Dropping Slide on Empty Chamber--Bad for Gun

[9mmepiphany]

I like this idea because if you chamber without the violence of racking one in, then you should not have to move that round to the practice ammo pile if you remove it from the gun.

Please don't do this...it isn't a good idea.

While it can be done occasionally, doing it on a consistent basis with a 1911 will shorten the life of the extractor...this would be regardless of the quality of the extractor. The 1911 was designed for the round to be controlled from the magazine into the chamber by having the rim feed up under the extractor hook as the round is stripped from the mag.

A former Marine shooting instructor related the story of how they went through a large number of extractors, in CQB training...both issued and aftermarket...during their failure to feed drills. Upon inspection by their team armorer, the cause was traced back to allowing the extractor hook to snap over the rim of a chambered cartridge.

They still practiced their failure drills, but they henceforth changed out their extractors after training and before carrying their pistols into action.

 

[aaaaa]

Since you are new to 1911's, another question that often comes up, is...

"why can't I drop the slide with an empty mag in the gun? Is my gun broken?"

No, your gun is not broken. The follower is designed to lock the slide back. With an empty mag in the gun, it should be extremely difficult or almost impossible to release the slide. There is no reason to do it anyway. Take out the empty mag, or insert a loaded mag to lower the slide.

Yep, just watched a video that said to drop the slide when the mag is empty, pull the mag first and it will release more easily. Even said that leaving the empty mag in the gun and pulling back on the slide to get the release off is hard on some of the internals. I tried it and yep it does release a lot easier if you drop the empty mag.

 

[aaaaa]

So I grabbed some Pachmayr snap caps in .45 ACP today and tried out the action. It is not chambering and once I get one chambered it will jam on the next one. Notice in the middle two images how the top round is cocked upward leaving a gap between it and the round below it. It is almost like the top of the magazine is angled wrong. On the far right I hold the round down with my finger. If I only put one round in it lays flat on the follower--well, there is a little play but not near as much as if a round is in below it. Could it be a defective magazine? This is the one that came with the gun.

But wait, I just tried it again and cocked the hammer before racking the slide (makes the slide a whole lot easier to rack) and just racked and fed 4 rounds with no issues, so maybe it is me. But is that top round supposed to sit cocked up like that? Then some more tries and more jamming. Finally, I figured out to rack it hard and fast. It is weak rack action that is causing the jams so one must put gusto into it, eh? Well the proof will be how it runs real ammo.

 

[JTQ]

But is that top round supposed to sit cocked up like that?

Yes, though it will look different depending on the feed lip style of the magazine.

The angle will also change depending on how many rounds are in the tube.

https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/nosedive-and-feed-angle-in-the-1911-45-acp/

 

[aaaaa]

Yes, though it will look different depending on the feed lip style of the magazine.

The angle will also change depending on how many rounds are in the tube.

https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/nosedive-and-feed-angle-in-the-1911-45-acp/

Wow! Thanks! I never knew that and look at this from the linked article:

The higher feed angle during live fire might help to explain why some people experience nosedive stoppages during hand cycling but not so much when shooting.

A lot to learn, just like if I had bought a Model-A Ford. But I like this gun and believe that it will be with me for a long time, then passed down to my son.

So for dry fire practice, get one chambered off the magazine, then just cock the hammer to dry fire instead of racking all the time and picking up snap caps off the carpet (if the dog doesn't get there first).

 

[JTQ]

It is not chambering and once I get one chambered it will jam on the next one.

Wilson Combat has instructions for their mags, and they are worthwhile for others as well. Load them up and let them sit, fully loaded for several days. They will function better.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/wilsoncombat/files/47Series.pdf

Like other mechanical devices, your Wilson Combat® magazine may be a little stiff when first used. This is normal and should not effect its feeding capabilities, however you will notice that as you use your magazine it will become easier to load and seat in your pistol and it will function even more smoothly over time. If you wish to expedite the break in process simply leave your new magazine loaded to capacity for a day or two, this will pre-set the spring to normal operating tension.

