Dragoon vs Walker for Close Range Deer Hunt?

[CraigC]

CraigC it really depends on the 44 Special. Since mine is a 1985 limited run Smith in stainless I could have used the Kieth Load of 12 grains of Unique but frame streatchin would occur as would gas cutting so I settled on using 9 grains which is what another loader I know uses for the same gun and has for twenty years. I was using 22 grains of 296 with a 200 grain bullet which worked fine for virgin cases but once fired started sticking.

Whoah there!!!!!!! For the record, I'm not one of those nanny safety police types who thinks published maximum pressures should never be exceeded. Keith never recommended 12gr Unique in the .44Spl. The 7.5gr Skeeter load is a little hotter than SAAMI would allow and is the most Unique you should use in ANY .44Spl sixgun with that bullet weight. Twelve grains is hot for the .44Mag! I would stop listening to whoever is recommending these loads in the .44Spl before you get hurt.

If you're going to play with heavy .44Spl loads, and I do, stick to what is proven. If you want to go heavy, Keith's 2400 load is maximum.

 

[Crawdad1]

I don't think I would hunt something as big as a deer with a black powder load, I would hunt deer with a conversion cylinder and either the 45 Long Colt or 45 Schofield. Even then I would respect the limitations of the round and my limitations.
But with the conversion cylinders these revolvers have a wide range in usefulness.

 

[CraigC]

I agree. Just the switch from a lightweight round ball to a 250gr cast bullet makes a big difference.

 

[ClemBert]

250 gr PRS 0.452 BigLube + 48gr Goex FFFg = 1,032 ft/s

or

200 gr J/P 0.452 BigLube + 52gr Goex FFFg = 1,161 ft/s

 

[rondog]

Oh my.....

 

[CraigC]

Sweet!

 

[ClemBert]

The biggest drawback of the Walker would be that @#$ loading lever coming loose. Yes there are semi-fixes for it, but I discovered if you're loading at max charge those fixes tend to un-fix themselves, so you still end up having to check the lever every time.

Just pick up a rubber o-ring from your local hardware store. Slides on and off easily, is reusable, and do NOT fall off during heavy recoil.

 

[rodwha]

There's a fellow who hunts with a Walker and uses heavy charges of 2F T7 with a ball for hunting hogs. He claims that for closer shots <25 yds the ball does more damage than the harder than pure lead Kaido FN bullets.

There are also several instances of RB's being found on the offside or passthroughs on deer with ROA's, 1858's, and 1860's. I don't know the powder charges or the ranges, but had been looking to see if these large caliber BP guns were capable of hunting with when the traditional guys said it was no better than a .38 Spl. Funny how the .45 Colt seemed to do so well back in the day.

I'd be willing to try a ball, but I'd feel better with a light bullet, which is what I've had Tom at Accurate Molds work on. It's not finished, but would weigh 180 grns if using WW's as is. I intend to make a few more adjustments which would likely bring it up to 200-210 grns or so. This bullet would only be .460" OAL and take up no more room than a RB would.

If a mere 25 grn charge of 3F T7 and a 255 grn bullet can generate 45 ACP+P ballistics and still have more room in the chamber for ~5 grns more there's no reason why this load wouldn't be sufficient to kill deer if you can put the bullet where it needs to be.

 

[hartcreek]

craig C

You picked a rather wimpy Skeeter load for the 44 Special have you not seen Charles A. Skelton's work from 1966?

From my Ideal Number 38 the Kieth Load shows 18.5 grains of 2400 using a 250 grain bullet.

 

[CraigC]

I don't know what you're talking about but the loads you posted would be dangerous in ANY .44Spl. Twelve grains of Unique is going to exceed .44Mag pressures. The famous Skeeter load is 7.5gr Unique for 950fps.

The 18.5gr 2400 load is for balloonhead brass. Solid head brass should be reduced to 16.5gr - 17.0gr.

 

[Crawdad1]

Day ain't toys no more!!!!

 

[Willie Sutton]

Clembert's project was the inspiration for mine. The difference is that I short chambered the Walker so it will never accept factory .460 S&W brass, just in case someone tries it after I'm dead and gone. I short chambered by about .100 and trim the brass accordingly. Full loads of holy black loaded in these cases = holy cow....


Willie

.

 

[ClemBert]

Clembert's project was the inspiration for mine. The difference is that I short chambered the Walker so it will never accept factory .460 S&W brass, just in case someone tries it after I'm dead and gone. I short chambered by about .100 and trim the brass accordingly. Full loads of holy black loaded in these cases = holy cow....

I came to the conclusion a long time ago that some folks will prove Darwin correct and there isn't anything we can (or want to) do about it. For example, there is nothing likely you can do to prevent someone from inserting .45 Colt +P (high pressure) loads in your converted Walker.

Not that it's a guarantee but from all the standard loaded .460 S&W loads I ran across it appears they all exceed the 2.14" C.O.L. by a pretty good bit meaning they would be too long to fit into a Walker converted for .45 BPM. Again, not a guarantee especially with custom loads but your conversion does take one extra step to throw off Darwinism.

We need to see pics and we need to see your chrony data!

 

[CraigC]

...there is nothing likely you can do to prevent someone from inserting .45 Colt +P (high pressure) loads in your converted Walker.

Or .454 for that matter.

 

[Willie Sutton]

"We need to see pics and we need to see your chrony data!"

Be June at the earliest, I'm stuck in the desert flying for a bit. Have a pair of 1860's and a Remmie here but the Walker is back in Wisconsin. There's no practical difference in the loading available with the (very slightly) shortened case so the chrony numbers ought to be about the same. You're right with the OAL on factory .460 but I just wanted it to be a real wildcat of sorts, I guess. The gated conversion is the next step. I just happened to have a non-gated cylinder handy and all I needed was a reamer.



"Or .454 for that matter. "

Speaking of which, the same process could be used to chamber a Dragoon conversion cylinder to exactly that for beastly black powder brass cartridge loads. Anyone?



Willie

.

 

[45 Dragoon]

Yap, thinking about the 454 chambering for my Dragoons and the Walker and shooting 45 Colt / Down loaded 454s. 45Colt brass is scarce and i have some 454 and can still get 454.

I agree with ClemBerts Darwin idea. It would be a just punishment should someone decide to take them from me and touch off a fact. round !!!

But, I don't shoot blk powder in them. Had all the blk powder fun I wanted 20 yrs. ago. Now, I just go have fun ( indoors), come home and wipe um down and put them up. Life is great !!!


45 Dragoon