Double action revolvers and exposed trigger guards.

[.455_Hunter]

View attachment 928542
I like them too for nostalgic reasons but I agree they are pretty hard to find. This one does not get carried much as you can tell by the condition.

ETA: You don't speed draw from this holster...

I have never been really dissatisfied with full-flap speed of draw, and have done so quite a few times with urgency. Nice MkIV- Is that one of the last production run?

 

[mcb]

I have never been really dissatisfied with full-flap speed of draw, and have done so quite a few times with urgency. Nice MkIV- Is that one of the last production run?

Yes its one of that special run of 250 Mk IV's they did in the 1980's as they were stopping production.

The flap holster was not as slow as I thought it would be but I still don't think it would work real well at an IDPA match.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Yes its one of that special run of 250 Mk IV's they did in the 1980's as they were stopping production.

The flap holster was not as slow as I thought it would be but I still don't think it would work real well at an IDPA match.

Very nice Webley! My MK IV is just a basic '44 production "War Finish".

For me, the utility of the full flap holster with real carry in real outdoor environments is orders of magnitude above applicability in a gun game event or speed draw competition.

 

[WrongHanded]

Does anyone still teach hip shooting? From my Safariland 567 I can manage a 1-second draw to a alpha/down-0 at reasonable distances (7-10 yards). At least with the way I shoot, ie no hip shooting, I can't see how the lack of a trigger cover would speed me up any.

I'm not sure what "alpha/down-0" means, and it might be relevant here, particularly if it's a measure of accuracy.

Having said that, Keith said in his six-guns book something about how anyone that trains should be able to draw and hit (can't recall distance) in 0.5s or less. Jordan was a fast hand, from what I've read. But again, he believed in the importance of spilt second shooting from the holster. The hip shooting is certainly only appropriate for closer ranges, and Jordan actually details appropriate reach and position of the revolver as the distances grow. He certainly believed in hip shooting for at least the first shot, and said a heavier (or longer) barrel was helpful for feeling where the gun was pointing. If you've read his book, I'm just repeating what you already know. If you haven't, it might be worth your time as a revolver fan.

That 1 second you have is certainly something I can't do, and really is pretty impressive. But it wouldn't have been considered fast for those guys.

At the end of the day, I guess you can either buy a holster like that and try it for yourself, or not. You might be surprised, or you might find it doesn't help you one bit.

 

[mcb]

Alpha/down-0 is reference to the best scoring area on the standard USPSA (alpha) or IDPA (down-0) silhouette target. The target are very similar in size, both man-size silhouettes but have their own unique scoring areas specific to each sport.


USPSA left and IDPA right.

With in those sports a 1-second draw is seen as pretty good. I certainly don't manage that fast all the time or if the first target is longer range or requires movement to get to but for a stand a shoot stage I have manage a few 1-second draws. The problem I see with faster draws that leave the gun at the hip is they may be faster but the motion of these super fast hip draws seems to leave the shooter in a poor position to followup or move out of that position quickly.

 

[WrongHanded]

The problem I see with faster draws that leave the gun at the hip is they may be faster but the motion of these super fast hip draws seems to leave the shooter in a poor position to followup or move out of that position quickly.

From the cowboy action fast draw hip shooting position, I certainly agree. Jordan did it differently. No body movement (unless a cover garment was worn). He used a circular motion to sort of scoop the gun up, and then "throw" it forward into line with the target. How far up he brought his arm, and how far out he "threw" the gun, was based on the distance. I think the concept was if they were really close, you didn't even need to see the gun in peripheral vision, but as the distances increased, it became more necessary. Until the target was so far away, the sights were required. He preferred a DA revolver precisely for follow-up shots.

Remember that this technique was built on two things. One-handed pistol shooting was the norm, and he preferred to stay still and hit his target, rather than move for cover. Though, he did work in the desert, so cover may not have been readily available.

Make no mistake, I'm not advocating hip shooting self defense use of a DA revolver. After trying it, and carrying in such a rig, I made the determination I was better off sucking it up and training with a Glock. I'm just saying that this type of shooting is where an exposed trigger guard really works well.

 

[stonebuster]

I've got a couple Bucheimer "Concealer" holsters for my Model 10s with exposed triggers. They're light, hold the gun high, tight, comfortable and concealable. Definitely not a fashion statement.

 

[mcb]

I've got a couple Bucheimer "Concealer" holsters for my Model 10s with exposed triggers. They're light, hold the gun high, tight, comfortable and concealable. Definitely not a fashion statement.View attachment 929351

I like how high relative to the belt that holster holds the gun but I would want to loose the thumb break and cover the and retain the gun by the trigger guard.

