azhunter122
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What is best in SD situations, what should I train on? I am already accurate with both.
Double Tap Vrs. Rapid Fire
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kcshooter
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Train to shoot until the threat is stopped.
SamG.
Member
I agree
I would train in double tap. Rapid fire only increases the chances of non-hits.
Train with good center mass double taps.
Practice firing shot strings, ie, 3 to 5 or more.
2 shots fired is great for gun games and generic range practice, but it has been my experience throughout the years in places such as Panama, Afghanistan, and Iraq, that in a fight shooters will fire shot strings as opposed to the "double tap" or "controlled pair" that we practice at the range.
Fire until the threat goes down, and it usually takes more than 2 shots....
Practice shot strings.
2 shots fired is great for gun games and generic range practice, but it has been my experience throughout the years in places such as Panama, Afghanistan, and Iraq, that in a fight shooters will fire shot strings as opposed to the "double tap" or "controlled pair" that we practice at the range.
Fire until the threat goes down, and it usually takes more than 2 shots....
Practice shot strings.
elChupacabra!
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I practice both. I spend time practicing drawing and firing 2, 3, and 6 rapid, accurate shots, depending on range. I try to be effective with anything from drawing from presentation and executing Mozambique drills at 7m to drawing from presentation and executing headshots at 15m.
I've recently started doing Bill Drills - 6 rounds can go pretty quick once you you practice it a few times.
The point to me is to be proficient with any sort of defensive shooting at any range that I might be required to shoot. Although I do practice pairs from time to time, in reality, I'm ready to continue firing at a threat until they are on the deck, and expect that's what I would do in a life-or-death situation.
I've recently started doing Bill Drills - 6 rounds can go pretty quick once you you practice it a few times.
The point to me is to be proficient with any sort of defensive shooting at any range that I might be required to shoot. Although I do practice pairs from time to time, in reality, I'm ready to continue firing at a threat until they are on the deck, and expect that's what I would do in a life-or-death situation.
Don't practice any preset number of shots over and over again. Always mix it up. Nobody knows how many shots it will take ahead of time. Could be 1, 5, 2, the whole magazine plus a reload, or none. You don't want to get into a habit of shooting a preset number then pausing...that pause may cost you your life.
The number of shots and if/when you pause and asses should be situation/threat dictated.
The number of shots and if/when you pause and asses should be situation/threat dictated.
Engagement Techniques
First off, we need to define double tap. A double tap means two shots, but how are they fired. Most schools use controlled pairs, two shots with a separate sight picture for each shot and hammers, which is two shots with one sight picture. Usually distance to the target decides which technique to use. Hammers are less accurate then controlled pairs.
Then there is the failure drill or as some refer to it, the Mozambique. This is two rapid shots to the body and one to the head.
Another engagement technique is a drill that different instructors call different things. Five shot failure drill, extended failure drill and non-standard response. They all basically define the same thing, a rapid fire burst of 5-7 rounds fired into the same part of the target as fast as you can press the trigger.
The question is, how do you know which engagement technique to use and when?
There isn't really any hard and fast rule. It used to be common to train to fire a hammer or controlled pair, then assess. This kind of training led to people thinking the fight was over after two rounds and go into range mode (remember you'll fight the way you train) and maybe even holster so you can fire the next exercise. Definitely not how what you want to do in a fight.
It's best to shoot until the bad guy stops whatever hostile action he was doing. The only exception to this would be when dealing with multiple assailants, where it may be better to service each target and then make another pass to make certain they have stopped the hostile action.
Like stramo says, mix up your training. It's better to have someone call the drills out to you when you train, that way you don't know what you're going to shoot till it's time to shoot.
Always make sure that you look for other hostiles before going admin. Take your time and actually look. I see a lot of people on the range turn their head left and right, but they aren't looking, they are practicing looking but they aren't seeing. If you train that way on the range, you'll fight that way. I've found that a popup target that suddenly appears while a student is looking for other targets to shoot is a good way to test this.
Once you are sure the fight is over, then tac load your weapon before you put it up. It's a good habit to get into. Another hostile may appear and you don't want to go into a fight with an unloaded weapon.
Jeff
First off, we need to define double tap. A double tap means two shots, but how are they fired. Most schools use controlled pairs, two shots with a separate sight picture for each shot and hammers, which is two shots with one sight picture. Usually distance to the target decides which technique to use. Hammers are less accurate then controlled pairs.
Then there is the failure drill or as some refer to it, the Mozambique. This is two rapid shots to the body and one to the head.
Another engagement technique is a drill that different instructors call different things. Five shot failure drill, extended failure drill and non-standard response. They all basically define the same thing, a rapid fire burst of 5-7 rounds fired into the same part of the target as fast as you can press the trigger.
The question is, how do you know which engagement technique to use and when?