 

[JTQ]

So for dry fire practice, get one chambered off the magazine, then just cock the hammer to dry fire instead of racking all the time and picking up snap caps off the carpet (if the dog doesn't get there first).

Sure, or don't use snap caps.

 

[JTQ]

A lot to learn, just like if I had bought a Model-A Ford.

Or a Ferrari.

 

[aaaaa]

Or a Ferrari.

I like that. Much better way to characterize the 1911!

 

[9mmepiphany]

I like that. Much better way to characterize the 1911!

How about telling us which 1911 you bought?

Finally, I figured out to rack it hard and fast. It is weak rack action that is causing the jams so one must put gusto into it, eh?

It isn't so much that it needs to be racked "hard and fast", but it needs to be racked all the way to the rear before it is released while the frame is held still...not following the slide forward when it is released.

Since you mentioned the angle of the bullets in the mag, here's another fact that many 1911 users don't know.

When the slide is closed and the barrel is in battery, the barrel isn't parallel with the top of the slide. It actually points slightly downward...that's why the muzzle shouldn't be cut flush with the slide/barrel bushing

 

[aaaaa]

How about telling us which 1911 you bought?

Charles Daly Field 1911. A really well built basic 1911. Walnut grips too.

 

[aaaaa]

It isn't so much that it needs to be racked "hard and fast", but it needs to be racked all the way to the rear before it is released while the frame is held still...not following the slide forward when it is released.

Since you mentioned the angle of the bullets in the mag, here's another fact that many 1911 users don't know.

When the slide is closed and the barrel is in battery, the barrel isn't parallel with the top of the slide. It actually points slightly downward...that's why the muzzle shouldn't be cut flush with the slide/barrel bushing

Got it, and my hard and fast was apparently achieving the "all the way to the rear" effect. Yes let go of the slide, easier said than done I suppose. Another thing to practice and develop muscle memory. Easier to let go on a mouse gun with the tiny slides. These big slides are too easy to hang on to too long.

So the slightly downward angle of the barrel maybe to compensate for muzzle flip.

 

[9mmepiphany]

So the slightly downward angle of the barrel maybe to compensate for muzzle flip.

Just the way the barrel lugs were designed to lock up in the slide

 

[Alllen Bundy]

FYI, retracting the slide slowly on an unspent cartridge can in fact cause a Sig P365 to jam. If you are using cartridges with an overall length close to the maximum specification, such as Speer Gold Dot 9 mm, when you get to the to the last round in the magazine and you are trying to eject the 2nd to the last unspent round, AND you are retracting the slide slowly, the cartridge nose WILL tip upward and lodge in the inspection slot between the upper barrel lugs before inertia can expel the cartridge sideways. When this jam happens the slide will not move forward or backward. Tap-Roll-Rack often makes the jam worse. It is difficult to impossible free the cartridge WITHOUT first removing the magazine.

While this will ALWAYS happen with the 2nd to the last round (With a long cartridge.), if you retract the slide slowly, it can potentially happen with any round count in the magazine. This jamming does NOT occur with Sig 9mm 115 gr cartridges or a number of other brands of shorter cartridges. The only time this particular jamming malfunction can occur is when you are expelling an unspent cartridge. If you have a dud in a self defense situation, you need to expel that round immediately and chamber another round ASAP.

If you retract the slide quickly, the cartridge is expelled sideways before the nose of the bullet can rise upward far enough between the barrel lugs to jam. And this is just one of the reasons that you should train to retract the slide quickly to extract and eject the cartridge as a matter of ingrained habit.

While I do not normally retract the slide slowly, I was measuring the force required to retract the slide with every number of cartridges left in the magazine and needed to retract the slide slowly for accurate measurements, and I discovered the problem.

Can this happen with other model Sigs and other brands of pistols? I don't know. But I will test for this potential problem with every pistol that I intend to use for self defense. During normal use I will always retract the slide quickly to avoid the problem. If I could, I would buy a barrel WITHOUT the inspection slot.

 

[Tallball]

Thank you everyone for the heads-up. I will be careful to never let a slide slam shut on an empty chamber. I have several 1911's, and they're among my favorites. I didn't know about that aspect of them.