 

[CraigC]

You can't just enclose the triggerguard on that holster without also lowering it relative to the belt. Triggerguard really only works for retention when the holster is kydex. The cylinder is the place where most the retention happens. Which not only keeps the gun from falling out but the cylinder from rotating. This is why when I add a tension screw, it goes in front of the frame, in the pocket created by the 90° junction of barrel and frame. That holster you pictured would have better retention if it didn't have the cutout over the top strap. That is why when I make a holster for a revolver with a rail, where it has to be cutout over the topstrap, I don't just cover the triggerguard, I enclose it. That holster only covers it from the sides. You guys are only looking at it from one angle, exposing or covering the trigger. When you start cutting hides and making this stuff actually work, it changes your perspective.

 

[fastbolt]

Back in my LE days, during the last gasp of service revolvers (and revolvers remaining popular for off-duty), most common OWB options for leather exposed the trigger guards, like the scabbards and paddles. The IWB designs, like the Pistol Pocket, naturally covered most of the trigger guard due to the nature of putting the revolver down behind the belt.

The clam shell required it be uncovered (due to release button location). The advent of the breakfront holster often included either a fully or partially covered trigger guard (nature of the push forward draw). My issued Hoyt was of the "partially covered" type, as the revolver was pushed forward, covering the trigger guard while transition from the holster.

Today you can find traditional designs, which don't cover the revolver trigger guard, as well as newer designs (like the Galco belt slot/scabbards) which cover the trigger guard.

The days of DA/SA revolver and 1911 carriers not worrying about open trigger guard designs were intended for older generations of users. The days of more modern service pistols, especially those with trigger safeties being an integral (and easily deactivated) part of the trigger, have understandably given rise to concerns about preventing ND's due to anything touching the trigger of a holstered gun.

When I found myself having to move through heavy brush while wearing an exposed belt holstered duty weapon, whether it was a service revolver or a DA/SA pistol, I was more concerned about something disengaging the thumb snap and levering against the grip, lifting the weapon from the holster.

Nowadays, with the advent of plastic pistols with "integral trigger safeties", I'd also be concerned about anything being able to reach into the trigger guard and come in contact with the trigger, so I want them covered.

 

[Stophel]

If you don't put your finger on the trigger, it doesn't matter if it's covered or not.

 

[JohnKSa]

If you don't put your finger on the trigger, it doesn't matter if it's covered or not.

That would be true if the only thing that could possibly operate a trigger is a finger.

I would challenge anyone to actually pull the trigger on this revolver.

I seriously doubt it's possible with a properly fitted leather holster in good condition and with the proper gun in it. But if any of those things aren't true then all bets are off...

 

[jmorris]

Even with my competition revolvers, that have the lightest DA triggers out of all I own, their weight can be supported by the trigger without completing a pull.

In other words they could be removed from a holster by the trigger without firing.

That said none of my competition holsters have exposed triggers and my finger doesn’t go into the trigger guard until after the firearm has cleared the holster and is being aimed at a target.

 

[mcb]

Again my objects/apprehension is not really about a accidental discharge while in the holster but more of a snag/damage aspect. I suspect if you really snagged an exposed trigger in a holster with a retention strap you would damage some aspect of the lock works (pawl, star, or similar) before the gun went bang. The covered trigger guard reduces the snag potential, protects the revolver more completely and allows for good retention without the need for a strap or similar manual retention device.

 

[jmorris]

Outside of competitions, I have probably carried SA revolvers more than DA as far as number of hours go. Almost always with holsters that have the trigger exposed and a loop of leather over the hammer for retention. I have never noticed the exposed trigger guard being more prone to snagging than just the grip but I generally drop an arm down to shield it from abrasion if I am passing by stuff that could make contact with it.

 

[amd6547]

I had the pleasure of meeting Mr Jordan circa 1980 at Camp Perry. He was a big guy with big hands, when I shook his hand, I felt like a kid shaking hands with an adult, lol.

 

[mcb]

Outside of competitions, I have probably carried SA revolvers more than DA as far as number of hours go. Almost always with holsters that have the trigger exposed and a loop of leather over the hammer for retention. I have never noticed the exposed trigger guard being more prone to snagging than just the grip but I generally drop an arm down to shield it from abrasion if I am passing by stuff that could make contact with it.

The Model 10 and Safariland 567 Holster pictured back in post #18 is what I carry pretty much anytime I am in the wood unless I am hunting. All my revolver holsters, competition, open carry, or concealed carry, double action and my my one single-action all covers the trigger guard. I was simply surprise by the number that still use holsters with uncovered trigger guards.

 

[jmorris]

I guess mine are old holsters, I have had for decades. I can’t recall any I have bought in the last 20 years that don’t have a covered trigger guard. Some, like the Ghost don’t cover anything except the trigger.

