can be some liability attached. If you are simply teaching the basics of gun handling and marksmanship, there really isn't much to worry about . Provided you aren't teaching something completely off the wall AND she doesn't throw you under the buss ("X Taught me to shoot the gun upside down!") you'll be good. Using something well established like the NRA basic curriculum or the like, provides and even bigger backstop.

Yeah, just basic skills such as grip, sights, etc. There would be no way I'm going to teach her room clearing or barricades. She text me a target the other night and says see i did a good job! I said how many rounds did you fire and she said a box i was like where is the rest of the holes lol.

 

[Axis II]

I've never heard of liability for training someone the basics. If she's that bad of a shot she's probably flinching like crazy and sending bullets into the dirt or off into the wild blue yonder.

What gun does she have? I tiny lightweight J frame is going to be a lot harder to shoot than a full size gun. For learning you need something that fits your hand and has good sights. Often times ladies just pick a small gun that looks cute as a first gun, while men grab the most massively powerful thing they can find and in both scenarios the results are equally poor.

Model 60 pro series.

 

[Wisco]

From everything I’ve read about this whole situation - from her buying the gun up to this point of wanting you to train her - my advice is have her go to an NRA instructor or someone that has experience training complete beginners. You haven’t been really kind to her, or helpful, in your admonishments to her or of her here.

That said, I would not train someone who isn’t an immediate family member (child or spouse) unless I was operating as instructor under the umbrella of an LLC - with much formal training of my own, insurance, a private range, and everything else a business of this nature entails.

I’ve seen way too many “gun guys” trying to teach others - almost everyone I see is out of their depth. It’s a lot to teach and do it well - to do it perfectly yourself as a demonstration, get your trainee to do it perfectly while you make constant and timely corrections, and keep them doing it perfectly through an entire box, much less an entire case, of ammo.

NRA instructors are usually pretty good. Stick with them for basics.

https://www.nrainstructors.org/search.aspx

The next basic pistol course closest to me is $125 for an 8 hour course. Led by a NRA certified instructor. This is what she needs as a complete novice.

 

[Axis II]

From everything I’ve read about this whole situation - from her buying the gun up to this point of wanting you to train her - my advice is have her go to an NRA instructor or someone that has experience training complete beginners. You haven’t been really kind to her, or helpful, in your admonishments to her or of her here.

That said, I would not train someone who isn’t an immediate family member (child or spouse) unless I was operating as instructor under the umbrella of an LLC - with much formal training of my own, insurance, a private range, and everything else a business of this nature entails.

I’ve seen way too many “gun guys” trying to teach others - almost everyone I see is out of their depth. It’s a lot to teach and do it well - to do it perfectly yourself as a demonstration, get your trainee to do it perfectly while you make constant and timely corrections, and keep them doing it perfectly through an entire box, much less an entire case, of ammo.

NRA instructors are usually pretty good. Stick with them for basics.

https://www.nrainstructors.org/search.aspx

The next basic pistol course closest to me is $125 for an 8 hour course. Led by a NRA certified instructor. This is what she needs as a complete novice.

I'm over being upset about her buying the gun because Cabelas made good on it and knocked it down to price match 3-4 other places.

On another note-how about a ccw class instead of the NRA class this way she gets her permit and some training? I have no clue how watered down the ccw classes or NRA classes are compared to each other. I watched her hold it one night and she doesn't grip the grip all the way so this could be her issues and her stance is all jacked up with the lean back and arms close to her chest. I figured I would try and fix that and see what happens. She also has a bad habit with sweeping people. I spoke with her about sweeping people so that's fixed.

Yeah, I did bust her chops about it and my comment in the OP about her firing 50rds and only hitting it 5-10 times and where did the rest of them go was said in laughing and I was called a jerk and laughed with. I guess being around this stuff since I was in diapers and having professional training I get a bit touchy and didn't realize she had no clue what she was doing. I have apologized to her and all is well.

I'm going to find a ccw instructor for her or the NRA class.

 

[Telekinesis]

Teaching someone HOW to shoot isn't likely to carry much liability as long as you stick to normal stuff. Teaching someone WHEN to shoot is a different matter. If she walks up to her husband/soon to be ex husband and shoots him in the head and when arrested says "OP told me I could shoot if I fealt threatened", well you can see where that goes... you might not be charged (or sued in civil court), but it's a whole bunch of crap that you don't want to deal with.

The recommendations to send her to a NRA Basic course are good. While I'm not the biggest fan of the course itself, it does do a good job of taking someone from never having shot before to at least being safe with the gun.

It takes a special type of person/personality/skill set and a lot of knowledge to really be a good and effective teacher. A lot of people (if they were honest with themselves) would admit that they don't have it. And those that do can still screw it up sometimes, especially when they're just getting started in teaching (I know I did).

For example, tell a long time shooter (and hopefully friend) that his group really sucks, and you'll get a response like "haha yeah, I had an off day". Tell that to a new shooter and they either will stop shooting, or at least stop telling you about it.

