Dropping the slide on an empty chamber (1911)

[brentn]

Someone made a comment on one of my videos about me dropping the slide on an empty chamber and how its bad for the gun.

I disagree, I mean with forged parts I bet you could drop the slide on an empty chamber 1000 times before you start to notice a problem.

I do realize that when feeding a round into the chamber with slide drop is less force on battery, but with forged parts I am sure that it doesn't matter.

Wouldn't mind some input on this, cause this is one of those things I consider an urban legend...

I created a poll to see what people think who don't want to post, but if you have seen a 1911 trashed because of this, post your story and exactly what was wrecked, and I'll bet it was because of something else.
This is like dry firing on a 1911 as well, I have heard of a guy dry firing his cause it was a rental gun, all the time with no adverse effects on the firing pin, not on a quality one anyways.

Thanks for your time.

 

[1911Tuner]

Beatin' the Horse

This one's been beat to death...but if you'll study the gun, and figure out exactly what stops the slide...and how...you'll start to understand why it's not a good thing to do to it. And no...It's not because of the sear.

 

[foghornl]

Hmmmm... I gotta dig out my manual on my 'GI-45' and see what it says. I do remember something in there about NOT dropping the slide on empty chamber, particularly on those guns that have had "Action Jobs"......


ahhhhhh here it is, direct from Springfield Armory website, page 20 of the 1911 Manual:

Notice: The slide of a 1911-A1 pistol should never
be released on an empty chamber; especially one
which has had an action job. Releasing the slide on
an empty chamber causes damage to the breech
face on the barrel and undue stress on all action
parts, including the hammer and the sear. This will
ruin the action job performed on your pistol.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Sounds to me like Springfield doesn't completely understand the gun that they're building...

Ah well. Onward...

 

[Geno]

Your pistol, break it if you want. My Colt, my choice. I chose to not drop mine in such a manner. If you're lucky, it might even last 1,001 drops...and then

 

[brentn]

Well, you guys are the experts i'm just the amatuer here. After thinking about this all I can think of that would get damaged would be the lugs on the slide and/or barrel after time. Might start creating a loose barrel on battery...

Thanks for your help, I now know what I needed to know.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

brentn...Take the slide off and mount the barrel onto the frame with the slidestop in place. Put the barrel to bed, and swing it forward until it stops.
Think about what stops it. If the light still doesn't come on...remove the barrel and slip the slidestop pin through the link, and swing the pin back and forth on the link...to the linkdown position and to the in-battery position.

See where the pin contacts the lower lug? Those tiny lug feet take the brunt of the 15-ounce slide and the 6-ounce barrel...driven by a 16 or 18-pound recoil spring...and stop the slide's forward momentum that it built up over about 3 inches of travel in less than a tenth of a second. Wham.

Look also at the slidestop pin's hole in the frame...and think about that impact driving the pin against the front radius of that hole. Ever seen that hole pounded into an egg-shape? I've seen more than a few. I've also seen lower lug feet beaten back far enough that the slide sits forward of the frame at the rear. A mismatch that is corrected by simply dropping in another ordnance-spec barrel...no fitting required.

And...as Doc noted...Will it take it for a thousand cycles...or 500...or 200 before something actually breaks? How do you know?

Steel-to-steel impact damage is cumulative. It never repairs itself and it never heals. It accumulates with each impact, each time producing more damage...until you look up one day and realize that somethin' just ain't right about your pistol any more. SO...the question isn't so much how much will it stand..but why abuse the pistol just because it will stand up to X number of impacts before it starts to cause a problem.

Here endeth the lesson.

 

[Jim K]

Tuner explains things well, and I agree. But sometimes answers to this question come close to insanity, with people ranting that dropping the slide one time will break the pistol in half and similar nonsense. I have done it, but don't do it often. I am not sure the slide stops being put on the junkers today are even forged; maybe MIM or even cast iron.

I have also dropped the slide on a chambered round when I had a GI pistol or one with a good extractor. Again, there are junk extractors now being put in the clones, so it is probably not a good idea with them.

As to the action being damaged by the hammer dropping on the sear, I don't know what folks think happens when you fire the gun. Or maybe I forget that a lot of the clone 1911's are meant to be looked at admiringly but never fired.

Jim

 

[1911Tuner]

I agree. But sometimes answers to this question come close to insanity, with people ranting that dropping the slide one time will break the pistol in half and similar nonsense.

Absolutely. It seems to run from one extreme to the other, while ignoring the fact that the pistol was over-engineered in order to allow it to tolerate a certain amount of abuse...understanding full well that in the hands of conscripts...that they would surely be abused at some point. Over-engineered doesn't mean indestructible, however. (There are some people who can manage to break steel ball bearings in a sandbox with a rubber mallet.)

Dropping the slide on an empty gun has pretty much become a litmus test after a trigger job, to insure that the hammer won't follow the slide. i.e. If it won't follow with the gun empty, it's not likely that it will if the gun is stripping a round and loading it into the chamber. No guarantees...just a pretty reliable test.

Now, to the matter of ruining a trigger job:

While it's surely possible to damage a sear crown by doing this, it's not because the hammer bounces off the sear and back on. The sear undergoes more impact stress when the slide moves forward and drops the hammer back onto the sear during normal cycling than any inconsequential bounce can do. Smiths who do really ticklish trigger jobs alter the hammer face so that they have a much shorter fall in order to diminish this anyway.

The damage comes when the hammer follows to half-cock...which is why the trigger smith will often alter the half-cock notch so that it will grab the sear in the center instead of on the areas that contact the hammer hooks.

Hammer follow isn't caused by hammer bounce...though the hammer does bounce to some infintesimal degree, and make it easier for the hammer to lose full contact with the sear. Hammer follow comes because the slide yanks the frame hard forward when it slams home. The trigger...having inertial mass...obeys Newton-2 and stands still...which accomplishes the same thing as lightly pulling the trigger. The trigger nudges the disconnect...which rolls the sear away from the hooks. The hooks lose the sear...the center leg of the sear spring resets the sear...not in time for the hooks to recapture it...but just in time for the half-cock notch. Shortened hammer hooks that are pretty much the status quo in trigger jobs make this more likely to happen, as do reduced-power mainsprings and tweaked sear springs. This is the reason for lightweight triggers. The reduced mass makes it less likely than with a heavy steel trigger.

 

[brentn]

thanks for taking the time to explain that, it makes sense now. I'm pretty sure that I know exactly what your talking about.

Thanks for your patience ;p

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

Mighty welcome, brentn.