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I wouldn’t carry out your training plan. It’s not a good way to learn - it’s great way to frustrate her, possibly scare her, and turn her away.

Aiming. Trigger press. Recoil management through grip and stance.

Do not surprise her with live ammo. Use dummy rounds to diagnose problems, not surprise live ammo. A surprise silence when you expect a bang isn’t the same mentally as a bang when you expect silence.
 
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I wouldn’t carry out your training plan. It’s not a good way to learn - it’s great way to frustrate her, possibly scare her, and turn her away.

Aiming. Trigger press. Recoil management through grip and stance.

Do not surprise her with live ammo. Use dummy rounds to diagnose problems, not surprise live ammo. A surprise silence when you expect a bang isn’t the same mentally as a bang when you expect silence.
I grew up hunting with a bad flinch and that’s what helped me. We decided to go tonight and I had her dry fire and noticed jerking of the trigger and her anticipation of the gun going off. She admitted that she does anticipate it a lot so I said I’m putting 3 shots and 2 duds and explained why and go through the cylinder without stopping! she said it wasn’t an issue anymore with being scared of it going off. Instead of slapping the trigger we went sa and tip of finger. Modified weaver stance and 5 shots in a pie plate at 15ft. After awhile we went to da only and she had some issues with jerking. She said the first shots she would dread so dry fire somewhat fixed it! Shot 50rds of my 9mm and didn’t like it but she’s not scary with that 38spl. 357 wasn’t fun at all out of it! Grip was terrible she wouldn’t grip high on back strap but very low. Safety was horrible but I was calm and nice. she had a blast I had to beg her to quit! Lol.

She said she liked how I explained why I was doing something and the attention to detail. she jerked and flinched bad but now it appears gone. She would slap the crap out of the trigger which still needs some work, safety needs more work especially when she pointed gun at the ground and pulled trigger to check if it had a live round! She swiped me one time I didn’t jump her crap just nicely asked and advised! She fired a box of 38spl and 40rds of 357 after I helped her and man she can shoot! I’ll post pics tomorrow!
 
Question and suggestion.
How do you lock out both arms in a Weaver stance? I believe the Weaver requires the operating arm to be locked while the support arm is partially flexed. Perhaps you mean the modified Weaver? If so, fine.

Suggestion, whatever stance is used, watch for proper forward balance at the knees/waist (no backward lean).

Good luck to both of you.
Modified sorry!
 
I'm late to this thread, but perhaps my experience will give the OP some ideas. And I also think that finding a good instructor is a fine idea.

I'm with a group of instructors putting on a monthly Basic Handgun class (originally it was an NRA Basic Handgun class -- our class hasn't changed but the NRA class has). We're older guys, most of us retired or close to it. We've all done a fair bit of shooting and training -- multiple classes at Gunsite, classes with a number of instructors like Massad Ayoob or Louis Awerbuck, USPSA or IDPA competition, NRA instructor certifications, and three are POST certified. Our training group is organized as a 501(c)(3) corporation. We're all volunteers, and none of use receive any compensation (except the company buys us dinner after the class where we do a debriefing). Our class fees are set to just cover our expenses and operating costs. We supply everything -- guns, ammunition, eye and ear protection, a book on California gun laws, etc.

Probably 80% to 90% of our students had never touched a real gun before. Our class enrollment runs roughly 30% female. We have students of all ages from early 20s to us more seasoned types. We've had entire families attend together.

Most of our student show varying levels of anxiety at handling real guns. We try to address this by bringing them through the course material in a step-by-step, measured and supportive way. We limit class size to 10 students, and will have at least five or six instructors at each class. The class runs about ten hours, but we try to provide adequate breaks. Periodically we discuss breaking the class up into two days; but since we often have students travel from some distance doing so might be a greater hardship.

In addition to the core lectures, the first of which is on safety, we do a lot of "hands-on" work with the students. The students handle a variety of revolvers and semi-autos under direct supervision, one-on-one, of an instructor. They use dummy rounds to load and unload the guns, dry fire and generally learn how things work and feel, and they get continual safety reinforcement.