My general recipie (after basic safety is covered and practiced) is show & EXPLAIN the correct form, encourage, let them do something wrong (not dangerous, just not the best way), encourage, make 1 small adjustment, let them shoot again, encourage, ask how that second time felt compared to the first time (generally you get a "yeah, that was better!") and then encourage and continue.

Note how much encouragement was in there. I also don't shoot when I teach people unless they ask to see a demo. A lot of the time I'm not even looking at their target either. Watch their form - if the form is right, the target will take care of itself.

Edit:
I'd start with the NRA class. Get her hitting the target before you get her thinking about carrying.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

I would suggest finding a ladies oriented class for basics.
I teach a ladies only class once a week. Been doing it for 3 years now and the results have been encouraging.

She may also benefit from borrowing a larger framed revolver with 38's to get the fundamentals down, then moving back to her Model 60.
Many times I will loan my ladies a Ruger GP 100 with a 6 inch barrel and throw some target 38's in there. I have yet to have anyone not enjoy the experience.

Small guns are just harder to shoot.

As for stance, form, trigger press, etc, that is often better received from someone titled "Instructor" than anyone else.

The information is the same, but there is something humans like about titles.

 

[Swifty Morgan]

As a lawyer, I would be amazed to see anyone get traction with a legal claim that an instructor was responsible for the death of a person who attacked a student. I suppose such things might be possible in Illinois, Hawaii, and California, but it stretches credibility.

There is a tort called negligent entrustment. If you give a pistol to a 3-year-old on PCP, you can be sued if he shoots someone. Not really the same thing as showing a person who is already armed a better way to shoot.

To prove negligence, you have to prove:

1. the defendant had a duty of care with regard to the plaintiff;
2. the defendant breached that duty;
3. the plaintiff was harmed; and
4. the harm was caused by the breach.

How would a lawyer prove you owed it to some unknown future criminal not to teach his victim how to shoot? That's element #1. How would he prove you didn't warn the shooter to obey the law to the letter? That's element #2. How would you prove the death of the wife beater or burglar or whatever was caused by your lessons? That's element #4. I'd argue that even poor shots manage to kill people, and I'd challenge the plaintiff to prove the shooter would have missed without lessons.

Disclaimer: I'm not giving you legal advice. For all I know, blue state jails are full of NRA-certified instructors. If you really want a good answer, pay a lawyer (not one who hangs out on forums) and see what he says.

The correct answer to any question about the law is always, "Pay a lawyer and find out, or do your best on your own and hope for the best." Any lawyer who pretends to give you solid advice on a forum is a hack who needs an ethics course.

 

[Wisco]

I'm over being upset about her buying the gun because Cabelas made good on it and knocked it down to price match 3-4 other places.

On another note-how about a ccw class instead of the NRA class this way she gets her permit and some training? I have no clue how watered down the ccw classes or NRA classes are compared to each other. I watched her hold it one night and she doesn't grip the grip all the way so this could be her issues and her stance is all jacked up with the lean back and arms close to her chest. I figured I would try and fix that and see what happens. She also has a bad habit with sweeping people. I spoke with her about sweeping people so that's fixed.

Yeah, I did bust her chops about it and my comment in the OP about her firing 50rds and only hitting it 5-10 times and where did the rest of them go was said in laughing and I was called a jerk and laughed with. I guess being around this stuff since I was in diapers and having professional training I get a bit touchy and didn't realize she had no clue what she was doing. I have apologized to her and all is well.

I'm going to find a ccw instructor for her or the NRA class.

Know your instructor is the best advice I can give then. All CCW courses are not equal, although meeting some arbitrary minimum state standard.

For example, your CCW instructor at one my local indoor ranges could be a former national guard soldier who never made any appreciable rank, never saw combat, never received quality training himself, and if he did, it was on a carbine and team tactics, but is nonetheless is the LGS's military veteran tactical trainer or some such nonsense... never even carried a pistol or trained with one during the time he's using on his resume as the basis to be qualified as an instructor. When I asked the gunshop owner what the average credentials of their traning staff was, I was demanded to prove my credentials before I question theirs...as a customer looking to get my fiance into a CCW class.

Last thought - people who suggest professional trainers are spot on. The instruction is better received from an emotionally detached third party. Ask my fiance how much she liked me teaching her the basics of shooting - frustrating to say the least. We agreed to leave her poor form, poor grip and poor trigger press mostly alone as long as she could keep hitting a torso from 10 yards 100% of the time with 100% safety...

 

[JTHunter]

Yeah, just basic skills such as grip, sights, etc. There would be no way I'm going to teach her room clearing or barricades. She text me a target the other night and says see i did a good job! I said how many rounds did you fire and she said a box i was like where is the rest of the holes lol.

Maybe not "barricades" per se, but shooting from concealment such as behind a kitchen counter or a wall's corner to shield herself wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[Browning]

I've never heard of liability for training someone the basics.

Me either.