There isn't really any hard and fast rule. It used to be common to train to fire a hammer or controlled pair, then assess. This kind of training led to people thinking the fight was over after two rounds and go into range mode (remember you'll fight the way you train) and maybe even holster so you can fire the next exercise. Definitely not how what you want to do in a fight.
It's best to shoot until the bad guy stops whatever hostile action he was doing. The only exception to this would be when dealing with multiple assailants, where it may be better to service each target and then make another pass to make certain they have stopped the hostile action.
Like stramo says, mix up your training. It's better to have someone call the drills out to you when you train, that way you don't know what you're going to shoot till it's time to shoot.
Always make sure that you look for other hostiles before going admin. Take your time and actually look. I see a lot of people on the range turn their head left and right, but they aren't looking, they are practicing looking but they aren't seeing. If you train that way on the range, you'll fight that way. I've found that a popup target that suddenly appears while a student is looking for other targets to shoot is a good way to test this.
Once you are sure the fight is over, then tac load your weapon before you put it up. It's a good habit to get into. Another hostile may appear and you don't want to go into a fight with an unloaded weapon.
Jeff
Hoplophile
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I'm always for the mag-dump option. Check your target, check what's behind and around your target, and pull till you hear clicking. You may also want to try screaming in a blind panic whist soiling yourself. Highly effective.
sacp81170a
Member
One thing that can really help is reactive targets. I made up some cheap ones with balloons and cardboard(the balloons can be blown up to different sizes to vary the "vital" zone) and hung and old T-shirt over them. It was really interesting to see folks shooting them the first time around. You have to shoot the target until it drops, which may be on the first shot or at the end of the second magazine, depending on how big you make that balloon...
The first time some folks shot the targets and they didn't drop, you could see the confusion and hesitation. After the first couple of go arounds, they were enthusiastically shooting until the target was down.
Range mode includes more than just how many rounds you train to shoot at one time. It can include your reaction to visual cues like nice round holes in a flat cardboard surface. Hanging a T-shirt on your targets so you can't see where exactly you've hit is a cheap way to enhance your training. Hanging the target from a balloon tied to a string is even better. (Put the balloon on the back side of the target so you can't tell where it is.)
Real bad guys don't have A, B, and C zones clearly marked on them.
The first time some folks shot the targets and they didn't drop, you could see the confusion and hesitation. After the first couple of go arounds, they were enthusiastically shooting until the target was down.
Range mode includes more than just how many rounds you train to shoot at one time. It can include your reaction to visual cues like nice round holes in a flat cardboard surface. Hanging a T-shirt on your targets so you can't see where exactly you've hit is a cheap way to enhance your training. Hanging the target from a balloon tied to a string is even better. (Put the balloon on the back side of the target so you can't tell where it is.)
Real bad guys don't have A, B, and C zones clearly marked on them.
Two shots?
The only time that double taps (Shoot twice?) is called for, no question, is multiple targets. Shooting one after the other of three attackers while not common has happened.
The difference in time is just over half a second on average. Between 6 shots or three, first you aim at all three targets once only, so triggering a second shot at that time increases accuracy, and doubles the hits, the largest time taken is moving pistol from holster to target, then target to target. And you will soon see a tendency to swing past on the single rounds.
If not missing, edge hits.
Try it on the range, three targets on the left three on the right, each array the same, for instance, middle T1 10ft in front of you, left T2 15ft away, then over on the right at 25ft away set T3. The side targets ten feet or so from the center line.
Left array would be your single shots, on your timers beep, draw and fire, center, left and right. Then right array, same sequence but two rounds on each. Try for speed, push your self a bit, when swinging left or right in a hurry, you tend to over swing on single shots, much better hits on the six shot sequence, try it.
Assess at the end of a few strings, easy enough to see the trends.
The only time that double taps (Shoot twice?) is called for, no question, is multiple targets. Shooting one after the other of three attackers while not common has happened.
The difference in time is just over half a second on average. Between 6 shots or three, first you aim at all three targets once only, so triggering a second shot at that time increases accuracy, and doubles the hits, the largest time taken is moving pistol from holster to target, then target to target. And you will soon see a tendency to swing past on the single rounds.
If not missing, edge hits.
Try it on the range, three targets on the left three on the right, each array the same, for instance, middle T1 10ft in front of you, left T2 15ft away, then over on the right at 25ft away set T3. The side targets ten feet or so from the center line.
Left array would be your single shots, on your timers beep, draw and fire, center, left and right. Then right array, same sequence but two rounds on each. Try for speed, push your self a bit, when swinging left or right in a hurry, you tend to over swing on single shots, much better hits on the six shot sequence, try it.
Assess at the end of a few strings, easy enough to see the trends.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
Well, it depends.