These initial hands-on exercises help students get familiar with handling a gun and lay a foundation for safe gun handling habits. For beginners handling guns for the first time is pretty awkward. Guns feel strange in the their hands. Many are surprised by how heavy they are. They have no sense of how much or how little force is needed to operate the various "do-dads." The students begin to realize that although guns can be dangerous they can learn how to handle them safely and that safety is in their hands.

In preparation for live fire we put on a lecture and demonstration about how to actually shoot (grip, stance, sight alignment, trigger press, surprise break, focus on the front sight, and eye dominance). I usually do this one, and I like to use an airsoft gun fitted with a Crimson Trace laser grip to illustrate a controlled trigger press compared with jerking the trigger (and see this thread for a discussion about trigger control). We then work one-on-one with students on grip and stance using "blue" inert training guns.

Before going to live fire with .22s, the students shoot airsoft (the quality type) in the classroom so they can get a feel for sight alignment and trigger control (and reset) without the noise and intimidation factor (for beginners) of firing real ammunition.

After the students fire their 25 rounds of .22 (working one-on-one with an instructor), we put out a variety of guns from 9mm to .44 Magnum so the students can get the experience of firing the larger calibers. Shooting the centerfire guns is at each student's option. Most fire them all, but some choose not to.

During the live fire exercises it's not uncommon for a student to shoot 2 to 3 inch groups at seven yards with even the heavy calibers. A few months ago, a petite young woman who had never fired any type of gun before out shot everyone, including her husband, with the .44 Magnum -- putting three rounds into about an inch at 7 yards.

Going through our process most students shed a good deal of their initial anxiety. Some remain anxious to a degree but still manage to master their anxiety and perform well. In the last several years only one or two (out of perhaps a couple of hundred) could not complete the class.

Some time ago got an email from a student. She is a very petite Asian woman who is a PhD candidate in statistics at Stanford. She wrote:
Dear BayProfs,

Just wanted to say I had a great time at the Basic Pistol class this weekend. The class was very thoughtfully organized; it was very helpful to progress from watching the instructors, to doing the hands-on practice, to doing the real deal. I really appreciate how patient you all were in answering our questions and giving us feedback. So thanks a lot! I will try to send some of my friends your way, assuming I can convince them not to be scared of guns....
 
Lord help me now!!

Ive already been asked 3 times since Friday night when can we go again and now she wants a full size auto. I said wooohh slow down just get familiar with that you have and go from there in like a year or so. The shoot n c was done with her model 60 and my 9mm full size. The cardboard one was done with 38spl and 357mag. Both at 20ft. The shoot n c target is one of those very small ones. Her past shooting she couldn't hit either of those but 3-5 times.

I figured out she was doing the lean back with her legs scissored. I showed her knees slightly bent, slightly lean forward and arms locked out, front sight aligned with rears, lightly squeeze the trigger. As I said in another post she was slapping the trigger bad and jerking anticipating the shot. Once she put 200 rounds down range between 3 handguns she wasn't scared of it anymore.
 

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I suspect that's right, but it isn't right if you know what I mean.:confused:
What I mean is this: My wife learned to shoot with a single-action, 22 rimfire revolver. And as far as handguns go, that's all she had for many years. So pulling the hammer back as the gun comes up is as natural to her as flicking the safety off on my 1911 is to me.
Nevertheless, my wife's primary CCW handgun is a Glock 42. She has an old DA/SA j-frame though, and I guarantee that when she practices with it (or any DA/SA revolver for that matter) 9 times out of 10 she automatically pulls the hammer back as the gun comes up. She has to really think about it in order to practice firing a revolver double action. It just wouldn't be right for a lawyer to pick her apart for thumbing the hammer back on a double action revolver before putting a bullet in someone intending to do her harm.:uhoh:
I'm not arguing though ohihunter. Like I said: "I suspect that's right, but it isn't right if you know what I mean.";)
She fired most of her shots in SA because this revolver having the typical smith tight action and heavy DA trigger she had a hard time squeezing it. I suggested snap caps and dry fire while watching TV. I took a break and she says I'm gonna blow off this box so I notice she is firing awfully fast so I walk up next to her and she's cocking the hammer and firing and it was pretty quick. No autos for her for awhile though. She got mine going a little too fast and had a hard time hitting anything. She is pretty good with it controlled fire though.
 
