drawing a 1911...when to thumb safety off

[Slamfire]

That M1911 safety. Could be on when you want it off, could be off when you want it on.

Same issues for the grip safety, as you are rolling your hand around trying to find that safety.

It is an obsolete platform for self defense.

 

[mustang_steve]

I don't have a 1911 yet, but for all my pistols with safeties, they come off mid-draw, as I just made my grip and the pistol cleared the low-ready position.

Once I'm at ready and the target is in the sights, the finger drops into the triggerguard and begins to squeeze.

 

[1911Tuner]

That M1911 safety. Could be on when you want it off, could be off when you want it on.

Same issues for the grip safety, as you are rolling your hand around trying to find that safety.

Non-issues for those of us who work with the pistol enough to know it intimately. Practice. Practice. Practice.

It is an obsolete platform for self defense.

Maybe in your world. Not in ours. Diff'rent strokes and all.

Back on topic...

My habits are a little different. Not being LEO, I have no mandates on holding a suspect at gun point, nor issuing a verbal command to drop the weapon. If the situation has degraded to the point that I have to reach for the gun, it's past negotiating terms of surrender. Way past.

Once that point has been reached, there isn't time to be shillying around with trying to keep the gun on target while I press the safety off and more jiggling around while I find the trigger. People live and die in fractions of seconds.

The safety comes off as my hand locks onto the grip. My finger goes into the trigger guard as the gun comes to low-ready. Trigger press starts, and the hammer breaks as the gun comes to point-shoulder. It's an automatic firing sequence that...once started...can only be terminated by a conscious effort of will.

Another way...If I reach for the gun, I've already made the decision to fire. In order to stop, I have to make a conscious decision not to fire. This is the main reason that I like a 6-pound trigger on a 1911 pistol.

 

[Fred Fuller]

It is an obsolete platform for self defense.

Well, THIS ought to be interesting... y'all remember, this is still THR...

lpl (if the 1911 is obsolete, does that mean wheel guns are practically antediluvian?)

 

[9mmepiphany]

What do you do if you have a Glock then?

You could always have a Cominolli thumb safety installed

I would like for someone to change my mind about flicking the safety on and off....
...and I cannot imagine any good reasons to wait until the target is aquired. I just don't see the advantage.

I'd never try to change someones mind about something like this. But if someone ask or a student is being introduced to the platform, I don't see a downside to teaching the safest way to do something if there isn't a downside to it. It is solely a training issue just like keeping your finger off the trigger...I've never understood why some folks take their thumb off the safety, after disengaging it, to grip under it either (and there is a downside to that).

It is my view that it is an unnecessary short cut, which I would not teach to someone new to the platform

 

[BBQLS1]

It is an obsolete platform for self defense.

Well, THIS ought to be interesting... y'all remember, this is still THR...

lpl (if the 1911 is obsolete, does that mean wheel guns are practically antediluvian?)

If you are using a wheelgun, you might as well be using a flint lock pistol.

 

[dayid]

Thumb safety goes off once the weapon is safely holstered.

While in a proper holster, the gun is not going to go off on its own.

When drawing, finger off trigger until you're ready to shoot - same as any other firearm.

 

[BBQLS1]

9mmepiphany, I'm really just trying to figure out the advantage to doing something other than safety off as it's pulled from the holster. I have a hard time seeing it.

On one hand, you have an extra layer of safety, but the other is you may forget to flick the safety off when you need it..... I'm not thinking about "now the target is acquired, flick safety" but more like holding the muzzle on somone and they stop complying/attempt to harm you and you must react quickly....

 

[Fred Fuller]

you may forget to flick the safety off when you need it

This is not a hardware problem.

THIS IS A SOFTWARE PROBLEM.

Fix your 'software' and your hardware will generally take care of itself...

lpl

 

[BBQLS1]

I agree that it is a software issue.... I'm trying to understand why it's a benefit to constantly toggle the safety. By doing so, you are introducing morre opportunities to screw up. You are complicating the encounter and adding to the time needed to react to a threat...

By the same token, the same software issue can be said for just keeping the finger off the trigger.

 

[rvn67n20]

9mmepiphany, your links as well as your posts are the sort that got me to register here. Thank you!

 

[ForumSurfer]

He doesn't have internet

How will he ever learn to defend himself?!

I flick mine off just as the muzzle clears the holster. That's how I practice. I can say all I want, but in a real situation I'd resort to how I practice.

 

[royal barnes]

I always find it amusing when an OP asks us how we do something, we tell him, and eventually it evolves into an argument over why "my way is better than yours".

 

[TexasRifleman]

Thumb safety goes off once the weapon is safely holstered.

While in a proper holster, the gun is not going to go off on its own.

I don't think even the late Col Cooper carried in Condition 0. Might be going a bit far with that one, but to each his own. I'm not quite that trusting I guess.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I agree that it is a software issue.... I'm trying to understand why it's a benefit to constantly toggle the safety. By doing so, you are introducing morre opportunities to screw up. You are complicating the encounter and adding to the time needed to react to a threat...

By the same token, the same software issue can be said for just keeping the finger off the trigger.

It doesn't add more time as it happens during the same moment that your trigger finger enters the triggerguard, it isn't two separate actions.

I think experience (competition and YouTube) has shown us that that software has been known to fail at certain times.

When I see the number of folks who will move between shooting points (both in competition and training classes) with their fingers either in the trigger guard or trying to cheat in, I think a thumb safety wouldn't be such a bad idea. This is also a valid argument for de-cocking a DA/SA pistol

 

[9mmepiphany]

9mmepiphany, your links as well as your posts are the sort that got me to register here. Thank you!