Number One, it depends on what you are carrying. I carry a J-frame and a speedloader. So for me it's 'tea party rules'- everyone gets one until all are served, then we worry about seconds. With a double stack duty size 9mm, more liberality in dispensing projectiles is possible. It might not be warranted, of course, or even very wise, but it is possible.
Number Two depends on your training. (Why does LPL always harp on training, you ask? Because you are very likely to do what you have been TRAINED to do, that's why.) And if you plan on spraying submachinegun-like bursts of pistol fire in a crisis, you had best hie yourself off and take a class or three that will teach you how, as well as help you explore your own personal limitations in that regard. It might make you actually think about what you plan to do on the street- always a good thing.
lpl
Number One, it depends on what you are carrying. I carry a J-frame and a speedloader. So for me it's 'tea party rules'- everyone gets one until all are served, then we worry about seconds. With a double stack duty size 9mm, more liberality in dispensing projectiles is possible. It might not be warranted, of course, or even very wise, but it is possible.
Number Two depends on your training. (Why does LPL always harp on training, you ask? Because you are very likely to do what you have been TRAINED to do, that's why.) And if you plan on spraying submachinegun-like bursts of pistol fire in a crisis, you had best hie yourself off and take a class or three that will teach you how, as well as help you explore your own personal limitations in that regard. It might make you actually think about what you plan to do on the street- always a good thing.
lpl
Old Grump
Member
Only time I ever double tap is on target if that was what was wanted by whoever was running the line. Speed games where accuracy on reactive targets at odd ball ranges is needed is better practice for me. The old move the tin can across the range to a set line in competition with another shooter or clearing a table full of bowling pins is better practice. Just 2 cents from an old dinosaur. In real life you aren't going to shoot twice and stop to gauge the effectiveness of your shots. I would rather see you practice slow enough to be accurate, the speed comes with repetition, lots of repetition.
easyrider604
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With only 6 shots in my revolver, I will not double-tap. This is how I practice:
All targets are standard 25-yd pistol targets.
1 target 7 meters, 1 target 4 meters, 1 target 2 meters, set as close to each other when viewed from shooting bay. Just for fun, I vary the target heights. Sometimes I vary the space between targets (when viewed from front). The goal is to score hits in the black. All shots fired as quick as sight picture is acquired.
I practice this drill twice, for a total of six shots only. Some days, I do only one drill (three shots). Some days, I fire only one or two shots. This is the first string I fire every time I visit the range, and what I consider the only serious practice of the day. The rest is just plinking.
1. 7 meters - 1 shot.
2. 4 meters - 1 shot.
3. 2 meters - 1 shot.
All targets are standard 25-yd pistol targets.
1 target 7 meters, 1 target 4 meters, 1 target 2 meters, set as close to each other when viewed from shooting bay. Just for fun, I vary the target heights. Sometimes I vary the space between targets (when viewed from front). The goal is to score hits in the black. All shots fired as quick as sight picture is acquired.
I practice this drill twice, for a total of six shots only. Some days, I do only one drill (three shots). Some days, I fire only one or two shots. This is the first string I fire every time I visit the range, and what I consider the only serious practice of the day. The rest is just plinking.
1. 7 meters - 1 shot.
2. 4 meters - 1 shot.
3. 2 meters - 1 shot.
rainbowbob
Member
I had never heard it put this way before. As a J-framer - I love this description.
5 Shots?
"More is better, always"
I coined that phrase in the early 80s, simply put, you have no concept of what kind of emergency you might be dragged into, none what so ever!
Five rounds in a wee revolver with crappy sights, does not cut it.
That's the reason you fill your vehicle up with gas, make sure you have a spare, carry vehicle insurance, have a big brolly (sorry umbrella) going out for supper round here. It's called being ready for unseen circumstances, the Cop in the Mall? bet he Carry's his duty gun now + a spare mag.
I am not the guru on carry, but a Glock 19 and a spare G17 mag = comfort!
"More is better, always"
"More is better, always"
I coined that phrase in the early 80s, simply put, you have no concept of what kind of emergency you might be dragged into, none what so ever!
Five rounds in a wee revolver with crappy sights, does not cut it.
That's the reason you fill your vehicle up with gas, make sure you have a spare, carry vehicle insurance, have a big brolly (sorry umbrella) going out for supper round here. It's called being ready for unseen circumstances, the Cop in the Mall? bet he Carry's his duty gun now + a spare mag.
I am not the guru on carry, but a Glock 19 and a spare G17 mag = comfort!
"More is better, always"
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You use as many as necessary given the situation and the amount of targets. Aimed shots or controlled pairs followed with failure drill, repeat as necessary. Be mindful of backstop and nearby 'friendlies'.
I have never seen anyone preach rapidfire as a viable technique for self defense.
I have never seen anyone preach rapidfire as a viable technique for self defense.