I get that we live in a sue happy society, but it just seems like at least one of the major companies (Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, LFI and even some of the smaller companies and trainers like Sage Dynamics and Tac-Pro etc) would have been subject to a suit as the result of actions taken by a student in a lethal encounter by now if that were the case. I know for a fact that some of them have had students that have been involved in shootings because at almost every class I've been to they discussed the cases of former students who were involved and shootings. They didn't give any names or locations (they seemed to protect their identities carefully much like medical professionals with HIPPA), but they gave the basics (situations and outcomes just like we do in emergency medicine to discuss what went right and what went wrong). Never heard of that happening. Some of them have even become involved in their cases as an expert witnesses, so it's not like the court and the prosecutor didn't know that the school was involved in training that individual.

I seriously doubt that teaching a friend the basics of gun handling and marksmanship is going to get you sued.

 

[WrongHanded]

Sounds like she needs some formal tuition on safe gun handling.

As far as practical shooting instruction goes, maybe just show her technique with dry-fire (and good practice for ensuring the gun stays unloaded during such activity). Then let her go back to the range and see how she does.

 

[JONWILL]

Couple of thoughts
I agree with others. A professional trainer is the best option
If that is a no go then there are 3?other things I recommend
1. Get a laser. Start with dry fire. It will show you everything wrong with her shooting. Pulling right /left/ anticipation of recoil. She will probably get better just looking at the dot on the target and squeezing the trigger trying to keep t centered
2. They still have primer powered rubber bullets. No recoil and hardly and noise
3. I personally loaded some serious powder puff 38 specials for my wife to learn shooting.

 

[Mn Fats]

Depends. Is she a real friend or some kind of work friend. I wouldn't hesitate to help a true friend no matter the circumstance. Nothing wrong (or difficult) in helping someone with the basics of shooting before they take a ccw class. I'm not sure of her shooting history but if she jumped right in with a .357 mag snubbie, I wouldn't criticize her poor shooting. That can be hard even for a veteran. If you have a .22 revolver or a rental available, start her with that. Then to .38s and finally to .357s.

 

[mcmurry]

The first time my wife and I took a CCW class, I took her out the weekend before and taught her to shoot. The class only required a person to make 15 out of 20 hits. She got 17. I was not able to renew that license. When I re took a class with a different instructor, I ran out of shells because he made us fire 75 rounds. But when I renewed that one, he told me that to renew according to Arkansas's regs, "Shooter must make a single bullet come out of barrel of gun." I've never seen a CCW instructor give lessons, and only recently found someone in my county who was a registered NRA shooting instructor.

 

[Walkalong]

Teach her how to hold it, teach her trigger discipline, tell her to practice.

 

[BigBore44]

Teach her how to hold it, teach her trigger discipline, tell her to practice.

Yes.YEs. YES!

Also OP, If you can reload for her, loaf her some light 38 loads with Unique and plated bullets would really help. There’s only a couple reasons She’s having trouble.
1. Poor target acquisition/sight picture
2. Recoil sensitivity/poor trigger control.

She needs to dry fire...a lot. Also, if you have an IPhone, record her shooting on slow motion and review it with her. You’ll know pretty fast where her problems are coming from.

Is she cross eye dominant by any chance?

 

[FL-NC]

I don't see a liability issue with teaching a person the basics of marksmanship, provided that person is allowed to possess the firearm in question (it sounds like she is). The NRA basics of firearms safety, familiarization with the chosen firearm, followed by a live fire range session where these lessons are applied. I would use standard bullseye targets, and document the training, along with keeping the targets used. Just some informal marksmanship.
I know a few people in NC who are licensed to give the required state mandated training for CCW. They literally read everything verbatim, do not answer hypotheticals, and the training for the live fire portion stays neatly in the bracket of insuring that they pass the live fire portion. Records of attendance, payments, and range scores are filed away, along with the bullseye targets with the student's name, the date, and the model/caliber of firearm used. Every student ends up with his/her own file. In the event an instructor is called into court, records show that the state mandated training was followed to a "T"- nothing more, nothing less.

 

[warnerwh]

If you decide to teach her and have a .22 handgun I would use that to teach her the basics. The distraction from the blast and recoil of most centerfires is unnecessary. Also I hope she hasn't been using full power .357 magnum loads to learn because that is a great way to alienate someone from firearms permanently. She may have developed a horrible flinch if she has been using full power .357 loads. I believe in training someone with a .22 to start because they can concentrate on fundamentals. I've been shooting over 50 years and own two .357 magnum revolvers and I load medium loads because I don't care for shooting full power loads even though both guns can take full power loads all day. Good luck

 

[Gottcha]

I read through most reply and there is a lot of good info.....
That being said I just took my wife to the range for the first time. She is pro gun but is terrified of them. I rented her a 22lr pistol (she knows all the safety rules) and had her practice with that for about 100 rounds. Stressing safety and aiming she did great with the 22lr. So I moved her up to the 9mm. I believe that scared her on the first shot(it's a big move up from 22lr) but she did awesome! If your going to teach some one man or women start small and with the basics while stressing on safety.

 

[Milt1]

Put yourself in her place like you're asking her to teach you and go from there. If she's a friend I see nothing wrong with her asking and you teaching. Sound like fun to me unless, and I get this feeling from your writing, that perhaps there's something there that you aren't sure of and I don't think it's the training bit.