The post above mine explains why I have nice CC semiautos in various calbers, but prefer to carry revolvers.

 

[Demi-human]

and not the OP who is asking about it, or Alllen Bundy and why he posted this information in a 1911 thread ...

I, for one, have grown exceedingly tired of him interjecting that danged Sig into, seemingly, every pistol thread I’ve read lately.

How is a 365 relevant to a 1911 discussion AT ALL?
They are both pistols. That’s it! One in a lesser caliber.
Creedmoor fanbois are amateurs next to this blasted “Fluffing and buffing”! Now we’ll hear about all the things that Browning got wrong at the drafting desk and Colt did sub par at the factory.

Pivoting extractors on a 1911?! Is he mad? That’s like the abomination on the side of what Sig calls a 1911. Oh, wait. I’m seeing a pattern…

I know rifles and handloading ammunition, nearly to a fault, and come here to increase my understanding of pistols. I fully appreciate your, and others, depth of knowledge that you willingly share with these threads.

Some thread drift can open new aspects and questions to an exciting topic, provided it at least relates. Far too many times it doesn’t.

@Alllen Bundy, we are in thread about a specific 1911 pistol that a new shooter has just come into ownership of. He’s never shot a 1911 before and doesn’t know much about 1911s. He is asking specific questions about 1911-centric operations in his quest for more 1911 knowledge. While I personally believe 1911s are the best pistols around, in a 1911 thread about the care and feeding of a 1911 pistol we should stick specifically to discussing 1911s. Especially around a new 1911 owner, that doesn’t know much about 1911s yet.

Get it?

While I can appreciate giant walls of bleeding text, and that you’re a lab technician that tests, things, for a living, and that you enjoy scrubbing the abrasion resistant coatings from your slides, brevity is the soul of wit…
“‘Tis neither the time nor the place, Allen.”

 

[aaaaa]

FYI, retracting the slide slowly on an unspent cartridge can in fact cause a Sig P365 to jam. If you are using cartridges with an overall length close to the maximum specification, such as Speer Gold Dot 9 mm, when you get to the to the last round in the magazine and you are trying to eject the 2nd to the last unspent round, AND you are retracting the slide slowly, the cartridge nose WILL tip upward and lodge in the inspection slot between the upper barrel lugs before inertia can expel the cartridge sideways. When this jam happens the slide will not move forward or backward. Tap-Roll-Rack often makes the jam worse. It is difficult to impossible free the cartridge WITHOUT first removing the magazine.

The jams I was getting running the snap caps often required that I drop the magazine to free the stuck snap cap.

 

[trackskippy]

Snap caps arent all built to the right specs. I use A Zooms in dry fire all the time, and the rims tend to be undersized and even a bit fragile, and the extractors often dont get a good grip, or even chip the rims. They do get chewed up and wear out with use.

I wouldnt consider them to be "the norm" as far as function goes with actual brass cases.

 

[unclenunzie]

I have removed the firing pin and recoil spring and guide rod from a 1911 and carefully cycled live rounds just to observe and feel the feed cycle. I don't recommend doing this, but it does make it possible to get a sense of how the gun feeds and extracts. Observing all safety rules while I did it.

 

[Alllen Bundy]

From the original post:

I am wondering where the problem is with this and whether this warning applies to all semi-autos or is just specific to the 1911.

How is a 365 relevant to a 1911 discussion AT ALL?

This discussion would appear to be about ALL semi-autos, NOT just 1911's.

Pivoting extractors on a 1911?! Is he mad? That’s like the abomination on the side of what Sig calls a 1911.

The non-pivoting extractor in a 1911 is a nostalgic antiquated dinosaur prone to problems. I see many online discussions about 1911 extractor problems and exceedingly few discussions about pivoting extractor problems. I haven't seen a single aftermarket extractor being made for the P365. Could it be that it's design is so superior to a non-pivoting 1911 extractor that no need for an aftermarket pivoting P365 extractor exists?

https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Extractors/products/42/

 

[aaaaa]

Thank you everyone for the heads-up. I will be careful to never let a slide slam shut on an empty chamber. I have several 1911's, and they're among my favorites. I didn't know about that aspect of them.

