Dropping Slide on Empty Chamber--Bad for Gun

[aaaaa]

The old Bullseye shooters had to, and I mean those were the range rules at the time, hold the hammer back with their thumb. when they dropped the slide. Modern beavertails have made that impossible, but it still can be done with the military grip safety.

Very good info, so holding the hammer down to let the slide slam on an empty chamber is okay? But isn't the hammer cocked and will stay cocked during releasing the slide? So what is the difference? Is there a little additional pullback on the hammer by holding it than just leaving it cocked, and that makes the difference? But doesn't it still beat up the chamber mouth?

I was told by the Armorer on the All Guard team to hold the trigger back on a 1911 when dropping the slide on a loaded round, so I assume the advise is good with an empty chamber. When the trigger is held back the disconnector is engaged and the sear will not be damaged.

I would think that could cause it to fire upon slide drop, no?

 

[MedWheeler]

gobsause writes:

(paraphrase What's a 10-8 test?

It's a law-enforcement-oriented pistol shooting drill, incorporating both fire and reloading using each hand only as well as both hands together, starting with a holstered sidearm. It involves 65 rounds of fire.

In the synopsis below, however, I saw no part that involved intentionally slingshotting the slide closed over an empty chamber.


https://pistol-training.com/shooting-drills/10-8-pistol-test/

 

[9mmepiphany]

Very good info, so holding the hammer down to let the slide slam on an empty chamber is okay?

A lot of questions here in one post. I'll try to address them all simply...focused on the 1911. If you need more explanation on any point, please ask specifically for more clarity for future readers

But isn't the hammer cocked and will stay cocked during releasing the slide?

Yes and No...it stays cocked, but bounces/batters the sear/hammer when the slide is released on an empty pistol

So what is the difference? Is there a little additional pullback on the hammer by holding it than just leaving it cocked,

Yes, you can rock the hammer hooks out of engagement with the tip of the sear

... and that makes the difference?

Yes, quite a bit, depending on how fine the trigger is tuned

But doesn't it still beat up the chamber mouth?

Nope, it doesn't

I would think that could cause it to fire upon slide drop, no?

Pinning the trigger to the rear leaves the Disconnector engaged as the slide runs forward

 

[aaaaa]

So from the responses above I gather that either method (holding the trigger or holding back the hammer) achieves the same result for dropping a slide on an empty chamber. Good to know. I am partway into a learning curve here having just purchased a 1911s two days ago--and haven't even shot it yet, but eating up the information as fast as I can. Thanks!

 

[Slamfire]

Very good info, so holding the hammer down to let the slide slam on an empty chamber is okay? But isn't the hammer cocked and will stay cocked during releasing the slide? So what is the difference? Is there a little additional pullback on the hammer by holding it than just leaving it cocked, and that makes the difference? But doesn't it still beat up the chamber mouth?

Holding the hammer back positive releases it from the sear. The basic problem Bullseye shooters had back then, was that the aftermarket parts sector was not as developed as today's, and what was available were WW2 1911 parts. All made from cheap materials which did not last long when filed/stoned to give crisp releases. So many hammer following occurred on slide releases, that the practice was to hold the hammer back when dropping the slide. Then of course release the hammer once the slide was forward. That protected the hammer and sear surfaces from any bounch or jarring during slide drop.

The back of the barrel has a wedge shape to cam it into position, I would think that could wear, but I have not seen it. I am not worried about the link or link pins. Just have not seen problems with my modern pistosl.

I would think that could cause it to fire upon slide drop, no?

Not if the sear hold the hammer in place when the thumb is taking off the hammer spur.

 

[md7]

gobsause writes:



It's a law-enforcement-oriented pistol shooting drill, incorporating both fire and reloading using each hand only as well as both hands together, starting with a holstered sidearm. It involves 65 rounds of fire.

In the synopsis below, however, I saw no part that involved intentionally slingshotting the slide closed over an empty chamber.


https://pistol-training.com/shooting-drills/10-8-pistol-test/

I was referring to the 10-8 extractor test, https://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=131

You’re correct, there’s no slingshotting the slide closed on an empty chamber. However, the pistol is fired with no magazine so the slide does close full force on an empty chamber.

I didn’t realize there was a 10-8 drill, such as you linked. That’s cool.

 

[md7]

Sorry to deviate a little from the OP's question, but I've never heard of this - What is it?

Extractor function test that’s 1911 specific. You load a round and remove the magazine, then fire the round. The idea is to verify things like extractor function and tension.

I mention it because when doing this, the slide falls full force on an empty chamber.

Link, https://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=131

 

[P5 Guy]

Empty guns are always closed gently here. Rifles, pistols and revolvers.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

I don't know about 1911's, but I have made chambering force measurements on my Sig P365. To measure the actual force required to chamber a round from the magazine you need to remove the recoil spring assembly, striker assembly, and the disconnector. It only requires about 1.6 lbs of force to chamber a cartridge from the magazine. That is not a lot force compared the 17 lb return force of the slide return spring. But it WILL have a SMALL effect on slowing down the slide.