 

[mcb]

I guess mine are old holsters, I have had for decades. I can’t recall any I have bought in the last 20 years that don’t have a covered trigger guard. Some, like the Ghost don’t cover anything except the trigger.

I did not start my revolver obsession until 2007. I ran a Safariland 002 Challenge Cup holster for the first several years of shooting Revolver in USPSA when I was shooting a 6.5-inch 610.


old pic

When I switched to a 5-inch 625 in 2012 I almost bought a Double Alpha "ghost" style holster but then the rumors of the rule change hit in early 2013 and I bought a 627 and wanted a Production legal holster so I could shoot my 627 in Production and my 625 in Revolver for most of 2013 before the new rules went into effect in early 2014. So I bought and have stuck with an old Blad-tech plastic holster.

Major

Minor

I shoot IDPA with the Model-10 and 567 pictures ealier and that is also my woods/tractor setup. I have a 567 for my 5-inch N-frames also but don't carry them much like that. My M29 goes in a chest rig most of the time.

 

[mjsdwash]

I really think most of this irrational fear stems from Glocks discharging when inserted into a floppy holster that catches the trigger. Totally different scenario. There are no exposed parts that have to move to fire a Glock, which brings me back to my last point. I would challenge anyone to actually pull the trigger on this revolver.

I carried a GP for years, and it never occurred to me that that was a problem until I started reading about glocks, and specifically an incident at the Lynnwood, WA Lowes, if you want to look that up.
But what I really want to say, is that a GP in your pic? Where can I find those grips? CraigC?

 

[Stophel]

I have done a lot of studying, trying, figuring, and refiguring to find what type of holster works best for me. Personally, I like the old fashioned type where the triggerguard is covered, but there's an opening, or partial opening over the trigger. One would really have to be stretching the realms of imagination to figure out some scenario where the trigger is hung by something and made to go off. (I think it's a pretty irrational fear anyway).

I also MUST have a retention strap. It goes behind the hammer... no way something can snag the trigger and pull it ALL the way and make it go off if the hammer is physically held down. It's a plain snap strap, but it is positioned very carefully so that I can snap it off with my trigger finger. I'm actually very fast with it. And the trigger finger has to stay off the trigger to clear leather. I don't think there's much practical advantage to the trigger cutout, but there's no disadvantage in it either, and it just looks right.



I've made my 1911 holster very similarly, but the snap has to be right over the triggerguard opening, so by necessity, the triggerguard is covered.

 

[Riomouse911]

I had the pleasure of meeting Mr Jordan circa 1980 at Camp Perry. He was a big guy with big hands, when I shook his hand, I felt like a kid shaking hands with an adult, lol.

Mr. Jordan was 6' 5" I believe, and lanky as a whip. I never met him, but I've read No Second Place Winner and a bunch of his older articles that were simple, to the point and easy to understand.

Indeed, when shooting standing still he was operating out in territory where about the only cover you'll have was your vehicle or a mesquite bush, or maybe some rocks if you were in the hills. There were not a lot of places to move to in a gunfight, so it really was be the first on target or be the first man down.

A genuine legend, he relied on tremendous reflexes and gobs and gobs of repetitive practice to be as fast, smooth and accurate as he was.

Stay safe.

 

[CraigC]

Again my objects/apprehension is not really about a accidental discharge while in the holster but more of a snag/damage aspect. I suspect if you really snagged an exposed trigger in a holster with a retention strap you would damage some aspect of the lock works (pawl, star, or similar) before the gun went bang. The covered trigger guard reduces the snag potential, protects the revolver more completely and allows for good retention without the need for a strap or similar manual retention device.

Snagging on what??? Do you cut the belt loops off your pants because they might snag on something?

 

[Charlie Martinez]

I used to love reading Bill Jordan articles in gun magazines back in the 70's. I miss those gun magazine stories written by writers that lived during the days when real gun action was a routine. Guys like Jordan, Skelton, Askins, Cooper & Keith (and others) had some really great first hand experience stories to share.

Like most of those tough old timers, Jordan definitely does not look like a guy any sane criminal would want to mess with.

 

[Texas10mm]

Alpha/down-0 is reference to the best scoring area on the standard USPSA (alpha) or IDPA (down-0) silhouette target. The target are very similar in size, both man-size silhouettes but have their own unique scoring areas specific to each sport.
View attachment 928549 View attachment 928550

USPSA left and IDPA right.

With in those sports a 1-second draw is seen as pretty good. I certainly don't manage that fast all the time or if the first target is longer range or requires movement to get to but for a stand a shoot stage I have manage a few 1-second draws. The problem I see with faster draws that leave the gun at the hip is they may be faster but the motion of these super fast hip draws seems to leave the shooter in a poor position to followup or move out of that position quickly.

I train for hip shots at close range with my 1911. I can draw and put two shots in the 0 down in right at 1.25 seconds.