Remind her that the only time to rip through a box of ammo is if you have money burning a hole in your pocket. Precise placement is preferable to speed. Ask her to find out how fast she can put a full cylinder into a saucer without flyers and how close she has to be to do it.
 
Remind her that the only time to rip through a box of ammo is if you have money burning a hole in your pocket. Precise placement is preferable to speed. Ask her to find out how fast she can put a full cylinder into a saucer without flyers and how close she has to be to do it.
It was getting late and she was having so much fun I figured if she wanted to go through a box or 3 boxes let her do it since she was so excited to actually hit anything. We will work on other things next time I'm available to take her. Those shots done on the cardboard were fairly quick and around 20ft away. It was quite muddy so we hung around the 20ft mark as to not lose a shoe in the mud.
 
I kept telling my ex she needed to slow down because she was trying to shoot too fast. Her accuracy was suffering for it. So I set up two new targets.

I let her continue on for one target. 3 hits of 7 shots.

Then I handed her another magazine and told her to aim at the other target, but this time I wanted her to count to 3 in her head before firing again. That target was 6 hits out of 7 shots.

She understood after that.
 
I have never understood the obsession with forcing women to carry revolvers. Once gun people get ahold of a bad idea, they perpetuate it as though it were gospel. It's like the nonsense about burglars pooping their pants when they hear someone racking a pump shotgun. Yeah, that will work. Don't bother loading it.

I don't believe there are many women who can't figure out a Glock. I have never met a woman that stupid.

Semiautos are lighter and easier to shoot, and they hold more ammunition. A woman is much better off with 7 or 11 rounds of 9mm than 5 rounds of anemic .38 Special.

Dang good post here. I was trying to understand where she came up with the revolver in the first place...likely from some 'expert" behind a gun counter who thinks women need revolvers because they are "easy".

To all the folks who are recommending she seek "professional help", I'd like to know if you yourself sought professional help before you began shooting, or did you learn from a relative/friend/neighbor/on your own? I'm NOT in any way saying professional instruction is bad. I've gone to quite of a few classes myself, including a few Gunsite classes as well as some local (TX) classes. My point is that it isn't necessary to send them off to a class first thing just to bring a new shooter into the fold and teach them the 4 Rules and basics on shooting.

I make new shooters watch Clint

( )

and take a couple quick tips from Rob

( ).

Then we hit the range, where I double them up on hearing protection (foam inserts and shooter muffs) and shoot a few hundred rounds at 3-5 yards with a .22.

Bottom line...if she's your friend, show her the videos above, and take her out to shoot. If you have a .22, start with that for a few hundred rounds. Make it easy to hit the target...

I suspect she wouldn't have asked if she didn't trust you...
 
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Dang good post here. I was trying to understand where she came up with the revolver in the first place...likely from some 'expert" behind a gun counter who thinks women need revolvers because they are "easy".

To all the folks who are recommending she seek "professional help", I'd like to know if you yourself sought professional help before you began shooting, or did you learn from a relative/friend/neighbor/on your own? I'm NOT in any way saying professional instruction is bad per se, just that it isn't necessary to bring a new shooter into the fold and teach them the 4 Rules and basics on shooting.

I make new shooters watch Clint

( )

and take a couple quick tips from Rob

( ).

Then we hit the range, where I double them up on hearing protection (foam inserts and shooter muffs) and shoot a few hundred rounds at 3-5 yards with a .22.

Bottom line...if she's your friend, show her the videos above, and take her out to shoot. If you have a .22, start with that for a few hundred rounds. Make it easy to hit the target...

I suspect she wouldn't have asked if she didn't trust you...

Her revolver excuse was her father had a Smith and Wesson that looked very similar to that one and she wanted it for nostalgia.The cabelas counter guy did have some influence on that one when he talked her into a credit card, $700 overpriced gun, ccw purse and told her she could carry without a permit.

I am one of the guys who think woman need a revolver because I'm not one for a semi auto in a purse be in a pocket holster or not. Someone woman have everything but the kitchen sink in those purses and now days some of these automatics coming without safeties and lighter trigger pulls I just feel its an accident waiting to happen. My J frame has like a 10lbs trigger and rounded edges for smooth glide out of a pocket or purse. It depends on a lot of factors if they carry a revolver or auto. That small sig would be awesome for a purse gun but some of the shields and glocks are a hair too big and blocky for my opinion in a purse full of stuff.
 
