Shultzhaus
Member
I like the 3rd model Dragoon. I like "movie" guns, and this one was in the original True Grit film (John Wayne) Sorry, I can't afford the Quigley rifle. Waiting for my lottery win. LOL
Walker vs Dragoon
- Thread starter tom e gun
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I like them both but have come to enjoy my Wlaker a bit more with the shorter barrel. For long range work, the Dragoon gets the nod.
Collectors refer to several "Models" of Dragoons but I believe Colts used one term, horse pistol, for botht the Walker and the Dragoons.
Collectors refer to several "Models" of Dragoons but I believe Colts used one term, horse pistol, for botht the Walker and the Dragoons.
madcratebuilder
Member
There you go, filling my drool bucket again! That stubby horse killer is hot.I like them both but have come to enjoy my Wlaker a bit more with the shorter barrel. For long range work, the Dragoon gets the nod.
Collectors refer to several "Models" of Dragoons but I believe Colts used one term, horse pistol, for botht the Walker and the Dragoons.
And the good news is, it can be yours!! All you need is a Walker and a hacksaw. A triangle file is helpful for fitting a new front sight also. Mine is a 5" variation but I have seen some shorter. The thing is, no matter how short you cut it, a Walker will never be confused with a concealed revolver or a fast draw piece.
For that, one of the lower two revolvers would suffice.
The maximum charge the Walker was designed to shoot was 60 grs, the Dragoons were supposed to be able to use 50. Same frame, but the cylinder is slightly shorter. If you look at pictures side by side, you can see more of the rear of the barrel protruding from a Dragoon. Someone posted that they could interchange Walker and Dragoon cylinders and barrels on their guns (had to be both parts together).
I'm a fan of the Dragoons, the Walkers just don't appeal to me as much. Not sure how much of the extra 10 grains of powder you can actually burn (velocity increase) in the Walker. Perhaps someone has chrono'ed them with various full loads? Both are pretty potent in full loads in any event. I'd like to shoot some game with my Dragoon, like a buffalo, and perhaps an elk, if I can get close enough.
makos_goods
Member
Hey StrawHat,
It's true that Dragoon is a collector's term, but the pistols had official names and names used within the company:
"U.S. Model 1847 Holster Pistol," what we now commonly call Walker models.
Also included with the "Walkers" are he Whitneyville 1847s with the short cylinder commonly called the "Whitneyville Dragoons" aka "Colt Whitneyville-Hartford Dragoons" aka "Transitional Walker."
"U.S. Model 1848 Holster Pistol," what we now call the Dragoons.
We differentiate the models of the 1848 as:
1st Model
2nd Model
3rd Model
Also included with the "Dragoons" are the "Fluck Dragoons" aka "Pre-Production First Model Dragoon" aka "Second Contract Dragoon Revolver."
The term "Horse Pistol" is just a colloquial name and they were actually called "Holster Pistols" by the Colt's Armory. They also had pocket pistols and in 1851 they came out with the second generation of "Belt Pistol" which is commonly called the Navy model because of the Naval engagement scene. The Paterson had both Pocket models and Belt Pistol models.
Latter the 1860 retained the naval battle scene, but since it was adopted by the U.S. Army in 1860 we commonly call it the "Army Model." The Army called it the "Colt's .44 caliber Model of 1860 pistol." Technically it would be a Belt Pistol as well.
So basically they had three model types of percussion revolving pistols from 1836 to 1873:
- Belt
- Holster
Mako
Berkley
Member
There has been some discussion about whether Colt ever used the term "dragoon". From looking at Colt advertisements over the years, it seems that the company used several different names to describe the large six-shot .44 caliber revolvers.
An early ad shows the cylinder engraving from "COLT'S Pocket Pistol" , "COLT'S Navy Pistol and " COLT'S U.S. Dragoons arms".
Later ads refer to "Colt's Patent Repeating Pistols, Army, Navy and Pocket sizes" .
An 1860 ad offers reduced prices for the 4lb 2oz "Holster Pistol. Army large size".
Sam Colt didn't care if you asked for a dragoon, army or holster pistol, as long as it was one of his.
An early ad shows the cylinder engraving from "COLT'S Pocket Pistol" , "COLT'S Navy Pistol and " COLT'S U.S. Dragoons arms".