David904
Member
I was trained to employ the zipper drill.
Use your sights and let sight acquisition dictate the tempo of your follow-up shots until the bad-guy is no longer threatening your life.
Use your sights and let sight acquisition dictate the tempo of your follow-up shots until the bad-guy is no longer threatening your life.
B yond, Step 3 can get you killed. It got Mark Wilson killed at the Tyler Texas Courthouse shooting. He was too good a shot, so after nailing the BG squarely COM, he stopped to assess the target. This gave the BG enough time to shoot Wilson 4 times and kill him.
Newer SD training teaches you to keep shooting until the target/BG is no longer in your sites and down for the count.
Re-assessing the situation could just mean noting that the attacker is not on the ground yet, between shots 2 and 3-4-5-6-7-8-9-etc.
The point I was trying to make was that it's not necessary or wise to shoot to slide lock. Shoot until the threat is no longer a threat. Personally, I train to double tap, re-assess, and continue firing.
When I say re-assess the situation I'm not talking about lowering the weapon, taking eyes off the threat, or doing anything stupid. The weapon should stay on target with the finger on the trigger ready to fire again if necessary for the fraction of a second it takes to make sure the threat is down.
sacp81170a
Member
Without splitting hairs, you're missing a couple of steps that are all too often skipped in SD training. They get skipped because we don't often have access to ranges that allow us to teach them properly:
Step 1: MOVE!!! Get off the X!!
Step 2: Draw.
Step 3: Keep moving!!! Toward cover if it's available.
Step 3: Shoot! Keep shooting until the perp(s) is/are down or they give up the attack.
Step 4: Re-assess the situation from behind cover.
Mark Wilson probably left out steps 1, 3, and most certainly step 4. Unfortunately, the local indoor range takes a dim view of folks running back and forth, crossing lanes, and firing. This is one training gap where IDPA, IPSC and the other competitions of like nature can at least help you retain some muscle memory of what to do besides standing in one place while checking to see if you hit the target.
Keep shooting! Shoot until your freaking gun is empty, then reload and shoot some more! Shootshootshootshootshoot!
Oh brother. Expert advice from those who've "been there, done that", no doubt.
Okay. Now let's get a hard, cold dash of reality here.
Ever hear of Harold Fish? He didn't double tap anybody. He did, however, shoot somebody three times. Didn't empty his gun into the aggressor, merely shot him three measly times. Risky on his part, no doubt, to be so frugal with ammo.
Or then again, maybe his hand cannon 10mm Glock picked the guy up and tossed him backwards 10 feet so there was no need to continue firing. And those overkill hollowpoints might have helped too.
At any rate, the jury couldn't for the life of them understand why he needed hollowpoints and shooting somebody THREE (gasp!) times to defend himself.
Mr. Fish is currently serving 10 years as the guest of the state where he lives. And he only shot the guy three times!
Go figure......
http://www.paysonroundup.com/section/frontpage_lead/story/24567
Oh brother. Expert advice from those who've "been there, done that", no doubt.
Okay. Now let's get a hard, cold dash of reality here.
Ever hear of Harold Fish? He didn't double tap anybody. He did, however, shoot somebody three times. Didn't empty his gun into the aggressor, merely shot him three measly times. Risky on his part, no doubt, to be so frugal with ammo.
Or then again, maybe his hand cannon 10mm Glock picked the guy up and tossed him backwards 10 feet so there was no need to continue firing. And those overkill hollowpoints might have helped too.
At any rate, the jury couldn't for the life of them understand why he needed hollowpoints and shooting somebody THREE (gasp!) times to defend himself.
Mr. Fish is currently serving 10 years as the guest of the state where he lives. And he only shot the guy three times!
Go figure......
http://www.paysonroundup.com/section/frontpage_lead/story/24567
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RobMoore
Member
How is a man who would still be in jail even if he only fired one shot relevant to this debate?
AFAIK - "double tap" (one sight picture, two presses)
"rapid fire" (watching the front sight do its dance as you zip through a whole mag as quick as you can, trying to keep it centered)
Actually reacting to the sights realigning and beginning a press is just aimed shooting, even if its done really fast.
AFAIK - "double tap" (one sight picture, two presses)
"rapid fire" (watching the front sight do its dance as you zip through a whole mag as quick as you can, trying to keep it centered)
Actually reacting to the sights realigning and beginning a press is just aimed shooting, even if its done really fast.
First off, you don't know that.
I watched (on TV) some of the jury being questioned after the trial. A common thread was "Why did he have to shoot him three times?" and "Why did he have to use those deadly hollow point bullets?".
The jury's problem with how many times the aggressor was shot is what makes it relevant to this debate. Which is why my posting centered on the shootshootshootdon'tstopshooting mentality noted here.
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