Her revolver excuse was her father had a Smith and Wesson that looked very similar to that one and she wanted it for nostalgia.The cabelas counter guy did have some influence on that one when he talked her into a credit card, $700 overpriced gun, ccw purse and told her she could carry without a permit.

I am one of the guys who think woman need a revolver because I'm not one for a semi auto in a purse be in a pocket holster or not. Someone woman have everything but the kitchen sink in those purses and now days some of these automatics coming without safeties and lighter trigger pulls I just feel its an accident waiting to happen. My J frame has like a 10lbs trigger and rounded edges for smooth glide out of a pocket or purse. It depends on a lot of factors if they carry a revolver or auto. That small sig would be awesome for a purse gun but some of the shields and glocks are a hair too big and blocky for my opinion in a purse full of stuff.

Well, I just read through all your posts and I think you did a dang good thing for her taking her out.

If she likes your M&P, show her the new compact version and maybe point out a good place to buy one. You are doing a great service to our community by her, Sir...thank you!
 
I grew up hunting with a bad flinch and that’s what helped me.

Maybe find an IDPA/USPSA club near you guys and have a quantitative measure to how you are shooting and improvements in speed and accuracy?

Not a lot of better ways to see what works or not than putting it on a clock with score.
 
To all the folks who are recommending she seek "professional help", I'd like to know if you yourself sought professional help before you began shooting, or did you learn from a relative/friend/neighbor/on your own?
I didn't seek professional training when I first started shooting...that's why I recommend that others start out with professional instruction. It took a lot of time, money, and ammo to cure bad habits I picked up...and likely could have avoided if I'd been instructed in the optimal technique to begin with.

Being told, or even shown, how a technique should be performed isn't the same as having it correctly taught...instructing isn't the same as teaching
 
I didn't seek professional training when I first started shooting...that's why I recommend that others start out with professional instruction. It took a lot of time, money, and ammo to cure bad habits I picked up...and likely could have avoided if I'd been instructed in the optimal technique to begin with.

Being told, or even shown, how a technique should be performed isn't the same as having it correctly taught...instructing isn't the same as teaching

I agree that new shooters are best served by having a competent mentor to guide them through the steps, and also agree bad instruction is worse than no instruction. I didn’t get the impression the OP was clueless about shooting...

I started out by taking an NRA Basic Handgun class. 9mmepiphany has nicely described the benefits of getting some good instruction at the beginning.

No doubt that beginning with a good instructor is a benefit. But do you really believe everyone needs to schedule a class or hire a “pro” before their first range visit? Kinda throws the whole “take a kid to the range and introduce them to shooting sports/hunting” idea out the window...
 
I am one of the guys who think woman need a revolver because I'm not one for a semi auto in a purse be in a pocket holster or not. Someone woman have everything but the kitchen sink in those purses and now days some of these automatics coming without safeties and lighter trigger pulls I just feel its an accident waiting to happen. My J frame has like a 10lbs trigger and rounded edges for smooth glide out of a pocket or purse. It depends on a lot of factors if they carry a revolver or auto. That small sig would be awesome for a purse gun but some of the shields and glocks are a hair too big and blocky for my opinion in a purse full of stuff.

For folks who recommend small revolvers as purse guns due to trigger pull, a semiauto option with a long heavy double action trigger pull is a Sig P290. Many folks dislike them because they are hammer fired, heavy for size, and have the long trigger...much like small revolvers. But I like mine and it’s accurate with very manageable recoil.

https://www.cabelas.com/product/SIG-Sauer-P-Pistol/1234237.uts

Unfortunately, I don’t know if Sig still makes them, but Cabelas has them in stock at the time of this post...
 
For folks who recommend small revolvers as purse guns due to trigger pull, a semiauto option with a long heavy double action trigger pull is a Sig P290. Many folks dislike them because they are hammer fired, heavy for size, and have the long trigger...much like small revolvers. But I like mine and it’s accurate with very manageable recoil.

https://www.cabelas.com/product/SIG-Sauer-P-Pistol/1234237.uts

Unfortunately, I don’t know if Sig still makes them, but Cabelas has them in stock at the time of this post...
She wants an auto next but she got a little squirrely with my 9mm. I told her get the fundamentals down and then lets go look at some.
 