But is it actually significant enough to make a difference, considering how few times someone allows the slide to slam closed on an empty chamber versus the number of times they actually fire their pistol? I have very serious doubts that allowing a slide to slam closed on a modern striker fired pistol will cause any significant amount wear or damage.

Am I going to allow the slide to slam closed on an empty chamber? Not intentionally, because there is no good reason for doing it. I also don't want to develop bad habits. I try to use the same process every time so as not to confuse various pistol operations. Consistent process helps reduce errors. So for this reason alone I would NOT want to use the same procedure for two different conditions, such as allowing a slide to slam closed on an empty chamber AND slam closed on a loaded chamber.

I ONLY allow the slide to slam closed when chambering a cartridge from the magazine. When my pistol is clean, I COULD ease the slide closed when chambering from the magazine and the return spring will pull the slide back into battery every single time. But I still maintain the habit to let the slide slam closed into battery because of the possibility of adverse conditions in a self defense situation, such as dirt or mud getting into my pistol that might need the maximum amount of inertia to close the slide into battery.

When I manually chamber the 1st round through the ejection port I ONLY ease the slide closed and then press the rear of the extractor inward to pivot the extractor claw clear of the shell case rim so the return spring can return the slide into battery.

Be consistent.

 

[aaaaa]

When I manually chamber the 1st round through the ejection port I ONLY ease the slide closed and then press the rear of the extractor inward to pivot the extractor claw clear of the shell case rim so the return spring can return the slide into battery.

I like this idea because if you chamber without the violence of racking one in, then you should not have to move that round to the practice ammo pile if you remove it from the gun.

 

[JTQ]

I was watching a video on the 1911 (since I just got one) and one thing they said was never drop a slide on an empty chamber.

I am partway into a learning curve here having just purchased a 1911s two days ago--and haven't even shot it yet, but eating up the information as fast as I can. Thanks!

Since you are new to 1911's, another question that often comes up, is...

"why can't I drop the slide with an empty mag in the gun? Is my gun broken?"

No, your gun is not broken. The follower is designed to lock the slide back. With an empty mag in the gun, it should be extremely difficult or almost impossible to release the slide. There is no reason to do it anyway. Take out the empty mag, or insert a loaded mag to lower the slide.

 

[JTQ]

I don't know about 1911's, ...

When I manually chamber the 1st round through the ejection port I ONLY ease the slide closed and then press the rear of the extractor inward to pivot the extractor claw clear of the shell case rim so the return spring can return the slide into battery.

I like this idea because if you chamber without the violence of racking one in, then you should not have to move that round to the practice ammo pile if you remove it from the gun.

Don't do this. The 1911 is not designed to directly chamber load a round. Always load your rounds from a magazine.

 

[Mizar]

When I manually chamber the 1st round through the ejection port I ONLY ease the slide closed and then press the rear of the extractor inward to pivot the extractor claw clear of the shell case rim so the return spring can return the slide into battery.

This is not a very good practice for pivoted extractors & controlled feed pistols, because the spring is not designed for such compression and will loose tension quicker. And proper extractor tension is crucial if you want a well behaving pistol.

 

[trackskippy]

Don't do this. The 1911 is not designed to directly chamber load a round. Always load your rounds from a magazine.

Yup, or youre likely to end up with this.....



If you look closely, you'll see the "claw" at the end is missing.

This is from my sons gun. His buddy was shooting it and dropped a round in the chamber and dropped the slide on it. Gun didnt seem to want to work after that.

 

[gobsauce]

Yup, or youre likely to end up with this.....

View attachment 1111293

If you look closely, you'll see the "claw" at the end is missing.

This is from my sons gun. His buddy was shooting it and dropped a round in the chamber and dropped the slide on it. Gun didnt seem to want to work after that.

I obviously know what that is, but can you explain it to my friend who doesn't?

 

[Mizar]

Guys, pay attention to what extractor type Alllen is talking about.

 

[JTQ]

Guys, pay attention to what extractor type Alllen is talking about.

I'm pretty sure you know what you're talking about, but in the event you are talking to me, since I posted about the extractor, and not the OP who is asking about it, or Alllen Bundy and why he posted this information in a 1911 thread ...

I know what Alllen is talking about. He's not talking about a 1911 - he said he doesn't know much about 1911's - but the OP is talking about a 1911, and I'm trying to help prevent the OP from damaging his gun.

 

[trackskippy]

I obviously know what that is, but can you explain it to my friend who doesn't?

This is a "complete" 1911 extractor. You can see the "claw" at the end that's missing on the pic I posted.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

Folks, do note that I said "Pivot the extractor claw". I was clearly referring to an external pivoting extractor.

Also note that the extractor spring inside P365 has a plastic plug inside the spring to prevent over-compression. I've also manually chambered my P365 over 1,900 times with the same spring without any sign of a failure to eject or an extractor problem.