The post above mine explains why I have nice CC semiautos in various calbers, but prefer to carry revolvers.

Yep, I carry a revolver with a Kel Tec P32 backup. Pretty much forced to a semi-auto for a backup to keep it very small. The 1911 will be a range toy for me, but even so, jamming is no fun on the range either if it happens very much. I am confident the gun will run fine, it is mainly my monkeying with snap caps that is the problem, manually racking is not near the energy of live fire. However, manual racking is a necessary sill both for loading the first round and for clearing a dud.

I appreciate those trying to keep this thread on topic, but I don't mind the generally applicable posts as I have a lot to learn about semi-autos in general too. And, my original concern (slide drop on empty chamber) and later issue (weird stacking in the magazine) have been answered. So the main purpose of the thread has been met.

 

[aaaaa]

So I read in one article that these 1911s don't often come with the best quality magazines. If true, then I need a better magazine. I want a flat cap that does not stick out below the grip like the one that came with it. That will drop it do 7+1 instead of 8+1, which is fine with me. The companies the article recommended include:
https://www.trippresearchinc.com/
https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Magazines/departments/1/
and Chip McCormick https://www.cmproducts.com/

Or is the Charles Daly stock magazine good enought. Guess I will know after I get to the range.

 

[Mizar]

OP, take a look at that slow motion video by Larry Vickers. While not exactly with educational purposes, one can clearly see how a 1911 operates.

 

[trackskippy]

I woudnt go spending a lot of money on mags. If yours works, youll be fine.

I bought a big lot of new in the wrap USGI mags back in the 90's for $5 a piece. They are the only mags that worked in "all" my 1911's, without issue. Even the Wilsons I have havent done that.

 

[JTQ]

The companies the article recommended include:
https://www.trippresearchinc.com/
https://shopwilsoncombat.com/Magazines/departments/1/
and Chip McCormick https://www.cmproducts.com/

Those are three of the top 1911 mag makers. Chip McCormick passed away a couple of years ago, but before he passed, he sold his company to his long time friend Bill Wilson.

All three companies make fine mags, but not all mags in each line-up are equals.

Tripp Cobra Mags in 7 round https://www.trippresearchinc.com/7r-45-wg/ are probably just as good as their 8 rounder https://www.trippresearchinc.com/8r-45-rg/ so choosing one or the other is only a capacity/size difference.

Chip McCormick's (CMC) top mag for a long time was the PowerMag https://www.cmproducts.com/Power-Mag-Full-Size-1911-45-ACP-8-Round-Stainless_p_193.html their new top mag is the Railed PowerMag (RPM) https://www.cmproducts.com/Railed-Power-Mag-RPM-Full-Size-1911-45-ACP-8-Round-Stainless_p_211.html . Up until a couple of years ago Chip McCormick didn't even have a full size 7 round mag in their entire line-up. Their current 7 round offerings may be fine, but they didn't build their reputation off those mags, and I haven't seen many reviews of those mags.

Wilson Combat made their reputation on their 47 Series mag. Their most popular is the 47D (an 8 rounder), it is a good mag, in the entire world of 1911 mags, but it is one of the lesser models in the Wilson Combat line-up. You don't want a mag with a bumper pad anyway, but I'd avoid the 47D and choose something else in the Wilson line-up. The full size 7 round, 47 https://shopwilsoncombat.com/MAGAZI...IZE-7-ROUND-STANDARD-BASE-PAD/productinfo/47/ is arguably their best mag, but also only comes with a bumper pad. The ETM line-up https://shopwilsoncombat.com/45-ACP-Elite-Tactical-Magazines/products/378/ are Wilson's best 8 rounders, but they are longer and also only available with bumper pads. Like CMC, Wilson now offers a flush 7 rounder, but it is also not the mag they made their reputation on. It may be a fine mag, but there is little information on them.

Personally, while I prefer 7 rounders, I also prefer bumper pads. They are more comfortable in the hand, more comfortable on the belt, and make inserting the mag easier, and I don't pinch my palm when inserting the mag.