Can you define "squirrely?"

When folks ask me about a getting into shooting and they want something smaller, I'll often recommend a Kahr K/P/CW9 over a S&W J-frame. I'd also recommend a Ruger LCR over a S&W J-frame if they really want a revolver...easier to learn to shoot with it's better trigger
 
Can you define "squirrely?"

When folks ask me about a getting into shooting and they want something smaller, I'll often recommend a Kahr K/P/CW9 over a S&W J-frame. I'd also recommend a Ruger LCR over a S&W J-frame if they really want a revolver...easier to learn to shoot with it's better trigger
Like a 2o firing an M16 in full auto. :) Once she called it down and was able to get her tiny hands around the big grip she did much better. The shoot n c target in my other post was partially 9mm once she got calmed down. A few rounds in the beginning never touched the target.
 
She wants an auto next but she got a little squirrely with my 9mm. I told her get the fundamentals down and then lets go look at some.


I too wonder what "squirrely" means. Does it mean she just went off on the trigger and emptied the mag at nuttin'? Did her instructor not tell her to shoot it slowly one round at a time till she got used to it? Most times when I introduce someone new to autoloaders, I only load one or two rounds at first. This keeps them from excessive squirreliness.

I think she has already picked an excellent EDC. While the Ruger's LCR trigger may be better out of the box than a Smith J-Frame alloy gun, it ain't much better if at all, FME, than a model 60....and the model 60 will get better with use and/or an action job. Recoil is much better managed with the heavier model 60 too. Most woman purse carry as opposed to holster carry in a daily scenario. A few more ounces really don't matter. As for the want of another gun, good for her. I suggest a full size 1911. Most women I teach to shoot, prefer them over everything else. While taking her to a gun store may be fun and you may be able to keep her from getting hosed, don't be picking out her gun for her. Tends to be what most men want to do, most of the time. Her monies, her gun, her choice. She needs to get what fits her and what she wants, not you. Hard as it is to keep your mouth shut or to keep from drooling over a gun you want, this is about her.
 
I too wonder what "squirrely" means. Does it mean she just went off on the trigger and emptied the mag at nuttin'? Did her instructor not tell her to shoot it slowly one round at a time till she got used to it? Most times when I introduce someone new to autoloaders, I only load one or two rounds at first. This keeps them from excessive squirreliness.

I think she has already picked an excellent EDC. While the Ruger's LCR trigger may be better out of the box than a Smith J-Frame alloy gun, it ain't much better if at all, FME, than a model 60....and the model 60 will get better with use and/or an action job. Recoil is much better managed with the heavier model 60 too. Most woman purse carry as opposed to holster carry in a daily scenario. A few more ounces really don't matter. As for the want of another gun, good for her. I suggest a full size 1911. Most women I teach to shoot, prefer them over everything else. While taking her to a gun store may be fun and you may be able to keep her from getting hosed, don't be picking out her gun for her. Tends to be what most men want to do, most of the time. Her monies, her gun, her choice. She needs to get what fits her and what she wants, not you. Hard as it is to keep your mouth shut or to keep from drooling over a gun you want, this is about her.
10 rounds in the mag but she said it was rather large for her hands. I have the large grips on the gun as i think someone stole my other grips last range outing. She stands about 5ft5 so her hands are tiny and a good grip wasn't able to be gotten. No i didn't encourage rapid fire. I noticed she had a lot of muzzle flip so im assuming she couldn't get a good grip.

She likes the model 60 and it seems to fit her pretty well. She inquired about a polymer framed revolver with crimson trace for ccw. I told her I would get ahold of a bunch of ccw guns and let her try them before we pick something out based on handling at a store. She has also shown interest in the Ruger LCP I think it was. The only time I would tell her no is if its a Taurus, Hipoint, etc. Only reason I don't like the model 60 for a purse gun is too many things sticking up to get caught on things such as the hammer and rear sights. It is a shooter and does look pretty but sweaty hands on those slick wood grips and trying to get it out under stress I see the hammer grabbing something and inhibiting that. I also wouldn't like the idea of her walking around with something cocked and locked in a purse for fear the safety comes off while moving around in the purse. She said it will probably be next year before she gets something else so we will see what she comes back with when she goes and looks.
 