I like this idea because if you chamber without the violence of racking one in, then you should not have to move that round to the practice ammo pile if you remove it from the gun.

That is one of the main reasons that I manually chamber the first round.

For those that are having 1911 extractors breaking, maybe you need a better quality extractor. There seems to be an aftermarket providing extractors that aren't prone to breakage. The lifespan of 1911 extractors seems to be all over the place. You might also consider that the 1911 is an antiquated design and there are more reliable pistols for self defense available.

If you cannot safely manually chamber a pistol, you should NOT be carrying that pistol for self defense. If you have a failure to feed malfunction, manual chambering may be your only option that could safe your life.

 

[JTQ]

Folks, do note that I said "Pivot the extractor claw". I was clearly referring to an external pivoting extractor.

Yes you were.

This is a thread about 1911's, and things that you should or should not do with the 1911.

You should not direct chamber rounds into a 1911. Rounds should be chambered from the magazine. Could you direct chamber a round into a 1911, sure, just like you can drop the slide on a 1911 with an empty chamber. However, as trackskippy pointed out, you run the chance of snapping off the extractor hook, and as folks have mentioned in this thread - outside of a couple of outliers - you shouldn't drop the slide on a empty chamber.

This is not an issue of good or bad extractors, though a good one would probably last longer than a bad one. It is an issue that there is no extractor spring in a 1911, the extractor is the spring, and since the extractor sits in a tunnel in the slide, there is not as much room for flex inside the tunnel as there is for an external extractor. Just don't do it, and your extractor will last longer.

 

[tark]

I was told by the Armorer on the All Guard team to hold the trigger back on a 1911 when dropping the slide on a loaded round, so I assume the advise is good with an empty chamber. When the trigger is held back the disconnector is engaged and the sear will not be damaged.

This makes sense, because when firing the gun, your finger is holding the trigger back while the slide cycles. I don't think any of us are quick enough to release the trigger before the slide starts back forward. I believe this might also prevent damage to the sear if you are dropping the slide on an empty chamber.

I think that dropping the slide on an empty chamber with a standard, non customized 1911, probably isn't going to hurt anything. A highly tuned gun with a three pound trigger....not so good of an idea.

 

[Jim Watson]

1940 Army manual says:

If it is desired to make the pistol ready for instant use and for firing the maximum number of shots with the least possible delay, draw back the slide, insert a cartridge by hand into the chamber of the barrel, allow the slide to close, then lock the slide and the cocked hammer by pressing the safety lock upward and insert a loaded magazine.

I haven't seen anything yet about slamming the slide, will read further.

 

[tark]

I still slingshot the slide when it's feeding time,

By "feeding time" I assume you mean loading a round into the chamber from the magazine. It that situation, no attempt should be made to ease the slide forward. It needs to "slam forward" in order to overcome the resistance from stripping a round from the mag and chambering it.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

"I haven't seen anything yet about slamming the slide, will read further."

1940 Army manual says: "allow the slide to close"

It doesn't say "ease the slide closed", which you would have expected if it was required. This would imply to close the slide normally which is a fast release of the slide by either slingshot or releasing the slide catch.

Another reason that you need to be able to SAFELY close the slide over a cartridge already inside the firing chamber is a failure to eject, such as that which you experience in a double feed malfunction.

This is a thread about 1911's, and things that you should or should not do with the 1911.

From the original post:

...I am wondering where the problem is with this and whether this warning applies to all semi-autos or is just specific to the 1911.

This discussion would appear to be about ALL semi-autos, NOT just 1911's.

...This is not an issue of good or bad extractors, though a good one would probably last longer than a bad one. It is an issue that there is no extractor spring in a 1911, the extractor is the spring, and since the extractor sits in a tunnel in the slide, there is not as much room for flex inside the tunnel as there is for an external extractor. Just don't do it, and your extractor will last longer.

As I said, the 1911 is an antiquated design and there are more reliable spring loaded pivoting extractor designs in modern pistols available for self defense. But it is ALSO an issue about extractor quality. The 1940 Army manual suggests that is is acceptable to manually chamber a round. The 1911 extractor is a consumable part with a limited lifespan. But from what I have read online it appears that some non-military grade1911 extractors are very poor quality and subject to failure.

You can also baby a Porsche and never accelerate quickly and the clutch will last much longer. But there are also different grades of clutch disks and clutch pressure plates. I used to burn out a standard clutch disk in my VW Beetle in one year. Now with the heavy duty clutch disk and clutch pressure plate I get 3 years of heavy use before failure. Not much different than an extractor.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Extractor function test that’s 1911 specific. You load a round and remove the magazine, then fire the round. The idea is to verify things like extractor function and tension.

It is also a useful test to verify the cause of the famous Brass-To-Face. The occurrence of BTF with a 1911 should also cause you to inspect your extractor's tension