Later ads refer to "Colt's Patent Repeating Pistols, Army, Navy and Pocket sizes" .
An 1860 ad offers reduced prices for the 4lb 2oz "Holster Pistol. Army large size".
Sam Colt didn't care if you asked for a dragoon, army or holster pistol, as long as it was one of his.
makos_goods
Member
Berkley,
Excellent examples, thank you. It's interesting that under the "Belt" or medium pistols it already lists an "Army" model which had just come out but it only specifically shows the 7 1/2" .36/100 caliber "Navy model" and only alludes to the new .44 caliber (1860) Army model by use of the name "Army." The Army caliber of .44/100 had already been established and further reinforced by the acceptance of the .44 caliber 1860 model.
Look at the nomencalture from the engraving scene advertisement:
"COLT'S Pocket Pistol" , "COLT'S Navy Pistol and " COLT'S U.S. Dragoons arms". Note the first two refer to pistols, the last refers to the arms used by the U.S. Dragoons. I don't think this refers to the pistol in the case of the Dragoon description, but rather it was the arm used by the U.S. Dragoons.
This discussion goes round and round with Colt's collectors. I know some members of the CCA (Colt Collectors Association) that just spit when they look at how the models are labeled in the publications and even the web site. Years ago the names Walker, Dragoon, Army Model and Navy Models got so entrenched it will never be changed. I don't think the members used to be the "purists" we have today. There were some great Colt's scholars in the '50s and '60s but they were perfectly happy to use the common names for the revolvers. They were more concerned with debates and dogmatic positions on things like the Fluck claims on the late serial number 1847 replacements to the Army that fall way after the Model 1848s had been in production.
I was just pointing out they actually had names the government bought them under and there were official names that Colt's used in dealing with the government on those pistols. I have even seen internal documents where Colt's called the 1851 the "Navy." and then in 1861 when they introduced the 1861 they called it the "Improved Navy Model with the new creeping loading lever." This was all because the term "Navy" had become synonymous with .36 caliber and as I pointed out earlier the .44 caliber was synonymous with .44 caliber. They touted the 1861 as being able to digest any paper cartridge because of the improved lever and opening. By the time the 1861 came out paper cartridges with conical bullets had become the load of choice and sometimes it is hard to get a cartridge into the loading channel and under the lever of the 1851. This channel changed in shape from 1851 to 1873 on the Model 1851.
And finally, you are entirely correct about Samuel Colt being willing to use anything to obtain a sale. If there was ever anyone who could have sold Ice to Eskimos, it was Sam Colt. He was a visionary, industrialist and great inventor, but the was ever the salesman.
Regards,
Mako
Excellent examples, thank you. It's interesting that under the "Belt" or medium pistols it already lists an "Army" model which had just come out but it only specifically shows the 7 1/2" .36/100 caliber "Navy model" and only alludes to the new .44 caliber (1860) Army model by use of the name "Army." The Army caliber of .44/100 had already been established and further reinforced by the acceptance of the .44 caliber 1860 model.
Look at the nomencalture from the engraving scene advertisement:
"COLT'S Pocket Pistol" , "COLT'S Navy Pistol and " COLT'S U.S. Dragoons arms". Note the first two refer to pistols, the last refers to the arms used by the U.S. Dragoons. I don't think this refers to the pistol in the case of the Dragoon description, but rather it was the arm used by the U.S. Dragoons.
This discussion goes round and round with Colt's collectors. I know some members of the CCA (Colt Collectors Association) that just spit when they look at how the models are labeled in the publications and even the web site. Years ago the names Walker, Dragoon, Army Model and Navy Models got so entrenched it will never be changed. I don't think the members used to be the "purists" we have today. There were some great Colt's scholars in the '50s and '60s but they were perfectly happy to use the common names for the revolvers. They were more concerned with debates and dogmatic positions on things like the Fluck claims on the late serial number 1847 replacements to the Army that fall way after the Model 1848s had been in production.
I was just pointing out they actually had names the government bought them under and there were official names that Colt's used in dealing with the government on those pistols. I have even seen internal documents where Colt's called the 1851 the "Navy." and then in 1861 when they introduced the 1861 they called it the "Improved Navy Model with the new creeping loading lever." This was all because the term "Navy" had become synonymous with .36 caliber and as I pointed out earlier the .44 caliber was synonymous with .44 caliber. They touted the 1861 as being able to digest any paper cartridge because of the improved lever and opening. By the time the 1861 came out paper cartridges with conical bullets had become the load of choice and sometimes it is hard to get a cartridge into the loading channel and under the lever of the 1851. This channel changed in shape from 1851 to 1873 on the Model 1851.