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10 rounds in the mag but she said it was rather large for her hands. I have the large grips on the gun as i think someone stole my other grips last range outing. She stands about 5ft5 so her hands are tiny and a good grip wasn't able to be gotten. No i didn't encourage rapid fire. I noticed she had a lot of muzzle flip so im assuming she couldn't get a good grip.
This is concerning to me and why I think that she would benefit from the professional instruction.

You shouldn't be assuming she couldn't get a good grip.

You should be able to evaluate her grip prior to, and while, she is shooting and tell if she has a good grip.
You should be able to properly adjust her grip if you see it is wrong prior to her pulling the trigger. Grip is important.

Lots of good info out there on what the proper grip looks like.

A lot of people equate small hands = must have small grip. That isn't so. I have first time lady shooters knocking centers out of targets a 7 yrds with Glock 17's and 34's on a regular basis (edit: obviously not every lady, but you get the idea).

I have lady sized hands myself (I am 5' 8" and 130#) and if I have to choose between a bigger grip and a small one, I will take the bigger one.
More real estate to hand on to is almost always better than not enough. It's what makes small guns hard to shoot.

ETA:
I don't want to come off as an over critical ******.
I think that what you are doing (have done) is really good. And I appreciate people like you taking folks to the range and helping them out.

We absolutely need more people like you in our industry/sport.
 
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This is concerning to me and why I think that she would benefit from the professional instruction.

You shouldn't be assuming she couldn't get a good grip.

You should be able to evaluate her grip while she is shooting and tell if she has a good grip.
You should be able to properly adjust her grip if you see it is wrong prior to her pulling the trigger. Grip is important.

Lots of good info out there on what the proper grip looks like.

A lot of people equate small hands = must have small grip. That isn't so. I have first time lady shooters knocking centers out of targets a 7 yrds with Glock 17's and 34's on a regular basis (edit: obviously not every lady, but you get the idea).

I have lady sized hands myself (I am 5' 8" and 130#) and if I have to choose between a bigger grip and a small one, I will take the bigger one.
More real estate to hand on to is almost always better than not enough. It's what makes small guns hard to shoot.

ETA:
I don't want to come off as an over critical ******.
I think that what you are doing (have done) is really good. And I appreciate people like you taking folks to the range and helping them out.

We absolutely need more people like you in our industry/sport.

No offense taken at all. :)


I wasn't standing there with her the whole time. I walked back to the 100yard line to turn the lights on and said shoot whatever you like on the table. She finished off the last little bit of factory 9mm I had and said she liked it but it was a little large. She had 10 rounds of 9mm and 10 rounds of 38 spl down range by the time i turned the lights on to warm up until i got back. I counted some of the holes and said wait a minute where did the rest of them go? I did fix her grip on the model 60 because she wasn't high on the backstrap. I then checked her with the 9mm once all the rounds were gone and she wasn't high on the backstrap. The m&p has a weird large backstrap where its almost like holding a golf ball IMO.
 
No offense taken at all. :)
Okay, good.
It's sometimes hard to communicate stuff in a straight forward manner, over the internet, without sounding like a know-it-all wiener. :)

I wasn't standing there with her the whole time. I walked back to the 100yard line to turn the lights on and said shoot whatever you like on the table. She finished off the last little bit of factory 9mm I had and said she liked it but it was a little large. She had 10 rounds of 9mm and 10 rounds of 38 spl down range by the time i turned the lights on to warm up until i got back. I counted some of the holes and said wait a minute where did the rest of them go? I did fix her grip on the model 60 because she wasn't high on the backstrap. I then checked her with the 9mm once all the rounds were gone and she wasn't high on the backstrap. The m&p has a weird large backstrap where its almost like holding a golf ball IMO.
I also want to commend you for not hovering all the time.
Over coaching can be a detriment sometimes.

I ran a CCW qualification for a couple last night and had to pull the husband aside and (after I got her the right grip and coached her a little on trigger press) get him to just let her shoot.

She did fine after that and may have even shot better than he did :D
 
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