Thank you for the appreciation, I'm glad you find it helpful

 

[BBQLS1]

I always find it amusing when an OP asks us how we do something, we tell him, and eventually it evolves into an argument over why "my way is better than yours".

I'm not arguing with anyone. I'm just wanting to understand the logic a little better.

It doesn't add more time as it happens during the same moment that your trigger finger enters the triggerguard, it isn't two separate actions.

I think experience (competition and YouTube) has shown us that that software has been known to fail at certain times.

When I see the number of folks who will move between shooting points (both in competition and training classes) with their fingers either in the trigger guard or trying to cheat in, I think a thumb safety wouldn't be such a bad idea. This is also a valid argument for de-cocking a DA/SA pistol

1. Good point on the timelieness.

2. Yes and why some move away from the 1911 platform.

3. I can see the point here. For me, I know mine lies flat on the frame just below the slide when I'm not shooting. I had worked really hard to incorporate it into the way I handle a firearm it honestly just feels unatural to have my finger anywhere else when holding a firearm.

I don't think I will change when I use the safety, but it seems to me it's a wash provided you train with one process and stick with it.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I think experience (competition and YouTube) has shown us that that software has been known to fail at certain times.

When I see the number of folks who will move between shooting points (both in competition and training classes) with their fingers either in the trigger guard or trying to cheat in

And I still insist that software failure is a SOFTWARE problem...

I'm trying to understand why it's a benefit to constantly toggle the safety.

Only problem with running around with a hot gun (chamber loaded/safety off) is that other things besides fingers can pull triggers... no, it isn't likely, but yes, it can/does happen.

lpl

 

[mustang_steve]

Waiting for target acquisition is not a good plan since that implies your thumb has to move back up to make the move, or you're holding the gun insecurely for too long, allowing one to be disarmed. It's bad for retention.

Why I do it as I pass "low ready" is that's the point my hands meet, so my thumb goes down from the back of the hammer or slide (depending on gun) and does it's gradual sweep downward, which disengages the safety, finally resting in it's proper place.

At low-ready the hand is a bit more flexible due to the positioning of them, so the motion is easier to perform.

 

[dayid]

I don't think even the late Col Cooper carried in Condition 0. Might be going a bit far with that one, but to each his own. I'm not quite that trusting I guess.

Jeff Cooper is also said to have disabled the grip safety on his 1911 and said a few times that he didn't believe they were any good. He's not the end-all be-all of firearms. I don't say that to jump on his grave.

That said, the thumb-safety off I still don't believe should be condition 0. In condition zero the safety is off and the gun is fully ready to fire upon trigger press. With a working 1911 this is not true until you firmly grasp the firearm. This, walking around with a cocked 1911 with the thumb-safety down, the gun is still "on-safe" until it is grasped. Since so many say they sweep the safety when they draw - why bother with the extra step? Sure you can train until you're quick that way, but it's still an extra (needless) step, and always will be. If it makes them more comfortable, good for them though.

I will say that it's still handy for those that fumble when re-holstering (and why it was added...).

 

[9mmepiphany]

Waiting for target acquisition is not a good plan since that implies your thumb has to (1)move back up to make the move, or you're holding the gun insecurely for too long, allowing one to be disarmed. It's bad for retention.

Why I do it as I pass "low ready" is that's the point my hands meet, so (2) my thumb goes down from the back of the hammer or slide (depending on gun) and does it's gradual sweep downward, which disengages the safety, finally resting in it's (3) proper place.

Maybe I'm tired or maybe I'm just not reading it right...maybe you can clear it up a bit for me:
(1): Back up from where?
(2): Are you saying your Master Grip, in the holster, has your thumb on the back of the hammer or slide? Why?
(3): The correct positioning of the strong thumb, when shooting a 1911, is atop the thumb safety lever (to keep it from being knocked on inadvertently during recoil)...were you referring to another position?

 

[1911Tuner]

This, walking around with a cocked 1911 with the thumb-safety down, the gun is still "on-safe" until it is grasped....I will say that it's still handy for those that fumble when re-holstering (and why it was added...).

Exactly. With the gun holstered, the trigger is still blocked by the grip safety, and if the hammer hooks fail, the half-cock notch will still grab the sear.

Note that if the sear should instantaneously turn to powder, the thumb safety will not stop the hammer.

Try this...in the interest of science:

Cock the pistol with the chamber empty. Don't engage the thumb safety. Carry it every day in a holster for a month...cocked and unlocked. Leave it cocked when you take it off at night. At the end of the month, there's about a 99.99% certainty that the pistol will still be cocked, and if it's not...it'll be on half cock.

 

[ChCx2744]

Safety comes off after I draw and before I acquire the target. So from the time I clear leather and put the front sight on the goblin, the safety is off somewhere in between.

 

[Jeff White]

I would like for someone to change my mind about flicking the safety on and off....
...and I cannot imagine any good reasons to wait until the target is aquired. I just don't see the advantage.

Probably not applicable to the majority of the members here, but if you are moving in the dark with the pistol unholstered and either at a high ready or low ready position it is entirely possible that you could inadvertently get some item of your equipment or something from the environment you are working in inside the trigger guard and have it activate the trigger causing an ND. That's why the safety should be on until you are ready to fire. If you aren't a member of a law enforcement or military unit this technique may not be applicable to you. But if you are one of the members here who insists on clearing their own home in the dark (very unsafe and not recommended), it may be something you should consider.

As I stated in my earlier post, I carry a 1911 on duty. The safety is disengaged on the draw, if I am drawing to arrest someone at gun point and I don't intend to fire right away, the safety goes back on. I do this every time I draw because I don't want to confuse the muscle memory that I have built up through thousands of repetitions. My finger is never in the trigger guard until I am ready to fire.

 

[Crowcifier666]

I never keep the safety on.