And finally, you are entirely correct about Samuel Colt being willing to use anything to obtain a sale. If there was ever anyone who could have sold Ice to Eskimos, it was Sam Colt. He was a visionary, industrialist and great inventor, but the was ever the salesman.
Regards,
Mako
Norton Commando
Member
Well it was more than I could stand - that vintage Colt advertisement pushed me over the edge to purchase a new pattern 3rd generation Colt Dragoon. I have four Colt black powder arms now, three originals and one pattern 1860 Army. And in smokeless powder, I have a Gold Cup National Match and a Detective Special. My Colt-wants seem insatiable and none of the guns in my current collection are as hefty or as unusual as the Dragoon. So I did the deed and purchased one from Dixie Gun Works; the $350 price seemed reasonable for a new Uberti Colt Dragoon, considering that the asking price for used ones is nearly the same. 
tom e gun
Member
thanks guys for the interesting pieces of colt history! always a good read! and Norton, now you just need to post pictures of your newest addition
wittzo
Member
I posted some pics I just took in a new thread comparing the Walker, Dragoon, and 1860 side by side with a ruler.
makos_goods
Member
... So I did the deed and purchased one from Dixie Gun Works; the $350 price seemed reasonable for a new Uberti Colt Dragoon, considering that the asking price for used ones is nearly the same.
Excellent! Then the discussion has led to some fruitful results
, we will now have another proud Holster pistol owner. The 3rd Model is always a good choice especially if you have big hands because the trigger guard won't bust your "knuckles" (actually your middle finger). I would recommend a 3rd Model to someone unless they have shot a full sized 1847, 1st model, 2nd model or the "Whitneyville-Dragoon" before and know the trigger guard won't bite them.
The squared back trigger guard is what I always disliked about the original Ruger Super Blackhawk trigger guards, they busted your second finger under recoil. It was actually the square edge coming back down after the revolver had pivoted a bit in your hand under hard recoil. With .44 Spl loads your hand would pivot at the wrist and all was well, but under booming .44 mag loads they always slipped a bit in the hand with the smooth wood grips. Pachmyers helped with the recoil, but the original Pachmyer designs pushed my fingers up against the trigger guard.
If you are just shooting target or plinking, especially with less than full cylinder loads of BP the original square guards are fine. If you have time to adjust your grip and taking your time the square guard probably won't even be an issue, but if you are drawing them from holsters on the clock and shooting in the summer with a bit of sweat on your hands then I can attest they will from time to time bite you (me at least) even with 40 grain loads under a ball.
The 1847 and 1848 Holster pistol grips (not trigger guards) are my favorite size for length and girth. Bill Ruger chose that general shape and size of the grips when he started making his single action revolvers but I'm guessing he chose the square trigger guard and 1/4" longer grip for his Super Blackhawk because it was synonymous with the more powerful "Dragoon type" pistols. He did make some style blunders with other of his products, he definitely had an esoteric lapse in judgment when it came to his original "dog leg" bolt design on his model 77 rifles. I think the "Dragoon" style trigger guard was a nod to the past big pistols, since then Ruger now makes the Super Blackhawk with a rounded trigger guard on some versions intended for hard recoiling hunting pistols.
The Whitneyville-Hartford Dragoon is actually my favorite shorter cylinder Colt's pattern Holster pistol. I like the "iron" backstrap and the grip shape where it blends to the frame, it just looks good. The lever latch, shorter barrel and the lighter weight make it a pistol you can shoot with both pistols drawn. Try that for an entire match with your "Walkers." You can do it (and I have) but it is sort of a special event type of thing. I guess the 1860 Army models have spoiled me, except I do like the Holster pistol grip shape better. The 1860 Army is larger (read that as longer) than the grips we now call Navy size, but the girth starts out like a Navy model shape and just blends out to the added length of the Army model grip. I guess my ideal percussion pistol would be an 1860 with 1847/1848 grips on it with the round trigger guard.
Congratulations Norton Commando,
Mako
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